Women Driving

nah they always get in the way if the light might turn yellow theyll stop and they have to wait untill they cant see any crs for miles untill they turn their a general inconvience

flatbush27: you gotta be kidding me

blahblah: are you talking about 80 year olds?

blahblah’s describing me lol. but i do have many friends who drive in a way that u would approve of

every wife should be following her baal’s customs. that is what shulchan aruch states.

In my town there are women who use their cars for chesed trips to drive people to hospitals, and medical appointments. They deliver Tomchei Shabbos, they help purchase and deliver clothing for the needy, they take kids to yeshiva in the morning and pick them up at night. They need their car to shop for food, run errands, banking, etc… If you live in NY, perhaps it is easier to get around because there is such a great public transportation system and a car is not as necessary. Try living without a car in LA, Florida, Denver, and many of the suburbs (moshavim) of EY that have a bus come by twice a day, maybe. Tznius has a lot to do with the minhagei hamakom, so if it is not mekubal for the woman to drive-she shouldn’t stand out, but if is the norm in the place where she lives, then she should drive.

josh31, where did you come up with that one about so-called “high impact customs”? nothing of the sort mentioned in Shulchan Aruch. Sounds like something to sooth modern orthodox sensibilities.

I understand that a man has to inform he wife of his minhagim prior to marriage, however, lets not get carried away. Any mature girl would not get so frightened about the idea of not driving. In my opinion, leave petty things like this to “do as u please”. Save disagreements for bigger and better things…(Or just dont do them at all!)

tell me again about how jewishfeminist doesn’t need feminisim because we treat women with such respect. Among the many examples on YWN threads:

* women can’t drive without the husband’s agreement

* women can’t leave the house without the husband’s agreement

* Men are machmir on eruvim, particularly in Brooklyn, because it’s the

women who must remain housebound for years until the last child can walk

while the men are free to come and go

* Men determine for their wives what they can wear and what is considered

tzniyas

* Women are forbidden to learn Gemorra, and probably lack the mental capacity

* Women must walk behind men in a subservient position

* Men are forbidden from opening a door of any kind for a woman

Did I leave any out?

“Any mature girl would not get so frightened about the idea of not driving”

Phyllis, were you serious when you posted that? Any mature girl who has been driving, would tell a man to take a hike if he forbade her from driving, UNLESS it was her own desire to refrain from driving. A mature BOY would recognize that driving is not a luxury, but a necessity nowadays for women, UNLESS he is willing to do the shopping, the carpooling, the general chauffeuring around, the doctor appointments, etc. Somehow, I think that once those guys had a taste of what their wives have to do on a regular basis, most of them would recognize the benefits of their wives driving ASAP.

I’m not saying that’s the way some people do things, but then don’t say women are treated with respect.

everyone just do as you like! if your husband allows it than gr8, lucky you, if not, live with it! but if it is something that means so much to a girl (maybe she really wants to drive for chessed) then it should be discussed prob while dating. I personally know i wouldnt like to give up the freedom that comes with being able to drive and wouldnt be very happy if my husband would demand such of me. guess its something to keep in mind with the list of wants/needs in a shidduch but like good looks it shouldnt be top priority!

Bogen,

There are four sections to Shulchan Aruch. Have you studied all 4?

I have not studied all 4 either. There is also the “fifth section of Shulchan Aruch” called “being civilized” or “common sense”. And you do not suddenly yank the car keys from your new Kallah (bride)!!!

This is not a strictly “Modern Orthodox” concept.

Lesschumros, of course women ARE treated with respect. Women are the essence of the home. Women were given their own precious Mitzvos. Women are the backbone of their husbands.

There is no greater respect than that of a women that accepts her role as an Ikeres Habayis with love, dresses modestly despite the outside influences etc.

Yes, Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Pinima, so maybe that restricts her from certain things, but certainly not things that lessen her respect. In fact its the observance of these basic things u mentioned, that make the women respected.

1) Women should stay inside:

(a) Poskim

1. Shulchan Aruch (73:1): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside. A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…”

i. Gra (4): Hash-m did not create Chavah from Adam’s foot, lest she roam too much (Bereishis Rabah 18:2). “Ishtecha k’Gefen Poriyah” is only when she is modest “b’Yarkesei Veisecha” (Medrash Tehilim 128:3).

(b) Rishonim

1. Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11): A man must give his wife clothing like women normally wear outside in order that she can go to her father or a house of mourning or Simchah. She may go to these places to bestow Chesed to her friends and relatives, in order that they will come to her. She is not a prisoner who may not come and go. However, it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets. A man should prevent his wife from doing so. She should go outside once or twice a month, according to the need. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah”.

i. Source (Magid Mishneh): Bereishis Rabah (45:5) says that when the Torah discusses the detriment of women, it says that they go out – ‘Va’Tetzei Dinah”. The Sifri (Tetzei 242 (23)), regarding a Na’arah Me’orasah who was enticed to Zenus, says that a breach (going out in the city) calls to the thief. Bereishis Rabah (8:12) reads “Kivshuha” like ‘Kavshah’ to teach that a husband should prevent his wife from going out too much.

2. Rambam (Nedarim 12:11): If a woman vowed not to give water to her husband’s animals, he cannot annul it. A wife need not do this for her husband.

i. Kesef Mishneh: A wife must give straw to her husband’s animals, but she need not give water. This is because normally one leaves the house to go to the river or spring for this, and “Kol Kevudah…”

4. Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17): If a man married a woman from a city of the same quality as his own, even if he married her in his city we force him to live in her city. We learn from “Be’ulas Ba’al”… Another reason is because he can go to visit his friends, but she cannot, due to “Kol Kevudah.”

5. Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2): The Ri ha’Levi learns from our Gemara that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to go to Beis Din, due to “Kol Kevudah.” Rather, we send a Shali’ach of Beis Din to hear her claims. The Aruch and R. Chananel agree. The Ramban and Teshuvos of the Rif and Rav Sadya Gaon do not allow this. The Rif allows only that Beis Din send scribes to record her claim. The same applies to a Chacham for whom it is degrading to argue with Amei ha’Aretz in Beis Din; his honor is greater than a woman’s.

i. Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5): The Gemara (Nazir 12a) says that women are Kevu’os due to “Kol Kevudah.”

(c) Gemara

1. (R. Yochanan): Avner told Do’eg ‘We learned that an Amoni and a Mo’avi are forbidden, but an Amonis and a Mo’avis are not!’

2. Question (Do’eg): If so, you should say that a Mitzri is forbidden, not a Mitzris!

3. Answer (Avner): Mo’avim are forbidden “Because they did not go out to greet you with bread and water.” This does not apply to women. It is normal for men to go out to greet, but not for women.

4. Objection (Do’eg): The men should have gone out to greet the men, and the women to greet the women!

5. Avner was silent.

6. Question: How can we answer?

7. Answer #1 (Chachamim of Bavel): “Kol Kevudah Vas Melech Penimah” (it is dishonorable for women to go outside, even to greet women).

8. Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): We learn this from ” … Where is your wife Sarah?” (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)

9. (Beraisa – R. Yehudah): “Amoni” and “Mo’avi” are forbidden, not Amonis and Mo’avis;

10. R. Shimon says, “Because they did not go out …” – it is the way of a man …

11. Nazir 12a (R. Yochanan): If Reuven made a Shali’ach to be Mekadesh an unspecified woman and the agent died, Reuven may not marry any woman (Leah), lest the Shali’ach was Mekadesh Leah’s relative to Reuven.

12. Question (Reish Lakish): When a Hekdesh bird flies away, we are not concerned about other birds (lest it is the Hekdesh bird; we follow the majority. The same should apply here (most women are not Leah’s relatives)!

13. Answer (R. Yochanan): Because woman do not roam, the Safek is considered Kavu’a (fixed), so we don’t follow the majority.

15. Gitin 12a (Beraisa): If a wife was exiled to a refuge city, her husband must feed her. He can tell her to feed herself from her earnings only if she earns enough to feed herself.

16. Question: If she can earn enough, this is obvious!

17. Answer: One might have thought that due to “Kol Kevudah…”, she need not work and he must feed her. The Beraisa teaches that this is not so.

18. Shevu’os 30a – Question: What is the source that (women are invalid witnesses, so) Shevu’as ha’Edus does not apply to women?

19. Answer (Beraisa): “V’Omdu Shnei ha’Anashim” refers to the witnesses.

20. Question: Perhaps it refers to the parties in the case!

21. Answer #1: The Torah would not say “men”, for women also need to come for judgment.

22. Answer #2: If you prefer, you can learn from “Shnei” (masculine).

23. Question: What objection might one have to the first answer?

24. Answer: Normally women do not come to Beis Din for judgment (rather, they send a man to plead their case), due to “Kol Kevudah…”

uhh oomis, sorry for offending your very sensitive modern orthodox feelings. But everything in my preceding comment were verbatim quotes from the Gemora, Shulchan Aruch, Rambam and many other meforshim. NONE of it were my own words or chiddushim. So the problem you have you’ll have to take up with the Shulchan Aruch, not me.

And btw, Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu looked towards Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov Avinu for all their guidance.

Yeah, I know. Your MO Rabbi never mentioned any of this in his “Shabbat speeches”.

“And btw, Sara, Rivka, Rochel, and Leah Emainu looked towards Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov Avinu for all their guidance.

Yeah, I know. Your MO Rabbi never mentioned any of this in his “Shabbat speeches”

No they did not, NOT when it counted the most. Sara threw hagar out with Avraham’s bechor Yishmael. She didn’t ask his permission. Rivka took the brachos meant for Esav out of Yitchak’s hands, and made sure Yaakov got them. She didn;’t ask his permission. Rochel took her father’s idols, to keep him from doing avoda zara. She didn’t ask Yaakov’s permission (and ended up dying for that, but then again, it was al kiddush Hashem that she did what she did, and that is why she is the one who is mevaka al baneha and no one else) Leah did not ask her husband’s permission to be with him. She gave her son’s flowers to Rachel, and then informed her husband that he was going to be with her that night.

BTW, you know nothing about me, yet you make what superficially sounds like pejorative comments about my MO sensitivities, and even more, you comment about my Rov, about whom you surely have no basis or right to make what appears to be a negative judgment. I will stack my rov and his shabbos drashas against yours any day. My rov is an extremely learned man a musmach of Torah Vadaas, and your “MO Rabbi” comment was unworthy and abysmally off-base. I understand that your comments all come from choshuvah sources, but are they all halacha l’maiseh, or opinions about women’s behavior, from a time when ALL women were totally subservient to men, and NOT treated at equal partners in their marriages? And again, I will reiterate, if what you say is halacha, then there is no excuse for even one kollel wife to be out working instead of running her home. Period.

“Sara threw hagar out with Avraham’s bechor Yishmael. She didn’t ask his permission.”

I remember learning that H-m had to tell Avraham that Sara is right and Yishmoel and Hagar should be sent away. If Sara was able to accomplish this without Avraham’s permission/consent, why did H-m have to speak to him about this?

EDITED at the request of the original poster

Zalman (if you will respond):

You are not new here, so you probably already have an answer to my question:

How do you reconcile “Kol Kavod Bas Melech” with Kollel wives working?

Also, do you have electricity? a Fridge? Internet? You are already not “living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai”. You sound like you want the Jews to be Amish following Halacha, not Jews (Who invented “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”).

Lastly, with your shittos, what are you doing on the internet? Did you ask your Rav if you could be in the coffeeroom?

Get back to me after you ask.

Also, do you have electricity? a Fridge? Internet? You are already not “living in the ways of our holy zeidas and bubbes, as they have since Matan Sinai”. You sound like you want the Jews to be Amish following Halacha, not Jews (Who invented “when in Rome, do as the Romans do”).

Modern technology that works with the torah is fine. We don’t open a light on shabbos but we use lights. No one is saying that we have to live exactly the way Avraham lived but we can’t change our hashkofos because modern times are “different”.

Mod: I meant all references (Zalmans & Oomis). If you leave theirs, please leave mine as well.

intellegent:

Of course if your Rav asks you not to drive, Kol Hakavod.

Personally, I dont understand the minhag issue. How could someone have a minhag for their wife not to drive? (unless it was not to have a woman as a Baal Agalah, which is irrelevent to driving a car) 🙂

intellegent:

That is not to say they should be in the street/Shuk! That falls under “Kol Kavod”. Driving is a personal thing with no interaction.

If you are from EY, as we have seen (in the news with the bochrim kicked out of yeshiva) the Gedolim there don’t allow men to drive, so there it is some other sort of svorah.

Some customs are clearly incompatible with each other. Women not driving and men in Kollel is impossible, unless they have a huge trust fund.

Communities in which women do not drive are those in which they never started driving and men are expected to provide the total family income and run all errands needing a car.

Nothing will push people away from keeping Torah and Mitzvos more than pushing impossible ideals.

Chassidic customs were intended to draw people towards Judaism, not create impractical barriers to living.

A woman who actually drives will feel “jailed” if she is suddenly told that she can no longer drive.

If the hardliners are triumphant and impose a full raft of impractical Chumros (stringencies), we will have a breakaway from Judaism (G-d forbid) worse than the Haskalah triggered breakaway 150 years ago in Europe.

intellegent:

You were not clear before (seemed you said the opposite), but thank you for clarifying.

I agree 100% that Jewish women in prior generations were treated with respect (which is the torah way)(and much better than the other women btw), and should be treated with respect today as well. If they wish to drive, why not? (assuming their rav has not stated it is “assur”, of course).

Postscript: “Kol Kavod” is a “Hanhaga”, not an “Issur”.

“and the fact that for 3,000 years women were treated a certain way, was not always due to halacha, but to the tenor of the times.”

I think it is highly improper to criticize previous generations in this way. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you really mean to say.

gavra_at_work

I’m not sure what you were referring to, opposite of what?