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and men doing women’s jobs. Just like in Mitzrayim.
Women policemen, women soldiers, women football players, construction workers, lawyers, mechanics, fork-lift operators, doctors, managers, plumbers, engineers, electricians, truck drivers, etc.
And on the other side of the token, men secretaries, men nurses, childcare, hairdressers, housekeepers, domestic servants, receptionists, etc.
Western society has fallen very low. They’ve reached the point where they outright deny that certain jobs are meant to be male whereas other jobs are meant to be female We Yidden need to be vigilant not to fall so low with them. On our own fringes (even here!) you can nebech sometimes hear voices expressing this same contemporary western value.
I thought that Jewish men were supposed to be learning and teaching Torah, leaving all the other stuff for women. If it is okay for a man to be bitul Torah in order to do things like play soldier, work in sports and entertainment, construct things, sell things, practice medicine, why shouldn’t women. Indeed, many jobs the goyim consider to be “male” can just as easily be done by women, and often better. Why should halacha look at what the local goyim (in our cases, Euro-American Christians) consider to be a gender role (note that many goyim consider it to be “unmanly” for a male to spend all his time reading books, learning, etc. – to them, those are female traits).
Feminists (and democrats as a whole) want the same outcome as פרעה
One of the major financial supporters of my shul is a woman doctor. Should we give back the money and ask her to leave the shul?
I agree with the premise of this post, but not the details – there is a vast difference between a woman who wants to be a doctor, and a woman who wants to be a construction worker, electrician, plumber, car mechanic, etc…the masculinity attached to blue collar work is not arbitrary, or the result of western definition of gender roles. I would also add stress-related jobs such as surgeons, CEOs of companies..people whose quick decision making abilities have dramatic consequences and who need to be able to work well under pressure. Psychologically, studies show that women have a lower threshold for stress and are more easily overwhelmed (experience tells me this as well).
Women are also naturally more passive, so leadership roles generally are not appropriate – women who are aggressive tend to be more disliked by their employees (specifically their female employees) than men, because a man who is assertive is the norm, and for a woman it is feigned or exaggerated beyond socially acceptable parameters. I can quote the peer-reviewed studies I’ve seen to this effect if necessary.
ujm, if you think there’s something “not frum” about women going to law school or medical school, you’re very ignorant.
Doctors and lawyers are not “men’s jobs”, unless you’re stuck in some pre-1960 fantasy world. In reality, there are more women than men in medical school and law school, in the U.S. You’re trying to define “frumkeit” by the world of your Zeides and Bubbes, but there’s nothing frum about nostalgia.UJM you just turned in your man card because I’ve worked with women electricians that forgotten more than you’ll ever know.
What a shameful and ignorant post. Unless this is trolling, which you have done a great job.
It’s pretty much a known fact, that there are such things called man jobs and such things called woman jobs. And women can’t start taking man jobs just like that, and vice versa. Jewish Men do have a chiyuv in talmud torah, but also have a chiyuv in providing for his household. That means (in most cases) that he needs to go out and work. (And let’s say he is a rebbi, women cannot be teachers for boys for limudei kodesh. Just doesn’t work that way.
A major financial supporter of my shul is a woman doctor with a highly profitable practice. Should the shul turn down her contributions and give back the money she has donated over the years? Is she taking money that rightfully be going to a man like ujm?
So, ujm, do you think you can get into – and out of – medical school? If so, I will talk to the woman and ask whether she will turn over her practice to you.
Frankly I dont care who unclogges my toilet so long as the job is done right
Most jobs that both men and women used to do are currently done by machines and computers. most of the jobs we have now, did not exist before. A modern soldier running a drone may require more “feminine” fine motor skills manipulating the joystick, patience to select the right shooting angle, and multi-tasking skills to chat with her superiors and review old videos while killing the enemy.
UJM, firefighters take physical ability tests. Kinda like the military, walk, run, carry a pack that weighs x number of lbs, obstacle runs etc. This is how things work post 1960.
AAQ – the army is a whole different story…it is assur for a woman to carry arms, and it is very contrary in itself to tznius for a woman to be in the military, in any capacity.
Amil – what ujm is referring to is a push by the liberals to lower the requirements imposed by employers in fields like firefighting, the military, and others which until now excluded most women by default.
In 2015, Rav’ Aharon Leib Shteinman, Z’L, sent a letter to an Agudah/Degel conference on higher education for Chareidi young women in which he insisted that girls not attend college and be educated exclusively “framework of Bais Yaakov”. In the intervening time, studies have shown a substantial increase in the number of frum women attending college, many in special programs designed to address the usual concerns. While still the exception, women are getting out of the kitchen into boardrooms, operating rooms, courtrooms. Check carefully next time before you schedule a root canal or colonoscopy or fight a traffic ticket. Also, make sure that the local first responders know NOT to dispatch a woman to your home and just wait until the right “guy” becomes available. .
Chazal many times refers to women as ביתו (first mishna of yuma and many other places), and it teaches us that women are the house, meaning they take care of the house. Men go and make money.
Now, if you have a female lawyer who gives lots of money to your shul, I’m not saying to send her away, but in values, they should be the ones in the house. It’s just these feminists who are looking always at the diamonds of everyone else, and they can’t see their diamonds in their own pockets.Avira, I agree on the Army, I do not recommend an Army career to girls, of course. I just brought this as an extreme example of a UAV pilot who sits on an American base and goes home to kids every night.
what is the nature of Isur handling guns, I am not familiar. Can a Texan maidele open carry or does she need to limit her self-protection to mace?
UJM
As terrible as the avla you cite is, It starts much more insidiously.
There are nashim on this forum who think their opinions matter. Worse- many of them dare disagree with men, and in a public forum no less. It is a terrible terrible chilul Hashem and Zuilzul Kvod shomayim and Kovod habriyos, both their own Kavod (Kol kvuda bas melech pnima) and that of the man whose opinion is questioned.
In the rare case that an isha has finished cleaning the home tending to the children , and IF her baal gives her permission to log on to yeshiva world, all she should do is drink in the words of wisdom left here. If she must comment, again with her baal’s permission, a simple “Yes wise master thank you for sharing your words of wisdom” is all that should be tolerated
“Chazal many times refers to women as ביתו (first mishna of yuma and many other places), and it teaches us that women are the house, meaning they take care of the house. ”
no it doesn’t. How do people make up ignorant comments and then post them as information? The women is Beiso because she is the home, not because she is supposed to stay in the home. And if you want the ACTUAL definition of what it means for a woman to be the home, go ask someone reliable to teach it to you instead of making up stupidities to misrepresent Torah values.
AAQ – it’s in nazir 59a, that women cannot carry arms. We see that yael killed sisra with a peg instead of a sword, and the meforshim say it was because of this reason. Some allow a woman to carry a gun for self protection; see igros moshe o.c. vol 4 75.
GH – Here’s the deal. I am equally frustrated and disgusted by the way a couple posters deliberately present halachos, hashkofos or minhagim in the most offensive and degrading way they can. They find a sick pleasure in rattling more modern thinkers even at the risk of misrepresenting yiddeshkeit and committing aveiros of their own in the pleasure they get in bugging others and rationalizing aveiros as mitzvos.
Having said that – that may be where we part ways. It is well and good to be disgusted over their bizui of Torah values, but you can’t take the extra step and conflate what you would like/what culture espouses/what sounds palatable with what Hashem wants from us. You have to go with halacha whether you like it or not, and if you don’t then understand it was your personal choice, and not that halacha was supposed to move over and make room for you.
But the best thing we all could do, which unfortunately isn’t doable, is to stop responding to their ill behavior. If he was begging for heroin it would be easier to walk away, if only we could stop feeding their empty spaces maybe their words would more easily fall on deaf ears. The danger is that for some crazy reason people will point to these distorters of emes as if they are the bottom line, and be turned off of the halacha and lifestyles we should be living. When actually their are better people to converse with on these matters.
Syag…the halachik requirements a woman has to her husband and children would support the understanding that a woman has the role of a homemaker. The sources for this I’m sure have been reiterated on this forum many times, so I’m not going to bother quoting them. It doesn’t mean that women are not supposed to work in addition to their household duties…women had income in the times of chazal as well.
The obvious sources are vetaytzei leah, dina, the rambam on not leaving the house often, meforshim on the Pasuk “where is sara your wife? To which avraham said “be’ohel”…
I think the root of the drive for “progress” in most social movements has been the understanding that the most important goal in life is freedom to do what one pleases and the opportunity to pursue material success. I think idealistic feminists who champion the causes of female autonomy and their religiously kinded detractors do not understand each other and have different value systems. To a feminist, the absolute sum of one’s life is olam hazeh and how much one can materialistically, creatively, and intellectually accomplish. This is severely diminished by the established gender roles and society formula of most civilizations which have existed until recently. It is therefore an unforgivable crime against the female gender to inhibit them, pay them less, expect them to marry and reproduce, relegate them to certain fields of occupation and expect them to fulfill a traditional role in a family dynamic raising children and keeping house. The feminist is enraged at depriving women that which he/she believes to be the greatest achievement of their lives. Any progress towards the goal of this Integration into corporate/working society is lauded as a step closer to a messianic redemption from subjugation.
The religiously minded person looks at things very differently. For us, the world is merely a corridor to olam haba. Our activities in olam hazeh are worthwhile only insofar as they lead us to our purpose, as outlined in mesilas yeshorim perek 1. A job can and usually is part of that mission; not because of the independent importance of success, but because it is fulfilling a mitzvah that men have to provide for their families; it also offers a person the opportunity to fulfill the mitzvah of being honest in business, not wasting time while working on the boss’ cheshbon, paying workers on time, not charging interest, and a slew of other mitzvos that relate to work. It also occupies our minds and keeps us from sinning.
If that is the value of work, to a ben Torah it matters not what sort of job he has. It is helpful for self esteem to have a “bakavodik” job if one is affected by such things, but that is tangential.
In this value system, when a woman who had a massively successful career comes to shomayim, it will matter not how honorable her position was, how much she made, the sacrifices she made to get there, the extensive effort and years spent in school…all will not count towards her reward. “אין יתרון לאדם”, koheles says that one does not benefit from hard work in the end…all that matters is sof davar, hakol nishma, es haelokim yirah…fearing God and fulfilling his mitzvos, ki zeh kol haadam, for this is the entirety of man.
Then, what is the cause of celebration if a woman is now able to find employment more than 50 years ago? Does it matter at all in the olam ha’emes? Does it help her get more olam haba and serve Hashem? Or is it self service – the pursuit of success for one’s honor and the amassing of wealth, at the expense of sacrificing the joys in this world and the next of children and a family.
Avirah – forgive me for not bothering to read your long post, this is a response to the short one. Your answer just confirms what I have been saying to you here and there, there is more to communicating, educating, and teaching than just stating the rules.
I didn’t say anything at all about the woman working. I was responding to the poster displaying the lack of understanding of being a home and being at home. Anyone who doesn’t know the difference, or doesn’t want to acknowledge the difference (as elaborated on by true gedolim and talmidei chochomim) has no business discussing this topic on this forum or any other public venue.Ober > it teaches us that women are the house, meaning they take care of the house. Men go and make money.
There are plenty of examples and halochos how women in business or with inheritance are treated in. I am not versed well enough to give a general expose, but it is respectful rathe than telling them to go home and give the keys to their husbands. Maybe some more learned people here can help us with sources.
The simple meaning of ביתו is the same as the way the tanna refers to his clothes as מכבדותא in the list of things that he called by their purpose – not that the clothes are kavod thensleves, but that they honor the one who wears them… Referring to his wife as beisa was because she was the akerew habayis.
Your interpretation is in the realm of drush, that not only is she the homemaker, but she is the “home” of the family
AAQ – you just got stuck on the flypaper
For greater understanding of what I actually meant, speak to a rav who works with the public and has an open house to all types. Not only will he know what to say, he will also know how to say it.
Avira > Nazir 59
thanks. I don’t think this is a full answer. Gemora learns that women should not carry weapons because men go to war in the context of prohibiting cross-dressing both ways. So, this is not saying that women should not go to war, but it is about dress code under assumption that weapons are for men. if a society has women in the Army, then this might not apply. And if Norks introduce longer skirts for their warriottes, there will be even less of a problem!As to Yael’s choice of a peg, Gemora again means exactly that – she did not want to violate Tzniyut rather than prohibition to fight. Otherwise, she would not be allowed to hit him with anything. Pshat seems to be that Yael is sure of her ability to bring her peg from outside and use it, while not having her own sword (see above), she would need to get access to Sisra’ sword (who might wake up hearing the sound of his weapon) and then risk using a long heavy sharp device she never used in her life. Lesson – know yourself and use what you know. Maybe she did not want to steal from Sisra for no reason also!
Know yourself and use what you know? Not unless you use what you know in accordance with what Torah allows. You often make statements like “than this may not apply” but it is not always used in the correct context. Society doing things is not enough to make things okay. There’s much more to it.
If any of the men on this forum would offer to support me financially for the rest of their lives so that I can spend my time baking brownies, knitting, and learning Chumash…it’s a deal.
I’ll even share the brownies with him.UJM
“ubiq: Your letzanus is duly noted.”
same!
I’m glad we get each other.
Looking forward to your chanukah present thread.“Can you imagine the idiocy of fire departments being forced to lower their physical standards to accept women firemen?”
That isn’t done, at least in the US for unionized (and many non-unionized) fire departments. The same physical standards apply to all candidate firefighters. The International Association of Fire Fighters developed its Candidate Physical Ability Test in collaboration with ten large fire departments (including FDNY) and it is widely seen as a standard.
“also have a chiyuv in providing for his household”
Apparently all the ketubot have been nullified in the current generation in order to create mass kollel.
“The entire corpus of halachic Seforim *explicitly* define Kol Kevuda Bas Melech Penima as meaning that a woman’s place is at home”
Obviously those Seforim have also been nullified.
“the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) and many other localities and jurisdictions *lowered* physical standards to become a firefighter, specifically in order to facilitate enrolling female firefighters”
I work at FDNY. The same standards apply to men and women.
“Women policemen, women soldiers, women football players, construction workers, lawyers, mechanics, fork-lift operators, doctors, managers, plumbers, engineers, electricians, truck drivers, etc.”
My wife is a frum doctor. A lot of other female frum doctors live in my community. And I teach future female frum doctors.
“And on the other side of the token, men secretaries, men nurses, childcare, hairdressers, housekeepers, domestic servants, receptionists, etc.”
Among the men who have worked as secretaries in the past was future President Lyndon Johnson. He became the secretary for a newly elected Congressman in 1931. Less than six years later he became a Congressman himself.
“Otherwise, she would not be allowed to hit him with anything. ”
Pikuach nefesh overrides most prohibitions, including that one. (If there actually is such a prohibition. It is a mitzvah to kill rodfim.)
I think that most instances of a doctor being mentioned in the Gemara, it was a woman. Even if not most, it was pretty prevalent.
Although the main way of making money — travel, trade, and labor — was not commonly available to women, hence the necessity for the Kesubah arrangement, there were some jobs that allowed then to earn more. This included being a doctor. Today there are plenty more opportunities, which can even satisfy Tznius.
It should never be about hampering or hindering. Tznius is a value, not a lock.
I’m not saying that women can’t work. They should work.
In fact, nowadays it is the norm for a frum family to have their mother working too. I’m saying that in perspective, the Husband is the provider. Nowadays many yungerman learn in kollel and their wife works, and that’s great. But to have female soldiers and police are a bit too farfetched. Women (I think) can be Nurses, Teachers, Doctors, hairdressers, designers, artists, composers, (not sure about lawyers) many more jobs. My point about Beiso was as follows: Who makes the supper in your house? The Mother of the house (Your wife). Who does the laundry? Who spends more time in the house? You know the answer already.And just tell me where in the gemara it has a women doctor (I’m not doubting it, I’m curious)
Sorry that I can’t pull up exact sources right now. It is mentioned as an option for a woman to want to differ from the arrangement of the Kesubah, I believe. Reb Yochanan visited a woman doctor. Abaye’s mother was a doctor, and is quoted several times such as on Shabbos פרק רבי אליעזר דמילה.
I also do not recall women doctors in Gemora, mostly witches or similar type healers.
Halakha requires women to not be idle. In good old times, women spent time doing necessary work of laundry, cooking, carrying water, making clothes, and teaching kids manners and emunah. due to our sins of insatiable curiosity, men invented lots of machines that wash clothes, microwave food, and make clothes; kids are sent to school at early age to learn alef-beis and not to listen to parents. In response, women raised their standards of required home cleanliness, fashions, and food quality. Good. Now, we have illegal immigrants doing the rest of the chores. What are women supposed to do? The only remaining task is to teach kids emunah, but kids are at school. They can’t be reading CR the whole day.
One side effect is that in some communities the only accepted job is teaching. This is good as it creates a pool of cheap teachers, as it should be (same was true in pre-industrial US in general). But then some who do work as teachers do not really want to do it, but have to. And this crates terrible effect on kids. Merit-based hiring could solve the problem, but often prevented by preference for hoshuve families.
Like any other chiyuv mamon, a kesuva can be nimchal; kolel is not negating a ksuvah, it’s merely a choice that some people (valiantly) make. As for the ideal of a woman being at home, it’s just that – an ideal situation, but not always feasible. Especially nlwas6, as AAQ wrote – the pitfalls of batalah mayviah lidei znus/shigaon are worse than the chisaron of being “out” a lot.
The Kesubah is an agreement, not a Halachah Sefer. It is comical how people point to it as a complaint against learning in Kollel.
But even more important, the agreement is that the husband will give her what she needs. If she brings in money, which brings to him according to the Kesubah agreement and she gets what she needs, that is in full accordance with the Kesubah.
It would not be a violation of kesuba if both sides agree, but you need to be concerned about informed agreement. If a girl is taught that the husbands not working is a mitzva and then she would need to be poretz geder to expect husband to do that, then it might be questionable whether she is freely agreeing. Maybe kollels should have an annual anonymous survey of wives to hear what they desires and needs really are. Rosh kollel’s wife could be a good source. One of baalei musar, sorry do not remember the name, was giving a shiur after shabbos maariv until his wife whispered to him “they have wives”. He broke the schmooze in the middle of the sentence and sent them home. Not clear to me whether he was completely unaware about that, and whether the wife included herself in that list 😉
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