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“Meno- so your saying that by sometimes wearing shorter skirts im sending people to gehinom? i dont think so…”
Inadvertently, but that’s still not great
Sparkly, it’s not a feeling – it’s the Halacha, and feelings don’t change the halacha.
lilmod,
I was trying to figure out how to respond. I like your response. Thank you
Thanks Meno. Do you happen to have a source off-hand? It might be helpful. I think there’s a teshuva in Igros Moshe, but I don’t have it here.
“Kreivah L’Arayos might be Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor, but it’s still only a Lav. Shabbos is an Issur Skilah. Shabbos is more Chamur. Kreivah has one Chumra attached because of its status as Abizraihu, not on its own merit. “
Foolish
Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor overrides Shabbos
However, k’reivah (touching) of a single girl is a machlokes whether it is at all Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor
Sorry, I’m not a source guy
To me it just makes sense though.
Sparkly – did you say what?
“Kreiva” is not defined as, or by, touching.
It is time for Truth – I know it’s a machlokes, but the fact is that there is an opinion that way and I don’t think there is a psak on it, so I think we should take it pretty seriously!!!
I also suspect that many/most people who aren’t shomer negiah end up being over on things that are definitely yaihareig v’al yaavor.
Thanks for supporting me on Yaihareig v’al yaavor being worse than chilul Shabbos. I wasn’t 100% sure of it – not enough to argue back – it just made sense to me.
And I did hear a certain Gadol (I forgot who) quoted as saying that tznius is more important than Shabbos
Sparkly, I am sure you are well-intentioned and honest in bringing your question here, but it should be abundantly clear to you that you will get several people who see you even setting foot in a college or university as the height of pritzus, citing kol kevodah bas melech pnimah and several other sources; on the other hand you will hear from several who believe you make the best of it and seek guidance on how to behave in such environments. You won’t get a clear answer.
At the end of the day, though, Use your Yiddishe kop! If you feel that you dont have self control, find some or change your environment. If you do have it and have the blessing of your biggest supports, your parents, then go ahead and don’t listen to the naysayers.
I may be making an assumption, but your parents invested in educating you Jewishly. have the respect for them and those who built the schools you went to, and use what they taught you!
Just a recap for the folks following along at home, it’s a bit hard to follow:
lilmod ulelamaid: “Not being tznius is also one of the biggest aveiros because you are sending to people to Gehinnom which is the greatest act of cruelty a person can perform.”
Sparkly: “i highly doubt people wear not tznius clothes to be cruel to others they just think their being pretty.”
Meno: “So they’re sending people to gehinnom inadvertently. That’s not so great either.”
Sparkly: “so your saying that by sometimes wearing shorter skirts im sending people to gehinom? i dont think so…”
lilmod ulelamaid: “Uh, Sparkly, hate to break it to you, I guess this is something you haven’t learned yet, but you are actually… When you cause people to do aveiros, you are sending them to gehenom. That’s the reason why people get so upset about girls dressing untzniusly! If it didn’t affect anyone else, people wouldn’t shrei about it so much since it would just be a personal decision.”
Meno: “Inadvertently, but that’s still not great”
Sparkly: “Meno – i shouldve added im sorry if you feel that way.”
lilmod ulelamaid: “Sparkly, it’s not a feeling – it’s the Halacha, and feelings don’t change the halacha.”
Sparkly: “lilmod ulelamaid – did i say that?”
lilmod ulelamaid: “Sparkly – did you say what?”
Meno: lol.
Sparkly: I was referring to your saying “Meno – i shouldve added im sorry if YOU FEEL that way”.
My response was, “It’s not a feeling, it’s a halacha.” In other words, he doesn’t FEEL that way, since it’s not about feelings; he was telling you what the halacha says.
Sparkly, that’s the point. If you are going to College, you are an adult. Do whatever you want. You have bechiroh chofshis. Make good choices about where you go and who you associate with. But take personal responsibility for your choices.
It’s your choice to live a positive Torah influenced life, or not.
If you have had a Torah education, in school or at home; if you’ve had a Torah hashpo’oh, at school, shul or at home; if you have yiras shomayim and kovod for your fellow man and woman; if you have a modicum of derech eretz, and a capacity for critical thinking, you are well equipped and should be confident of maintaining your Torah standards (and influencing others) in most environments.
One last observation. You have used the phrase “I heard” this and “I heard” that. You will “hear” many opinions, many hashkafos, and many remarks that may have made sense in the context of a shiur or shmuess, but are otherwise out of context. Again, take responsibility. If you “hear” a Torah perspective, and you want to understand how it can influence your world view, do some research. learn a little, look up sources and come to your own conclusions.
“i heard the 2 things that make someone a religious jew is shabbos and kosher”
This was probably true (along with taharas hamishpacha) in the 1930s.
In both the workplace and school there are regulation governing “Unwanted Touching” called EEO Regulations so you shouldn’t feel uncomfortable about not shaking hands.
There are only three sins that you should be killed rather than commit: 1) worship idols 2) murder another Jew 3) commit an immoral act with the opposite sex. Touching is prohibited by the sages and would fall under this last category. If on the other hand the choice was between eating ham and living or keeping kosher and dying you should eat the ham and live. Likewise if you had a choice of work on Shabbos and live or keep the Shabbos and die you should work on Shabbos.
You are going to college which is a sea of knowledge, be careful that you are not swept away by a riptide from your Jewish heritage.
In the year 2016 would you really call someone a religious Jew if for example they ate chametz on pesach or disregarded the mitzvah of succah or the arbah minim?
Sparkly: “apushatayid – yes but NOT religious. you CANT stop being jewish… i would consider a guy in my class who is otd who came into school on yom kippur to take a test otd and jewish. he CANT stop being jewish.”
Apushatayid asked you if you would consider this guy religious.
I would like to personally apologize for my comments regarding poster’s writing style. It served no purpose except to offend. I am truly sorry to all who were offended.
edited
29 – you do a great job of moderating! Shkoyach! I am just wondering why you do let certain things go through. For example, I wonder why you let Abba’s original comments go through. Also, personally, I have been feeling very harassed by a particular person who has been quite rude to me. Although I realize that it is due to his own inferiority complex, it is still a bit upsetting.
That being said, I realize that sometimes there are grey areas and it is probably difficult to know when to let something through & when to leave it to the posters’ own judgment and ability to respond. But I am wondering if it would be possible to delete a bit more often?
How do the moderators know we are Jewish? I don’t remember – did we have to give any info when we signed up?
Sparkly,
“i dont think anyone has thanked you before for moderating”
Plenty of people have thanked them before.
lilmod ulelamaid,
“But I am wondering if it would be possible to delete a bit more often?”
I’m pretty sure there was a thread started a few days ago complaining that the mods delete too much
Meno: “I’m pretty sure there was a thread started a few days ago complaining that the mods delete too much”
And therefore?
All the more reason why I felt it necessary to state my opinion on the matter.
I didn’t really add anything here so I may as well
When i was 13 I wrote
Royalty is us princesses who are noble and fine
Ruby’s saphires and diamond
Each one can glow and shine
But only when put away can it be secure
The same is with us because we are so very pure
We must be modest and refined as can be
We are of better quality cause bas Melech ani
Would think poem is quite mediocre but the message is straight. Tznius is something you should do for yourself not because men might be oiver or look at you a certain way. A woman’s body is a beautiful because hashem created it with his own hands from the part of Adam that was hidden and said “tehai eesha tzneea”. The same way a beautiful sefer torah is covered up so too our body’s are like that.
HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!
I was in the supermarket and saw these two guys standing there and looking at frum erlicha tzniusdiga girls and rating them…those gurls were even nerdy looking and yet there will always be guys out there that are bored and i dont think that those girls would “go to gehinom” for attracting boys attention. I have to say maybe we should teach the boys not to view women as objects for pleasure.
And let’s not forget men have tznius rules as well.it isn’t just in the garment it’s your whole being.
Happygirlygirl – beautiful poem for a 13 year old! I am impressed.
Regarding the supermarket maaseh – if the girls didn’t do anything wrong they won’t be punished. But when someone does something wrong, they are punished. If a girl dresses untzniusly, she is responsible for causing others to do an aveira.
That being said, it’s also important to remember that there is another reason for being tznius. If girls realized how demeaning it is to dress untzniusly, they wouldn’t do it. If the girls realized how the boys think, they wouldn’t dress that way. Everyone should listen to Rav Orlofsky’s tape on platonic relationships. It’s about negiah, but I think the things he says apply to tznius as well.
good point about boys being tznius as well. But it’s still primarily a Mitzvah that belongs to us. Go us!!
Good for you Sparkly!
Now I got my answer about you being a girl ….yeah go US!!!
Happygirlygirl – lol 🙂
Sparkly – me. She thought I was a boy
This is a mans world but it would be nothing without a woman or a girlllll-it’s a song
“Behind every great man stands an even greater woman”
Right on Sparkly & Happygirlygirl!! I think that is the Torah’s attitude! I say “sheasani kirtzono” every morning with lots of kavana & feel really bad for those who don’t get this!
Sparkly – 🙂
Sparkly: “can you say hi to a guy that your family friends with at college?”
1. Who are you asking?
2. I thought you hang out with guys?
3. Ask your Rabbi.
Happygirlygirl – i agree. thats why i dont talk to guys that are like that.
— Sparkly
Snort.
LuL: 2. I thought you hang out with guys?
2. Yeah, but not “guys who are like that”, so maybe she wants to know if a guy is like that, but is a “family friend”, can she say hello.
3. We’ve already established that Sparkly doesn’t have a legitimate Rabbi.
Yekke2 : “We’ve already established that Sparkly doesn’t have a legitimate Rabbi.”
No, we only established that he wasn’t legitimate if he really said that it’s okay to not be shomer negiah, and she acknowledged that he hadn’t really said that.
I do agree in general that one should use caution when telling someone to “ask their Rabbi” when they are seeking advice, since you don’t know who their Rabbi is. That is why I usually don’t fall back on that response.
In this case, though, I thought it was the appropriate response, since: a) I do have the impression (although I can’t be sure) that Sparkly does have a Rabbi who is both legit and good for her right now, and b) this is the kind of question that can’t really be answered online, and it would be too easy for someone to misunderstand the answer and misapply it. It is the type of question that really needs to be discussed in person since it is part of a much larger and personal issue. Truthfully, a Rebbetzin might be a better option, if she has one, since people do have to exercise great caution when discussing these types of issues with members of the opposite gender. I have been hearing too many horror stories lately.
“Yeah, but not “guys who are like that”, so maybe she wants to know if a guy is like that, but is a “family friend”, can she say hello.”
If that were the case, it should have been included in the question.
Sparkly: “can you say hi to a guy that your family friends with at college?”
Sparkly, as I wrote in my above response to yekke2, it is best to find someone (preferably a female) to discuss these issues with in person since they are not “yes and no”, “black and white” issues, and they do involve a discussion and not a yes or no answer.
If you don’t have someone to discuss it with, my personal opinion is that you should not refrain from ever speaking to members of the other gender (saying hello to a family friend is appropriate), BUT you should try to work on establishing more boundaries for yourself (this could be a matter of not being friends with guys who are not shomer negiah, or not having guys in your apartment, for examples).
That’s just my opinion – take it or leave it.
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