Women Learning Gemara

*yawn*

*kapusta*

Personally, I’m glad I’m not obligated to learn it. I don’t have the time to invest in it, and I would really not find it satisfying. With all this, I still not only have tremendous respect for gemara but I spend considerable effort facilitating its being learned by members of my family.

Does it say don’t teach, or does it say, women should not learn. The difference being that there is no mitzvah of talmud torah, but if they choose to on their own, their is nothing wrong on their part.

In todays bais yackov type high schools and seminaries girls may not sit down in front of a gemara, but they certainly learn gemara. Many meforshei tanach routinely refer to gemaras in their explanations of pesukim and when learning these meforshim in depth, these sources are learned. Many of the things we say in the haggada on leil pesach are torah she baal peh, is there a posek anywhere that says, send the women out at these parts? It implies there is nothing implicitely wrong with learning a gemara. I don’t know what the mechaber etc.. mean, but it is difficult to say it is absolutely forbidden for them to be exposed to and even taught on some level, torah she baal peh. (The next statement is superfluos, but the CR being what it is, I feel compelled to write it) Obviously I am not saying anything lihalacha, I don’t even know if what I wrote is true, they are merely observations that say “look into this further”.

Tzippi: You are pretty much on target. Bruria and Rashi’s daughter notwithstanding, a woman’s place is in the home – making sure her husband can learn, and that her children are properly cared for. Not that we are any less “smart” we just need to use our “smarts” in different ways.

apushatayid: and as a Bais Yaakov student I skipped any number of homework assignments as my litvishe father felt it was very wrong for us to be opening up a gemara (happened rarely), and even material from my notes, he was not happy with what some of our teachers were teaching us. They, along with their husbands, spent countless hours over Torah Sheh Ba’al Peh which, in his halachic opinion was very wrong.

oomis post which completely distorts the Gemorah and she draws ugly and twisted conclusions from it, (based soley on her own personal values and understanding) and speaks disparigingly about a Tannah!, unbelievable! is the very answer to the original post as to why women dont learn Gemorrah.

the ridiculous and destructive post was allowed to stand only because it so well illustrates the issue.

Haha Moderator, good job.

It seems that the issue is not women’s capacity for gemara learning but its effect on them. For men Torah sheba’al peh is a yoke that captures their minds and dampens their ta’avos to do things they shouldn’t. For women apparently it not only fails to capture their minds but somehow inspires a spirit of rebellion against a Torah hashkafa and creates a dangerous egotism and overconfidence that leads to transgression. This is from the sodos shel olam — the basic differences in the briah of men and women that no amount of intellectual discourse will shed any light on. Those who make a feminist or male chauvinist agenda out of this by making it strictly an issue of women’s intelligence vis-a-vis men are being intellectually dishonest.

I agree with Mod 80 that leaving up oomis’ post (with Mod 80’s disclaimer) serves two purposes: 1) It answers the OP why women don’t learn Gemorah and 2) It helps point out the absolute insanity and anti-Torah posts by ostensibly “frum” people that get submitted here — that mostly don’t make it to the board.

here is a quote of just a small and mild part of the post with the name of the Tannah obviously changed:

“This whole story says more about the inherent stupidity and egotism of man than of the so-called lightheadedness of woman. What DO they call someone who incites another person to commit an aveira (possibly even only the appearance of an aveira)? Meisit u’meidiach??? I would not tell over that story again. It does no favor for Rabbi Ploni”

BS”D

The story is from Rashi Avoda Zara Daf Yud Ches. Other Rishonim (IIRC) disagree with that being the issue of why that Tanna had to leave, and doubt Rashi’s story (saying that if she was actually M’zane, she would not have been note as she was in the Gemorah.) (Also (personally) noting that the Tanna in question had a similar situation (and failed) brought down at the end of Mesechta Keddushin, so her Z’nus would have not proved anything anyway regarding men vs. women & Da’atan Kalos).

However, IF THE STORY IS TRUE, you have to know who you are dealing with. Tannaim are not people like us, they are people. We are like Donkeys (and not R’Pinchas Ben Yair’s donkey either, and probably not even Billam’s Donkey)(quote). Respect to the point of awe is an absolute must.

oomis

Again. It was my BAD LUCK to have stumbled upon your terrible post (now B”H removed).

I’ll have you know. A Tana has his mind and actions directly connected to HaShem. There’s no ‘machlokes’ here. That was Toras HaShem. Exactly why? Your questions? I don’t know. I don’t have answers to them right now. (Even if I would, I would not post them here – maybe they’re not fit for female consumption!) But that’s not how a believing Jew deals with his Elders/Gedolim. When a Jew (male) learns, and finds something difficult, he ‘plugs away’, ‘shvitzes’ and ‘hurravas’ until he understands. Somtimes it takes a few minutes, somtimes hours. Other times through davening and tears.

Oh, and btw, this Tana who you’re so disparaged, once found it in His Torah to have a woman spit into his face ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????. Gates to wisdom and understanding of entire creation were open to him. He understood the emotional makeup of the separate genders. Numerous times in Mishna and Gemara we find Takanos for the welfare of women. Women fared far better then than in today’s society with all ‘movements’ and ‘rights’ notwithstanding.

I have today gained another live ‘pshat’ and understanding in the meaning of ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????.