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who is right in the wisconsin strike the teachers or the governor?
The teachers are not an ishue here, the teachers union is. If you are a teacher in Wisconsin your dues will automaticly be deducted from your wage (you must join a union to be hired) and the union bosses will decide what party to support with your money without you having any say in the matter.
btw public employees earn more then their private conterparts, and their benefits are outrages.
The Governor. Where are their salaries and huge benefits going to come from?
I think the reason is, that prior to the big salary, benefits and pension, it was only idealistic people who taught. Teaching was their primary objective, money secondary. Now its reversed. Jeans and leggings are normal school cloths for teachers.
Also look at the student achievement. The increased salaries have produced worth scholastic achievement.
The dispute is not about money — the unions agreed to salary and benefit concessions early on. The Governor just wants to bust the union because it supported his opponent in last fall’s election. It is actually rather chilling. There is no reason he could not try to do so with a private business that did the same thing.
There has been a lot of bashing of public employees recently because of what is perceived to be their generous pensions. The bashing ignores three things:
(1) In public safety agencies, it is essential to have generous early retirement, lest you have 59 year old firefighters with heart disease trying to carry you out of a burning building, and 59 year old police officers with heart disease trying to subdue a criminal who is resisting arrest. The early retirement is for the good of the agency.
(2) Had the politicians been making the required pension contributions as is required of every private sector company, the pension funds would not be in such bad shape. Instead, the politicians have been diverting the money for other spending and for tax cuts. Democrats and Republicans are both guilty of this. And the politicians who are attacking the unions are committing this grand robbery even today: Both Christie and Bloomberg have skipped pension fund contributions. The robbery is truly on a Madoff level — the unfunded liability to New Jersey alone is over fifty billion dollars. Those who are bashing the public employees are blaming the victims.
(3) Benefits earned in the past must be paid. The unions should indeed agree to more affordable pension plans for the future. But even if they did, how can they be sure that the politicians won’t just steal the money as they have in the past? If I were still a public employee, I would urge the adoption of defined contribution plans with immediate vesting. In fact, when I was a public employee a number of years ago, I opted for such a plan rather than the traditional retirement plan. My retirement money was not stolen. The trouble is, that would prevent the politicians from EVER playing games with the pension funds, ever again. It is much easier to bash the employees.
(4) Compensation of government employees must be competitive in order to attract the best and brightest into government service in careers such as teaching. Government agencies are not immune from the effects of labor markets. You get what you pay for.
truth,
Actually, average scores on standardized tests have risen dramatically over the past 80 years or so. You don’t know it because the testmakers re-norm the tests every few years. Basically, people are getting smarter! The phenomenon is called the “Flynn effect” and is well documented in the psychology literature. Better education is one of the explanations that has been proposed, as has better nutrition, smaller families, and better test-taking skills. (Kids today are tested and tested and tested and tested and tested….)
The union thugs have been getting away with murder for too long. These are the same thugs that not too long ago would break the legs of workers crossing picket lines. The same unions that force government workers to join unions against their will. And if they refuse, force non-union workers to pay the union fees and dues.
Then they use their political leverage to get far more benefits than the private sector in addition to competitive or better actual wages.
Charlie – He has to break the unions because they are breaking the taxpayer. Do you even know what that means? We are in a recession, if we ever want to dream about pulling out, we need strong leadership like over there. Everyone likes our governor here in NJ and I don’t know why. He doesn’t have the guts to do what the Wisconsin gov. is doing, so therefore we have the highest property taxes in the whole country.
“In public safety agencies, it is essential to have generous early retirement, lest you have 59 year old firefighters with heart disease trying to carry you out of a burning building, and 59 year old police officers with heart disease trying to subdue a criminal who is resisting arrest. The early retirement is for the good of the agency.”
Another outrageous comment. Your wifes’ a doc -I think she should retire now. I wouldn’t want a doc having a heart attack when they are in the middle of dealing with an emergency.
Let the unhealthy public servants stop going to donut shops and start exercising. The cops should be required to Walk the beat. The FF’s should actually exercise instead of eating and watching TV during their downtime.
We are talking about teachers not policemen or firefighters, They work only 180 days a year, six hours a day including lunch, yet they earn more then police officers who work 6 days a week 12 months a year for 8-10 hour shifts sometimes at night or weekends and holidays.
now of coures we need to pay them a deacent wage if we want to have good teachers but they get way more then teachers in private schools who have much higher demands. (I’m not talking about yeshivos, they pay extreamly low with six days a week some of them 12 months a year with ZERO benefits).
cucumber,
No matter what the situations is or who is right, the Democratic legislators are obstructing democracy with their strike. (Read more here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=85397) While the Republicans also engaged in such methods of preventing quorums (including Abraham Lincoln – while he was a member of the Whig Party in the Illinois House and, most recently in 1988, in the US Senate), it wasn’t on a vote pertaining to a budget which creates chaos. It is interesting to note that when the GOP shut down the government in 1995 after multiple vetoes from President Clinton and in an attempt to balance the budget (which they did – the first time in 30 years!), they were demonized by the media and eventually lost the gains they made in the midterms. Yet, when lawmakers in Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan (soon to come – New York and New Jersey) obstruct a government from being effective – they get a free ride with bashing those seeking to balance the budget.
We must also highlight the difference in quorums that were prevented in the past (involving both parties) and those of today. It has become a phenomenon. Instead of governing, they flee (without basic explanations of flaws they see in the bill). It’s like the domino effect of the Middle East, one man burned himself and the entire region is engulfed in protests – one legislative body decided to play the sore-loser game and the rest followed. However, while those in the Middle East and Africa do it to promote democracy, these legislators do it to protect tyranny and special interests. While those civilians voice their opposition to the evil dictators that oppress them, these elitists are here to quiet down the voice of the mainstream people.
If you want to know why unions are no good for a state budget, look at Indiana. Six years ago, Governor Mitch Daniels did the same thing that Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is proposing for Wisconsin – the outcome? A balanced budget and AAA bond ratings. It isn’t a partisan fight. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is trying to do the same (as is California Governor – former tax and spend liberal – Jerry Brown). Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV) slammed President Obama for his failure to lead on the budget. Debt is not good for anyone even those that are public employees that are members in a union. Read former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney’s Opinion in the Boston Herald today about the threat of lingering debt. Think of it: less economic growth equals less tax revenue which means less benefits for public employees. Of course you might say that a government never runs out of money; well, look at California that had to issue IOU checks in return for work.
Unions do not negotiate on behalf of the workers – rather on behalf of their leaders. It is the bonuses they earn and the deals they make that drives them. They understand that an effective and capable teacher should stay longer than the one teaching for ages with low average grades. They understand that private workers earn less and do a better job; yet, they seem to be selfish on the taxpayers’ account. This is wrong and must be stopped. It was FDR, a Democrat, that warned against public employee unions. Today, we should heed to his warning and limit their rights in order to make government effective again.
We should note that Governor Walker campaigned with a platform to limit public unions, hence their strong support to his opponent and Democrats in general. He’s doing what the people elected him to do and is doing it faithfully. Liberals like Charlie Hall (and his sources at DailyKos) can try to distort things, but facts remain facts. We know that they oppose all of the bill they just decided on a culprit to demonized those trying to balance budgets and it was Walker and collective bargaining rights.
“He doesn’t have the guts to do what the Wisconsin gov. is doing, so therefore we have the highest property taxes in the whole country.”
The property taxes long preceded Christie. But he is part of the problem as he, too, is stealing money from the pensions. The high property taxes are largely due to the fact that NJ has almost 600 school districts. The entire state of MD has only 24 — along with much lower property taxes and better schools. Christie isn’t dealing with this.
“He has to break the unions because they are breaking the taxpayer. Do you even know what that means?”
Yes. It means you blame robbery victims for being robbed. Shame on you!
“We are in a recession”
No, the recession ended in June 2009. Do you even know what the definition of a recession is?
“yet they earn more then police officers”
Not true. Starting salary for NYC teachers is $45,530 with a BA, and for NYPD officers $46,200 after they leave the police academy. Pay scales increase much more rapidly for police officers. And police officers have better health and retirement benefits.
My source for these numbers are the UFT web site and the NYPD web site.
Surburban police officers earn even more than NYPD. And I do not begrudge them one cent.
These strikes highlight the fact that unions are disastrous to the country’s economic interests, and need to go immediately. We need more right to work states.
YOU are paying for 42 year old retired cops to sit home all day on their tucheses and watch tv, while they collect $50,000-$80,000 pensions in many places in NJ and NY.
Does anyone else see something wrong with this?
Unions are simply put, economically unviable. Anyone who has ever run a business understands the nitty gritty of dollars and cents- There is No Such Thing as A Free Lunch.
And this is coming from a homeless college student who understands the truth about economics and what is happening to our country.
“they get way more then teachers in private schools who have much higher demands”
Nonsense. In private schools, disruptive students can be kicked out. Not so in public schools. Public school class sizes are also usually much higher.
Private school *principals*, however, often make substantially more than public school principals even the schools are much, much smaller. I know of one principal at a Jewish Day School who was making over 400K/year, and numerous others in the 200K-300K range. The top of the salary scale for NYC public school principals is just over $150K.
“Private school *principals*, however, often make substantially more than public school principals even the schools are much, much smaller. I know of one principal at a Jewish Day School who was making over 400K/year, and numerous others in the 200K-300K range. The top of the salary scale for NYC public school principals is just over $150K.”
Over 400K a year funded by tzedakah money is absurd. However, your comparison is not totally accurate, as a principal in a Yeshiva generally fills a much broader administrative role than one in a public school. (Although in MO schools it is probably more similar, as they tend to have more administrative staff.) Public school principals (In NYC — I’m not familiar with the rest of the country) are supported from below by numerous AP’s, coaches, non classroom professionals (therapist, SBST members, etc.) and multiple office staff. Then there is a whole hierarchy above in the various networks and central offices. (Which have been changing with each reorganization, so I can’t specify the titles, but they still exist, now I believe mostly in the CFN). If you would take the total money spent on administrative positions in the NYC DOE, not even including the real higher ups in the Chancellor’s office, and divide by the number of schools, you will find that yeshiva administrators are generally not overpaid!
BTW, I happen to feel that the tremendous waste that goes on by having so much central staff is big part of the problem. I was working for the NYC DOE at the time of Bloomberg’s first reorganization, and thought he had a great idea by merging 30 something districts into 10 regions. Problem is the only place they really reduced staff was at the clerical level!!! Less secretaries making minimum wage, but not fewer administrators making high salaries! (For ex., each district used to have one District Administrator for Special Education. In the new structure, a region made up of 4 districts had 4 Regional Administrators for Special Education! I’m not picking on any specific job, just illustrating a point.) Then again, in NYC most principals and administrators are unionized as well (Why doesn’t anyone pick on the CSA?)
Additionally your starting salary for teachers is not completely accurate either, as you can no longer receive long term teacher certification from NYS without a master’s degree, so very few teachers actually make the starting salary for a BA — if you look at the same chart there is a column for what teachers with a master’s make, which is more. Then again, if they have a higher level of education they should make more. . .
Having worked for a number of years in the NYC DOE, I feel many politicians who go after public employee unions miss a critical point. I am philosophically a conservative, and don’t believe that unions in their current incarnation are good for the country or economy, but I would never consider a government job that is not unionized. Simply put, government bureaucracy is terrible from all angles. Almost no one takes personal responsibility for anything, and most people have very narrow areas of jurisdiction. Private companies generally have HR departments whose job it is to keep good workers happy. Governments generally don’t even know who the good workers are. (These are generalizations, but tend to hold true.) So the unions end up filling the role of an HR departments. When I had problems with my health insurance because a secretary somewhere filed something wrong, and for over 7 months it still wasn’t sorted out, my supervisor advised me off the record to speak to the union. I did and they had it solved in 2 days! Most teachers have had some experience where the unions helped them when they just hit a dead end trying to deal with the DOE. For many years teachers couldn’t even get phone numbers for staffers at the HR headquarters at Court St. — everything went through your school secretary, who often didn’t know information herself, and certainly couldn’t do anything about it.
As long as public employers do not have their own structure to help support employees, anything that looks like an attack on the union is going to be fought against very strongly.
Actually, average scores on standardized tests have risen dramatically over the past 80 years or so.
If you look at the regents now, they have really been downgraded. Additionally, if too many students in one class fail, or get lower marks, they automatically pass many and upgrade scores (I believe its called a learning-curve scale. Not sure the name).
So while scores may be improving, “knowledge” certainly is not. I’m only talking about the regents. I wonder if its an indicator to other things as well, and studies have been slanted in a certain direction, as they are done at times.
Several years ago, ABC had a story called “Stupid in America” (Google it for the link) that highlighted why the public school system is appallingly incompetent at educating students. The upshot is, if competition were allowed, and parents could use the tax money assigned to their student to send their school wherever they want, then bad schools would be shut down, bad teachers would be fired, and real learning could take place.
I (would like to) think most parents and teachers want students to do well, but there are no real consequences if they don’t. So many students are promoted even though if they’re just a warm body in a seat, teachers have to “teach to the test” and can’t employ innovation in the classroom or any real discipline, principals don’t back up teachers and don’t stand up to parents, and school board members are more worried about getting reelected than challenging parents to challenge their kids. Kids who are too lazy/unmotivated to do schoolwork can just mark time until they “graduate” and if they get tired of being poor, they just start squeezing out kids for the welfare money. This society of entitlement is a big problem – public assistance was never meant to be lived off of.
Oh, and teachers’ unions get paid to exist by teachers, who don’t have the option not to join. They are an industry unto themselves (like the testing industry – google “Todd Farley, “Making the Grade: My Misadventures in the Standardized Testing Industry”. They have done some good but they have too much power.
And yes, there are too many piddly little towns and school districts in NJ.
(let the flaming begin)
Dr. Hall:
I believe the “union busting” action is only so that the union will not sit on both ends of the table. The union has no problem giving back, they can get back more from the next democrat administration. The key here is limiting raises (of all types of benefits, including healthcare, hours and pensions) to the rate of inflation, and requiring a referendum to go higher.
The union will still exist, even under the bill. If the union would agree that all future raises, including benefits, would be subject to a statewide referendum, and “right to work”, then Gov. Walker would probably be willing to move forward.
CH,
I have to admit I love your spins.
With all these Charlies (Hall and Small) I am realy getting confused. 🙂
“If you look at the regents now, they have really been downgraded.”
That is because a generation ago, not everyone had to take them. As more and more less qualified students take a standardized exam, scores go down. The same has happened with college entrance exams (which have also been renormed). But in standardized tests that are given to everyone, scores have dramatically increased.
Honda and Toyota got billions in government subsidies to build factories in the US. GM didn’t. Hard compete with a subsidized competitor.
“if competition were allowed, and parents could use the tax money assigned to their student to send their school wherever they want, then bad schools would be shut down, bad teachers would be fired, and real learning could take place”
That is the theory. But it hasn’t worked out that way in practice. Many charter schools turned out to be worse than the public schools. Even Diane Ravitch no longer thinks competition is the answer.
Not that I’m against school choice — far from it. In parts of CT, ME, and VT there has been school choice for over a century; the programs are well liked and successful. But it is not a panacea.
‘If the union would agree that all future raises, including benefits, would be subject to a statewide referendum, and “right to work”, then Gov. Walker would probably be willing to move forward. ‘
In other words, if the union caved in completely. Not.
“Does anyone else see something wrong with this? “
No, there is something VERY right with this. YOU want the cop who responds to your 9-1-1 call to be able to subdue an intruder. You aren’t going to be thinking about your taxes when the person between you and a violent attacker is two or three times the attacker’s age. We need young and healthy police officers, firefighters, and corrections officers.
“Public school principals (In NYC — I’m not familiar with the rest of the country) are supported from below by numerous AP’s, coaches, non classroom professionals (therapist, SBST members, etc.) and multiple office staff.”
One reason is the size of the schools. There is a public high school near me with over 4,000 students. Another has 2,800. By comparison, the largest of the three Orthodox high schools in my neighborhood has under 400.
“If there were things like merit pay it would solve many problems. “
I lived in a place that 25 years ago adopted merit pay for teachers. The union even accepted the plan. But then the tax-cutters came into power and slashed everything. The merit pay was one of the first things to go. I’m not opposed to merit pay on principle, but the fact is that merit pay incentives have to be quite large to be meaningful and most government agencies don’t want to pay the bills.
BTW my private sector educational institution has no merit pay. Everyone gets the same annual pay increase.
“If teachers could be fired for not producing maybe we would higher literacy rates and better education “
Incompetent teachers can — and should — be fired for cause. Every union contract I’ve ever seen permits this. But it does require a hearing. And this is correct and necessary to prevent abuses.
I very strongly suspect the willingness of workers in developing countries to work for far lower wages has a lot more to do with this.
The compensation components that public employee unions negotiate for are not ones that energize workers. They are tenure after only 3 years, defined benefit pensions and salary advancements based strictly on seniority. Such compensation elements are rarely found nowadays in the private sector, because they do not drive improved productivity.
On the other hand, raises based upon merit, cash bonuses and defined contribution retirement plans do energize workers and are prevalent in the private sector.
Congratulations. The Republicans just won the fight in Wisconsin. The State Senate passed the bill ending collective bargaining without the Democrats coming back, after they were given 3 weeks to return and failed to do so.
Now they are in the process of collecting signatures to recall 8 Senate Democrats who collected a paycheck while refusing to work in the job they were elected to. If anyone else went AWOL from their job, they would be fired. These Democrats too should be fired with a recall.
“Honda and Toyota got billions in government subsidies to build factories in the US. GM didn’t. Hard compete with a subsidized competitor.”
Charlie, do you honestly believe this is the reason why Honda and Toyota are successful and GM recently filed for bankruptcy? I have a hard time believing that. Please let me know how much in subsidizes Honada and Toyota received as I can’t imagine those few dollars are material compared to the tens of billions of dollars in pension liabilities that GM had on its books.
In addition, prior to GM filing for bankruptcy union related costs added thousands of dollars per car they manufactured thus costing them more to produce the car than their selling price (and please don’t tell me they make it up in volume, lol).
That my friend is why GM filed for bankruptcy while Honda and Toyota did not.
I very strongly suspect the willingness of workers in developing countries to work for far lower wages has a lot more to do with this.
I guess we’ll never know what workers in America are willing to work for.
The minimum wage laws and unions won’t let us find out.
It was a cute scheme in the ’30s to make minimum wage, since the employers needed laborers from America. But with a global economy, it just means the jobs go out of the country.
Maybe minimum wage should only apply to jobs that can’t be exported.
“The minimum wage laws and unions won’t let us find out.”
You really think that the solution to our economic problems is to pay American workers $6/hour????
“Now they are in the process of collecting signatures to recall 8 Senate Democrats who collected a paycheck while refusing to work in the job they were elected to.”
8 Republicans are also getting recalled. Stay tuned.
tbt, have you seen the regents? they are much harder and have many more requirements than when I took regents. The grading system makes no sense to me but the actual tests seem to be harder not easier.
Ben Franklin had it right “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic”. This is exactly what is happening in our country today. A friend of mine told me this interesting analogy. It will appeal to those in the medical field. Take the human body. So intricate. So delicate. So infuriatingly complex. When something goes wrong, we try to help it. Not breathing? We can breath for you. Heart not beating? We can have it beat for you(within reason). Kidneys don’t work? We can do that too. But for all our best intentions and abilities whatever we lay our hands on seem to go wrong in some way or another. We never seem to be able to replace the “being human” aspect of humanity. For all our efforts we cannot simulate being human for a human. we can emulate the “vital signs” but its never enough. Its the same with government, or any centralized power. Government cannot replace what it is to be human. Drive, desire, accomplishment, ability, morality, ethics, etc etc etc. All aspects of human nature. God given. Any attempt at replacing them will ultimately result in failure. And its usually a catastrophic failure. No entity/program can replace the normal operation of a human being. Not in the physical sense nor the mental sense. The concept of the “union” is that by being a member, the “union” will take care of all of your needs. Sounds nice right? But in realty, it has to have a downside. Only in this case the downside is the taxpayer. So in the quest for “taking care of the vital signs of one part of humanity, we must sacrifice the other part. Like I said, its impossible to replace the humanity of being human without treading and ruining some part. I have been in many public sector unions over the years, and they all end in corruption and disillusionment. It simply is not sustainable. One other point. Historically, unions were opposite/against their industrial employers. The worker against the the employer. Where the worker fights to get whatever he/she can eek out of the employer. In the public sector case, its the unions against the taxpayer? In other words they are fighting to take more of your money. Isn’t that ridiculous? The union thinks you the taxpayer are their enemy.
Dr. Hall, I am still waiting for an answer to my question. I can’t wait up all night you know.
I
I don’t understand why my post came through twice. Can someone fix that?
Charlie – “It means you blame robbery victims for being robbed.”
Rubbish – It’s the unions who are the biggest theives.
“No, the recession ended in June 2009. Do you even know what the definition of a recession is?”
Yup, it’s definitely over. Obama has created a depression. He angered the moderate Arabs, so Saudi Arabia won’t fill in for lack of Libyan oil. Soon you won’t be able to afford to buy bread. Also, he has created so many jobs with his economic stimulus package, that there is only 10% unemployment. BTW, there was even less of a % when Bush was in office – the creator of our recession. But Obama has taken us out of the recession!
Charlie -“The property taxes long preceded Christie. But he is part of the problem as he, too, is stealing money from the pensions.”
He definitely is -he isn’t conservative enough. And now that I realize that this guy Walker isn’t going after cops and firefighters -he’s also a wimp!
BTW, Stop calling it stealing! You know it’s perfectly legal!
If it wasn’t, Obama’s AG whom is very bored right now because he isn’t bothering to defend the Marriage act because our Supreme leader has declared it unconstitutional, would be chasing after these guys to put them behind bars!
Where did you get your info & political beliefs from -the Communist Manifesto?
Charlie – “YOU want the cop who responds to your 9-1-1 call to be able to subdue an intruder. You aren’t going to be thinking about your taxes when the person between you and a violent attacker is two or three times the attacker’s age. We need young and healthy police officers, firefighters, and corrections officers.”
So when is your wife retiring? Noone wants to put their lives in the hands of a doctor who’s ch’vs middle age! Do you know how much energy it takes to practice medicine? At least as much as being a public safety employee, if not more. I know because I worked on a ambulance, which has twice as much work as any cop or fireman or jail cop and I worked/trained in medicine.
If you want cops to be healthy -tell them that Donut shops are off limits while they are on-duty. Also, like I said before, let them start Walking a beat!
I guess you believe in the saying -that if you repeat lies enough times, people will start to believe them!
Dr. Hall:
You said:
‘If the union would agree that all future raises, including benefits, would be subject to a statewide referendum, and “right to work”, then Gov. Walker would probably be willing to move forward. ‘
In other words, if the union caved in completely. Not.
I believe the most contentious point was the union having to recertify every year, which Gov. Walker would probably (I can’t speak for him) be willing to compromise on.
Which point do you have an issue with? Right to work, or the referendum on raises, etc?
Right to work (IMHO) should be the law in all states. Someone should not be forced to pay union dues just to be able to work, especially if said union will be donating to political causes (on either side). If the union is creating value for them, they will pay. It is not a government entity that has taxation rights.
A referendum on raises (only on amounts higher than inflation) just transfers the power out of the hands of the potentially biased negotiators into the hands of the people, via direct democracy. Unless you believe the people are not smart enough to make a decision (which in that case perhaps only landowners should be able to vote), why should anyone who is not biased have a problem with that?
The Republicans won 4 of the 6 recall races today, and will be keeping control of the Wisconsin Senate. Furthermore, the Republicans might pick up another 2 seats from two Democrat Senators facing a recall election next week. But either way, the Republicans are guaranteed to keep control of the Wisconsin Senate and therefore all levels of power in Wisconsin.
Obaminator – Thanks for the good news. And thanks for bringing up this topic again. I was just reading my posts above and when I posted at the time, I thought that it was more rant than anything. Now I see that it was a prediction. Look what Obama has done to our economy -because of his policies -the first time ever the S & P has lowered the US rating. If anyone thinks this won’t affect us, keep drinking the libs kool aid! In the long term this lowered rating will have a big effect on our economy.
Did you watch the Market today? The Fed Reserve with their interest tricks couldn’t keep it afloat more than a day.
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