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“And they make that clear when they put out warnings and guidelines that don’t say that you are not allowed to drink, but instead tell you how to drink.”
That doesn’t mean they allow it. It means that they understand that no one will listen anyway so you might as well do it safely.
For example, in this case, they don’t care about it on Purim.
They will care if a child ends up drunk and in the hospital.
And what about every Shabbos for that matter? Don’t many Frum families serve wine to their kids on Shabbos?
When our kids were younger, no, they did not get wine (they got grape juice). When they got older, they were allowed to have wine, but clearly not enough to intoxicate them to any degree.
The Wolf
They are accepting it and they are not arresting anyone or threatening to arrest them. That puts it in the category of a law that is not enforced. That is why I was told that it is muttar to cross on red lights in the US – even though it’s illegal, it’s not enforced. (Note: that was years ago, so I don’t know if it’s still true).
“It means that they understand that no one will listen anyway so you might as well do it safely.”
Like the law making it illegal to sing off key. Or take a shower without any clothes.
In short, the authorities don’t enforce the law to stop you from giving your 20 year old guest Kiddush wine on Shabbos.
Joseph- honestly, it hasn’t really come up in a very long time so I haven’t really thought about it. I wonder if it’s a problem but I assume not because a glass of kiddush wine is not something the authorities care about. I guess you could make the same argument for Purim as many have here.
But it seems like at the very least you admit that there’s no halachic reason to serve them wine when they are not partaking in your seudah and when they will have a seudah on your own. Considering the possibility that kids can abuse alcohol (and unfortunately we see that they do especially on Purim), then what’s the point?
There is nothing that says that I have to serve a child wine. So I don’t do it.
The Wolf
Wolf, if you have a 20 year olds guest on Shabbos, do you permit him to drink the wine for Kiddush?
“That is why I was told that it is muttar to cross on red lights in the US – even though it’s illegal, it’s not enforced. (Note: that was years ago, so I don’t know if it’s still true).” (LU)
LU!!! What? Omgosh that’s a sakana.
How is that muttar when it risks your life and other people’s lives?
Wolf, if you have a 20 year olds guest on Shabbos, do you permit him to drink the wine for Kiddush?
Yes, but not enough that they will get drunk (or even close to it).
But, besides, we’re not really talking about 20 year olds, are we? You mean even 13 year olds.
The Wolf
Wolf, aren’t you breaking the law by serving your 20 year old guests alcohol?
Wolf, aren’t you breaking the law by serving your 20 year old guests alcohol?
Perhaps. But I’m not actually endangering them as I would be if I allowed a 13 year old to get drunk. If you can’t make that distinction, then I feel sorry for you.
The Wolf
Someone does not need to be visibly drunk to be impaired and have brain damage from consuming alcohol… especially a teenage or young adult whose brain is still developing until mid-20’s.
If you cannot understand that, then I feel sorry for those who look up to you as you serve them alcohol.
If it’s really a chiyuv for 13 years old to drink, it is legal for the parent or guardian to give him alcohol. It’s illegal for anyone else to.
There is also no chiyuv for a 13 year old to drink at all outside of his seudah while he’s going around collecting. Also considering the sakanah and the plethora of shitos who say otherwise (like, as I mentioned, 2 of the most prominent sources to contemporary Ashkenazic halacha, the Rama and Mishnah Berurahs’s), there is probably no chiyuv for them to get drunk at all… Just to drink a little bit more than they usually drink.
LB: You’re opposed to anyone drinking any alcohol until one reaches their mid-20s?
I def don’t support it.
It’s not like I didn’t drink when I was younger but now that I know the effects that even occasional use has on a developing brain, and have learned that the brain is still maturing past 21, I do not advocate anyone drinking before mid-20’s.
I know it’s extreme given Jewish culture, and modernity, but call me prude.
We need our brains to live and serve Hashem and I believe it’s one’s responsibility to take care of one’s mental health, which serves as one’s headquarters for everything else one does.
LB -almost everyone crosses on red lights in the US if there are no cars. Most people even cross in the middle of the street where there aren’t even traffic lights.
Personally, I am makpid for several reasons. 1. Safety 2. chinuch reasons if any kids see me 3. Kiddush Hashem
But I think most people are not makpid if there are no cars coming. Why does that shock you?
Someone does not need to be visibly drunk to be impaired and have brain damage from consuming alcohol… especially a teenage or young adult whose brain is still developing until mid-20’s.
If you cannot understand that, then I feel sorry for those who look up to you as you serve them alcohol.
My kids are in the 20-25 age range. We give them (if they want) some of the wine from kiddush on Shabbos and Yom Tov.
My kids are now at an age where I do not tell them what to do or not do. However, they have learned the value of sobriety from myself and my wife, neither of whom has *ever* been drunk. My kids do not (and did not) go around drinking on Purim and, to the best of my knowledge, none of them has ever been drunk either.
If, despite that, you think that a quarter cup or less of low alcohol wine is going to damage them, then I invite you to call the cops on me for abuse.
The Wolf
LU rega rega…. are you talking about driving or walking?
walking. lol… you thought I meant driving??
I thought maybe you thought I meant “crossing on a red light when cars are coming”, which reminds me of a story, but I’m in a rush now. Maybe later.
lightbrite,
Someone does not need to be visibly drunk to be impaired and have brain damage from consuming alcohol… especially a teenage or young adult whose brain is still developing until mid-20’s.
I don’t think anyone in the medical field (at least that I’ve heard) worries about a bit of kiddush wine at a Shabbos meal. Regular consumption or binge drinking are the bigger concerns.
If you cannot understand that, then I feel sorry for those who look up to you as you serve them alcohol.
To whom is this comment addressed?
Avram in MD: Wolf who had just said this to Joseph…
“If you can’t make that distinction, then I feel sorry for you.”
lightbrite,
Avram in MD: Wolf who had just said this to Joseph…
“If you can’t make that distinction, then I feel sorry for you.”
Do you honestly intend to castigate every Jewish parent who allows their adult children to have a sip of kiddush wine as unfit to be a proper role model? And you see no moral difference between that and encouraging binge drinking among young teenagers?
No need to worry and argue.
I have revived all the relevant threads, or cheat sheets if you prefer, wherein the posters of old have already answered all the questions.
In lightbrite’s world, a father who makes a positive example about sobriety and responsible drinking by never getting drunk giving his adult kids 2 oz. of 5% alcohol is a criminal while someone who sets a terrible example by getting drunk in front of their kids is fine as long as he doesn’t actually give them any himself (because, as we all know, they won’t touch it if he tells them not to…)
The Wolf
Do you honestly intend to castigate every Jewish parent who allows their adult children to have a sip of kiddush wine as unfit to be a proper role model? And you see no moral difference between that and encouraging binge drinking among young teenagers?
It would seem, based on her (?) lack of response, that you have your answer.
The Wolf
golfer: Agreed. 🙂
Maybe she wants to think carefully about her response before she posts, so she can give a well-thought-out-answer. And maybe she hasn’t had a chance to do so yet.
Thanks LU… I was out during that time, and didn’t open this thread until I got home to my computer.
I was out during that time, and didn’t open this thread until I got home to my computer.
Fair enough. Then I eagerly await your response, lightbrite.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings,
In lightbrite’s world, a father who makes a positive example about sobriety and responsible drinking by never getting drunk giving his adult kids 2 oz. of 5% alcohol is a criminal
I don’t think she actually implied criminal, although what she did say was quite harsh and confusing, and should get a follow-up. Lightbrite seems opposed to alcohol consumption at older than 21, perhaps up to 25, so I don’t think she considers this a legal issue.
while someone who sets a terrible example by getting drunk in front of their kids is fine as long as he doesn’t actually give them any himself (because, as we all know, they won’t touch it if he tells them not to…)
Not sure she stated or implied that either.
What shocked me was the harsh statement she made regarding something that is commonly done in Jewish households and is both halachically and legally permissible (and not even medically harmful), and an implied moral equivalence with the idea of encouraging binge drinking among children who are not your own.
Regarding drinking on Purim, you may want to read what Rabbi Eliezer Ginsburg wrote in this weeks edition of the Flatbush Jewish Journal printed on page 46. He quotes the Rambam that one is supposed to drink wine only by the seudas Purim.
I don’t think she actually implied criminal, although what she did say was quite harsh and confusing,
Not sure she stated or implied that either.
Fair enough. I probably overstated the case somewhat.
That being said, I *still* await her explanation.
The Wolf
“walking. lol… you thought I meant driving??” (LU)
LU: Yes!!! Omgosh sorry so sorry. Now it makes sense 🙂
And that’s good news too. Wow. Okay. Totally different story when you’re talking about walking. <3
Lightbrite,
Your silence to the question is deafening.
The Wolf
Wolf – I think she responded on another thread. It sounds like she may have been misunderstood.
Honestly, I didn’t read these particular posts so carefully because I wasn’t so interested in the topic, but from I know of Lightbrite, she is one of the most sensitive people in the CR, so I highly doubt she meant what you think she meant.
My guess is that either she didn’t express herself carefully and/or she was misunderstood. And I believe she said as much in her post on another thread.
That is just my take on the situation. I don’t mean to devalidate your feelings if you were hurt by something she said. And if you feel an apology and/or an explanation is owed to you, you certainly have a right (and perhaps an obligation) to say so.
This was distributed to the community by the police department:
PURIM – SAFETY TIPS
Purim can be a very fun and exciting holiday. However, if safety precautions are not followed it can also be very dangerous. Please be aware that the Police Department will be around to keep everyone safe.
Please celebrate responsibly! Drinking and driving do not mix, please make sure that there are designated drivers. Please also be aware that providing alcohol to someone under the age of 21 is illegal and it can be dangerous!
Be alert to the fact that, in their excitement, children may not be careful when crossing the street. Always be on the lookout for youngsters jutting out from in between cars.
Please be considerate to your neighbors during this time of celebration, especially in the late evening hours. By being aware of circumstances and taking a few precautions, we can have a safe and happy Purim.
Thank you 29 for posting!
Also, I think that there is a “shita” that it better for boys to know that there is one day a year that they can get drunk, since this way they are less likely to be tempted to get drunk the rest of the year.
I don’t know if this “shita” is right or not, and others are entitled to feel differently. I don’t think there is a way to really prove definitively one way or another.
But, it certainly makes sense, and even if one disagrees, he should respect those that have this opinion and acknowledge that there is logic to it whether or not he agrees. Especially since it can’t be proven either way.
One of the main themes of Purim is achdus, so let’s start by respecting others and their opinions even when we disagree. Thank you for listening!
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