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Most western cultures respect a minority seeking to be left alone, and consider it bigotry for the majority to force their norms on the minority. The secular Jews (and many of the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionists as well) have let their prejudices get the best of them. Most of the world will see the persecution of the Hareidim (denying social security benefits, denying passports, seizing their money) as religious persecution.
Ah, back to that? The dati are just as bigoted as the chareidim, what with your mechitzos during davening, not counting women for a minyan, not counting women as witnesses or dayanim, grooms buying brides for silver, etc.
To the outside observer, we’re all just the same on that score. At least we believe in what we’re doing, so we have a good justification for it. You guys claim it is really bigotry but the Torah makes you do it (for now)–you’re the much realer bigots.
“Correct, which is why I said I said “(although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way)”. However, an outside observer who sees this would conclude that there is discrimination and bigotry coming from the Charaidim.”
so flip you and your ilk around and lecture the other side, instead of lecturing the chareidim.
I hadn’t the slightest idea what the point was. And now even less so.
Re: above discussion of bigotry
The Hareidim desire to be left alone. They don’t want to march into the hiloni schools and take the students, or change their curriculum. They are insisting that those who go “off the derekh” be returned. They aren’t objection to the hilonim taking court cases to the hiloni courts. They just want to be left alone in their own communities.
It is the hilonim (and the Dati Leumi) who want to take away the Hareidi children, and force the schools to change the subjects they teach, and make it a crime to use non-government courts, and who have a law stating that hareidim who don’t serve in the army aren’t allowed to hold jobs outside the hareidi community. This is what you would expect from prejudiced bigots.
GAW -“Had the Charaidim left everyone else alone, we would not be having this discussion. It is easy to say “you leave us alone, but we will still control you”. Chazal called that Midas Sedom.”
Usually your posts make sense, but in this case you’re totally off. You buy the propaganda from the Chilonim. They (Frumme) really did want to be left alone. Ben-Gurion wanted them to join the Medina at which they agreed. This means first-class citizens and Not have to go to the army and following Orthodox guidelines for marriage, conversion, divorce, etc.
The Charedim put up signs in Mae Sharim about Tzinus -this was in their neighborhood. They never were interested in forcing the Chilonim into the Torah way of life. There were never any signs in Tel- Aviv. The Chilonim & the MO saw how successful the Charedim are -married life, good kids as opposed to their lifestyle -divorce, crime, abortions, AIDS & other diseases that permeate their society. This jealousy led them to find fault with the Charedim. Eg. They never honored the dress-code in Mae Sharim saying -you can’t tell Me what to do in My country.
They are scared that soon there will be nothing left of them. Pharoh did the same thing in Egypt. Once he saw how much better the Jewish people were than Egyptians that is when the jealously came and then “Hava Neschama Lo”.
You have fallen prey to the Anti-Charedim propaganda that you experience on a daily basis -in the news and even here in YWN’s CR!
I protest the statements calling halacha “bigoted” towards women. The halacha is not bigoted towards women.
Discrimination doesn’t equal bigotry.
GAW -“Health: With all due respect, I believe you are incorrect.”
How am I incorrect? You’re just saying that the situation changed. It might have changed due to natural occurences -so the Charedim didn’t do it to start up or force Freye to be Frum. The natural occurrence of any pop that doesn’t do birth control or abortion is to populate. When the Chilonim realized that soon the Charedim are going to have a sizable pop – what did they do? They should have worked to find common ground. But instead – while they still have a majority – they are looking for ways to illegitimize the Charedim. The whole draft business (which the army says we don’t want or need Charedim) and the marriage and Shabbos business is all to stop the Charedim and lower their standings and class.
Many countries have tried this before to Jews, eg. Germany, Russia, etc. It’s suprising that so soon after the Holocaust that Jews (Chilonim) are now doing this to other Jews (Charedim).
Discrimination doesn’t equal bigotry.
Absolutely right!
The Chazon Ish was fiercest anti-zionist.
There are two options for that sentence:
1) The Chazon Ish was a fierce anti-zionist
2) The Chazon Ish was the fiercest anti-zionist
take our pick.
If by “win”, you mean that there won’t actually be soldiers dragging people out of the Beis Medrash, then yes, this is a win.
As secular as Israel gets orthodox Jews will always have a step up there over other countries because while they are secular they are still biologically Jewish and we share a common history and heritage. That will always count for something.
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