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There is an article today in the news section regarding how some shuls are planning to accommodate daveners on Rosh Hashanah within the parameters of state and local Covid19 gathering rules. Some will substantially restrict inside attendance, stagger the start times of minyanim, require masks, add new outside minyanim where they have the room and weather allows etc. Simple question. Based on what you know NOW regarding the risks of Covid infection, would you be willing to daven for extended hours inside a shul that opens its doors next month, even if it tries its best to maintain social distancing or are their reasons (personal exposure because of weakened immune system, elderly living at home, etc.) why you will daven at home this year. I suspect most CR readers will be glad to get back into shul even knowing there are some residual risks but was curious as to the current sentiments.
People are still not going to shul?
Of course I’ll be in shul and the shul will be packed to capacity it’s the most special time. You think this is normal not to go to shul? Tefilla is the most important thing. If you do the right thing everything will be fine.
90% of the frum olam in the tri state area is davening with minyan, just a few nervous people don’t, my guess is that almost all frum shul save some YI and Avi Weiss type shul will be operating normally on Rosh Hashanah.
I would be davening with a minyan and with a new appreciation of me begayfah.Edited
I still have a minyan outside my house 3 times a day, 7 days a week. We started it here in Monsey on Erev Pesach and its been going and going since then. Now the same people are hoping that we will still be open for the entire YomTov period, to which I answered, if there is still a need, yes we will. I have people sitting at least 50 feet away from the nearest mispalell and they are wearing a mask. These are people who still have not been infected, or they have elderly parents living with them, or their spouse is immuno-compomised, and therefore have been told that they can’t enter a proper Shul. For whatever reason they have, I am prepared to stay open until I am no longer needed.
No. I have lung lesions from prior illnesses, atherosclerosis, and I am over age 65, all of which are serious risk factors if I get infected with coronavirus. The first mitzvah is to protect life. Any questions?
@forshayer, you maybe have your outdoor minyan with people 100 feet apart, I can tell you that Sheiners is PACKED to the gills, with a new minyan every ten minutes, Rottenberg is full, Rudinsky is full, Twersky is full. so we must be talking about a different Forshay
@commonsaychel, as a matter of fact, I know exactly how many people are in Scheiners because it’s in my backyard. I have the path in my driveway and I am the Gabbai there. But besides for that little piece of trivia, I know nothing. And by the way, I have nothing against all the people who go to these Shuls, but please don’t judge my Mispallelim as they are just trying to stay alive. We daven at 8:30am during the week and 12 minutes before Plag is Mincha and Maariv. You’re more than welcome to check us out.
NO, I and my family will not be in shul.
Since March 12 when all the grandchildren, great-nephews, great nieces came to spend the rest of school year and summer, Minyan has been held at the CTL Compound. B”H we have Sifrei Torah and all necessary items for daily, Shabbos and Yuntif minyanim.Although CT is is good shape, we have elected to keep our approx 50 family members out of our shul so other members may attend and not exceed the Covid mandated capacity limits.
We know there is Covid spread in camps and bungalow colonies.
We know that many going to hot spot states have no intention of quarantining when they get back.
We are hearing of various weddings in frum communities where many of the attendees came away sick with Covid.
So the seeds are there for a huge outbreak. And schools open in a few weeks.
Given these facts, i don’t see how a 6-7 hour tefilla indoors can be viewed as safe in any way, shape, or form. We say mi yichye mi yamus, but why force the issue?
I know I am a daas yochid on this.I don’t think you are a daas yochid at all. I also don’t think those who already recovered should be deprived of a regular minyan. I think people need to take serious responsibility for their situations and not assume everyone without a mask is a careless rodef.
Unfortunately, no. As i havent been to a shul in months and i dont attend that shul anymore for reasons of its being “conservative” and myself working on becoming a baal teshuvah and later converting under Orthodox(Yeah, KOSHER JUDIASM) i have no shul now and the virus is not even a concern for my age and besides, (controversial torah fact: (there is no punishment without sin.)) Yes during a plague dont even step foot outside without ones face covered. Alas i may have to blow my own shofar and perhaps in the zechus of my teshuvah HaShem will provide me with the ideal scenario in which to properly fulfill my obligations and perform the desired service to Him.
Maybe ill get a special visa and go to ukraine for uman uman rosh hashana. B’Ezrat HaShem.I don’t intend to go to shul on the 1st day Rosh Hashanah as it is Shabbos and there will not be Shofar.
As for the 2nd day I am debating whether I could go to shul, masked, just for the 1st 30 shofar blasts, and then come home or stay for the whole of Mussaf and all the shofar blowing.
I will have to ask a Rov as I am vulnerable and still Shielding.
Also does anyone know whether Hataros Nedarim has to be done with 3 people together or can it be done over the phone or by Beth din document?
@Forshayer, CTL, Greatfulblac, Yosefserbow
I respect your right to daven beyididus or with social distance outdoors, I am asking that you show the same respect for those who wish to daven with a minyan indoors without masks.
PS Gratefulblac I remember reading somewhere that Kol Nidray can substitute for htaras nidorim.Davening indoors without a mask doesn’t warrant “respect”. Refraining from judgement or criticism perhaps, as i stated above, but honestly it depends on why they are doing it. If they just don’t care or don’t believe they can infect people there is nothing to respect. If they comprised a minyan of people who have antibodies or were already sick and have all agreed to stay home if they feel sick and be honest if they become exposed, then that is something else.
@Syag, I didn’t write respect, I wrote ” I respect the right” and likewise I expect the same in return.
What ones motivations are is frankly none of anyone’s business, I don’t go up in shul and ask some random stranger who he is saying kaddish for, I don’t ask some random stranger who made a meshabrach lcholeh who that person is and what is that person suffering from, and I don’t ask some random stranger who benched gomel why that person benched.
Everyone should do what works for them and its none of anyone business.You said show respect. And the rest of your post is somewhat infantile. We are talking about spreading a disease. Don’t distract by pretending making a mishaberach is the same as walking into a crowd while carrying a virus. Please.
If you want to mind your own business and ask others to as well, then stick to a situation that isn’t airborbe. Are you also the guy who drills the hole under his seat on the boat and tells everyone to mind their own business then too?
Scheiners is very far from full. As was established there from day 1, masks and distancing are not in sight. They believe that anyone who feels they are compromised should stay home.
Fact is they offer minyanim at all hours from shachris past chatzos and micha hours past shkia. They accommodate every nusach and minhag available.
Accommodating their regular people who are a bit nervous about their health is not part of their program.
Pop up minyanim are available in most areas and are growing not becoming smaller.
Just an FYI, my neighborhood has 20 positive cases albeit not as virulent. Problem is all you need is the wrong person to get it and you have a problem.
Lakewood is not immune as recent events have shown.
Denigrating people who are still scared is wrong. We should do everything to help them not hurt them.
Forshayer knows what he is doing and should be blessed“Its amazing that some yidden have devolved to the same political swamp where going w/o a mask is their expression of contempt for those whose are more vulnerable and risk averse than themselves.”
They haven’t. And your need to give an impression of such a reality is shameful
If i wanted to, i could plant a sick rumor that everyone hiding in their houses is just looking for excuses not to go to shul. But i don’t. Because i respect people to be doing what halachavrequires of them based on their PERSONAL situation. You will have to stop deciding that anyone who isn’t wearing a mask is a low life. I did my time and only wear a mask to stop people like you from freaking out. I was advised by my medical professionals that i won’t get sick again or spread it. How long do you need me to do this as a favor to you? Why can’t you trust me if you see me without a madk? And what about all the people in my shoes who are stuck with no life because they can’t tolerate the mask but don’t want to be vilified by the people who think like you do?
Dear Syag,
One Yid personally told me not to wear a mask “because old people die anyway”.
Dear Nachson,
Some fearless people are being prudent.
Some fearful people are being reckless.Dear Insert,
This virus is a communal concern. A shul is a communal concept. They go together. This pandemic has laid bare how much our sense of community has been weakened.Dear Proud,
“You think this is normal not to go to shul? Tefilla is the most important thing. If you do the right thing everything will be fine.”
1) Shul has nothing to do with Tefilla. And vice versa.
2) When is tefilla most important?
3) What is the right thing?
(Maybe we should follow the yearnings of the navi. Let’s head for the desert and wail the corpse-like state that is our nation.)
Dear Common,
Although many major shuls are near or at regular levels, many minyanim that cater to the elderly are still closed. As well as smaller shuls that never had a big crowd. Also, people are more comfortable with minyaim inside and outside the work place. Impromptu and scheduled vacation minyanim are at an all time high.
It is a good question how this plays out for Rosh Hashanah. Some places put a lot of work into squeezing out as many seats as possible. They may feel it is wiser to turn people away. [Or use it as an excuse to work less.] Also, yeshivos do not want to risk being shut down for the beginning of winter zman. Additionally, there will be much less of a pilgrimage to Umann this year. And less people are not heading to Eretz Yisrael until after succos.
There are many reasons. And many who have valid reasons. Your lack of understanding doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Sorry.
Whatever reason one condones for not wearing a mask, would they uphold the same reasoning for not wearing a yarmulke?
I respect those who feel it’s safe to daven indoors for yomim noraim. And I hope that they made the correct call.
@syag, I like your boat analogy. I happen to own a boat, I don’t force anyone onto my boat,
Some boat owner make all passengers wear life jackets, some just children and some not at all.
If you don’t like the boat rules don’t go on that boat.
Each shul can and does decide what works for them, you don’t like it do go there.Again, silliness. Is it intentional? You keep pretending that this virus is self contained. If you want to put your guests lives at risk, by all means let them know the risks. But what part of you thinks a sinking boat, mishabetach and birkas hagomel are contagious? If you decide to put traif meat in your dishes that’s your choice. If you cook traif meat in your caterers dishes you are involving others against their will.
If a shul decides to have a grouo of people with both immunity and no regard for others in a maskless minyan, let them. But please make sure they sleep and eat thete so the rest of the community does not have to suffer from their negligence. Why is it so hard to understand the difference?
GH – are you really predicting death ch”v on everyone who decides to daven indoors? Have you no boundaries? Did you ever consider that this pandemic may have left you with ptsd that requires professional help? The death rate is not 50:75. Please get yourself a reality check.
I live in Lakewood and kept to social distancing rules until a week or 2 after shavous. After that i stopped being very careful because the case count in lakewood was steadily at a low number for a few weeks and has continued like that all the until now.
As of now i and most of Lakewood are davening in shuls like normal without masks. If Corona starts spreading again then i will change my position.To all those people who refuse to wear masks in Shuls even if they know or feel that they don’t need to, and then come here and yell at all the people who are telling them that they are C’V killing people, what do they tell the checkers at Costco on the way in? You’re an idiot? You’re overreacting? Come on, the virus has been gone since after Shavuos! Why is it that it’s easier to wear a mask when you’re amongst Goyim, checking in for your flight to Orlando on United, but not in Shul when you might make another Jew happy?
We know many people died from covid a few short months ago. We know people are still dying from it in Israel. We know flu is worse in the winter than the summer. I understand that people want to ignore the realities.
I think this year we have a legitimate taana to the Soton on Rosh Hashana. Usually the soton says, you wouldn’t ignore sakana so why did you ignore the possibility of Gehinnom? This year we can say, Of course we ignored the yetzer tov. We ignored actual sakana as well.
honestly though, we know fish and meat used to be sakana. we are still makpid even though it no longer seems like sakana. We should treat Covid like fish and meat- sakana even if it doesn’t appear that way right now.
Who is davening b’yedidus or outdoors? and not showing respect for those davening in a shul??????
I have an extended family of about 50 people davening in an appropriate indoor setting with an Aron Kodesh and Sifrei Torah (having belonged to my zaidey’s bungalow colony in the 1940s, 50s and 60s) every day since March 12th.
I show respect for those wanting to daven inside our local shul, by keeping my 50+- home so they can be in compliance with the occupancy limits ordered by our governor. I could say, we own those 50 seats and let those who don’t own seats stay home.As for respecting those who wish to daven indoors without masks>>>>if they are here in Connecticut, this would break the law; and I (an attorney) do not condone or respect law breaking.
I believe you attacked then wrong person.
BTW, we have had Yuntif minyanim at the CTL compound for decades. It is not something new. This allowed our late parents and grandparents to enjoy the company opf the whole family when the elders were no longer able to walk to shul. It is 4+ years since Mrs. CTL was able to make that walk. At least she will have a full minyan present here, surrounded by her family. I”H the weather will be beautiful and members of the shul will come by for an outdoor kiddush on their way home each day. We shall observe both indoor and outdoor limits set by out state.Forshayer- i don’t disagree with you. I also think the yelling (that i didn’t know existed til these threads) needs to stop. But if you are saying people are wearing masks to make other jews happy, then is it not really a health concern? And if it’s just to make you happy, how far does that have to go? Why can’t there be maskless minyanim for people who have recovered, mask minyanim, and backyard ones?
Dear Doing,
Lakewood has had several worrying cases in the last week or so.If someone comes into your shul without a yarmulke and you don’t mind, the same can go for not wearing a mask.
“would you be willing to daven for extended hours inside a shul that opens its doors next month”
No. I bought a shofar two days ago and am learning how to blow.
” save some YI and Avi Weiss type shul ”
Rabbi Weiss retired in 2015, but the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is still not sure what it can do. Before the pandemic it was standing room only in the main minyan every Shabbat and the fire code set a limit of 496 on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. A downstairs minyan in the social hall added another 300 or so, and shul members also run services at another location for about 180 more. However, with social distance, only about 25 people can be accommodated in the outdoor terrace, about 50 in the main shul, and about 30 in the social hall. And there aren’t a lot of other options.
” I am asking tat you show the same respect for those who wish to daven with a minyan indoors without masks.”
I give no respect to such rashaim, People who go indoors without masks who are a major reason why we have death panels in Texas.
What sheer garbage. People in shul without masks are not killing anyone in texas. go blame the morons protesting for your sick party spitting germs in peoples faces, or people who wear masks but don’t wash their hands, or people who let their kids touxh things at walmart, target and jewel, or people who ride the subway after other people who ride the subway.
You have no idea if every one in that minyan is recovered. Badmouthing jews seems to be some peoples go to these days. From people who are educated enough to know better.Everyone should be tested for Covid -19 both to see if they have it and to see if they have the antibodies. Here in NY these tests are free even if you don’t have insurance. There are 2 types of tests one a nasal swab tests if you have Covid now, while the blood test tells if you have the antibodies. Everyone should get both tests. If you have the antibodies you already had it and have recovered and don’t even know it. The chances of you catching it a second time are greatly reduced and you can go to shul, but there is still a chance that you can catch it again.
Everyone should wear a mask covering their mouth and nose in public to reduce transmitting this disease. Masks are uncomfortable and fog up your glasses which is why in certain areas hardly anyone is wearing them now. Also because the mask doesn’t protect the wearer they feel why wear it. I ride the subway and see people not wearing masks or wearing them but not over their nose and or mouth .even though wearing a mask is required in order to ride the subway.
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