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Firstly I love all Jews of all dominons.
A lot of the best Sepahrdic learners, change their minhagim,their family names, their pronounciations and a lot more (i know a case of a Charedi that wanted to bleach his skin white to look ashkenaz!!)!!! since the leaders of each sector set the trend for the next generation – a lot of the top sephardic rabbanim now are so ashamed about being sephardic as if they will catch a disease, there may be now No more sephardim in the next generation, in fact a lot of the modern orthodox and secular sephardim are proud about there places where they came from which makes it frustarating for a lot of the less religious sephardim!! Since that a lot of the top notch learners sephardim are so ashamed of their roots that they will change there whole family identity!! It is also not fair on the BT’s (which i am one) a lot of them that have sephardic roots (i.e. their parents are sephardi) get an easy heter to do everything ashkenaz, which is not fair on the few people that want to respect their minhagim and traditions meaning their is a much smaller community of Sephardic BT’s that are English speakers – which makes integration for me much more difficult!!. I was in a famous BT yeshiva in Israel and the main sephardic Rabbi there was trying to be the most Ashkenazic man in the world – which isnt fair on those sephardic students in the same institution who are relying on him for sephardic education!!!
what can be done to save the destruction of the sephardic culture and heritage amongst the sephardic chareidim and respect for Halacha????
Restore polygamy, since stopping it was an Ashkenazic custom, not a Sephardic one.
yes h’h.
That question is highly disturbing
Can the ASHKENAZI gedolim in America get involved in a Sefardi problem?
They could but the only people who would listen to them are ashkenazim so it wouldn’t solve anything.
lovetorah12, the first step is to have two wives.
“many of these Sephardic Chariedim are so ashamed of where they are from!!! THIS IS NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAN THE GEDOLIM OF AMERICA GET INVOLVED AND SAVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
I dont think writing in all caps with a dozens of exclamation marks is going to get the gedolim to read what you have to say more so than if you wrote in lowercase with no exclamation marks.
I am also Sephardic, I’m Orthodox, not a BT and still keep all of our customs so there are some left, but I understand the frustration in trying to find an Orthodox Sephardic rabbi that follows the Sephardic minhagim. There are rabbis who are working to preserve our minhagim it just isn’t as big of a community as the Ashkenazi Charadi one so they aren’t as noticeable. Preserve the minhagim in your own home, and there is nothing wrong with a Sephardic Jew wanting to join the much larger Ashkenazic community, they have a lot going for them and in the end it’s his choice. Preserving the Jewish people and the Torah is much more important than the customs of a community. Yes we have a strong heritage and many gadolim but if the Jewish people become unified into one community it’s not a bad thing.
That being said I’m Sephardic and proud of my heritage and the great Sephardic rabbis that I come from and I don’t plan to change my minhagim 🙂
There will be, because there are many in this generation who want to preserve it. Just look at you? your home definitely keep the traditions alive and you weren’t even raised with it!
” I understand the frustration in trying to find an Orthodox Sephardic rabbi that follows the Sephardic minhagim. “
I am surprised. I am Ashkenazic but I personally know at least four Orthodox Sefardic Rabbis who follow Sefardic minhagim.
The Mechaber permits polygamous marriages and Sephardim have been practicing it in line with the Shulchan Aruch until fairly very recently. So anyone purportedly maintaining Sephardic traditions and minhagim would be supportive and accepting of such marriages as Chacham Ovadia Yosef stated should be the case.
Joseph: That is incorrect. Most Sefardic communities stopped practicing polygamy centuries ago. Yemenites were the biggest major exception, and it is probably unfair to call them “Sefardim” in the first place.
Sam: When did they stop? It must be after the S”A was published. Why did they stop and what is your (written) source that they stopped (including when)? And other than the Teimanim are you sure it was universal among all Sefardim?
As I understand, it only (almost) completely stopped once they moved to countries where the secular authorities stopped them.
Joseph, the Mechaber only permits polygamy where the current wife agrees (it is a clause in the ketuba). In fact, true Sepharadim (= descendants of gerush Sepharad) have not practiced it. Some of the Eidot HaMizrach, in particular Yemenites, did, but not all. The Ben Ish Hai, for example, only had one wife, as did his rebbe Rav Abdullah Somekh.
Why don’t you try to find a purely Sephardic charedi yeshivah/kollel? If you go to mainly Ashkenazi places you’ll find the Sephardim who are going in an Ashkenazi direction.
Maybe a good place to start, would be to have ashkenazim more accepting of sephardim. I think a lot of the insecurities of sefardim, stem from comments and being treated like a second-class citizen by some ashkenazim. I can tell you countless stories in which I have been ridiculed by ashkenazim for no other reason than being married a sephardi.
Sam: When did they stop? It must be after the S”A was published. Why did they stop and what is your (written) source that they stopped (including when)? And other than the Teimanim are you sure it was universal among all Sefardim?
They stopped when the countries they were living in were colonized by Europeans and “Christian values” were imposed.
I guess were all speechless at how wrong you are.
Not sure where you live, but in Flatbush I know there are vibrant sephardic chareidi kehilot and yeshibot. I used to tsulee frequently in the sephardic/edot hamizrach kenesiyot when I was in yeshiva there and I enjoyed the havara and nusach. I miss it now that i live in an entirely ahkenaz community.
Define “charedim”.
R’ Charlie, is your shul considered charedi?
H-isreading, yes, exactly what I felt too.
Dumbfounded completely by lovet12’s comments.
Either lives on a different planet, or a continuation of the troll infestation here of late.
Golfer:or a continuation of the troll infestation here of late.
Haha yes that too!
im sephardic. and i belive the pace we are going at now in a couple generations we will be very big. next generation is already getting better and bigger.we have many talmidey chachamim many bnei torah as well.sadly we leave our mesorah to a certain degree because ashkenazim have alot more build and sephardim go to there yeshivot and they become like asheknazim.its a sad thing because sephardim have a beautifal rich mesorah full of the greatest gedolim in history but bh they r growing slowly alot of there parents came from countrys where it wasent easy to be religious.
Hey first of all LoveTorah take a chill pill! Take a big deep breath, drink a cup of cold fresh water and calm down!
Second of all, all you guys going on about polygamy… REALLY! what on earth has it got to do with sefardi pride and anyway who in the world needs two wives?!?!? Is one not enough(!) I guess those that wrote it aren’t married:-)
Now joking aside, things are really not as dark as you make them.
Now more than ever there is a serious big Kahal of super charedi proud sefardim all over the world! It’s sad to hear that you are in a community that puts us down. but not to worry, its the ‘worrying’ truth that I think is making the sefardi bashing a bit stronger. It’s not new this anti sefardi business. It began with the anti religious zionists before the state, and unfortunately the religious also got caught up in it. The truth is, that already quite a few years ago there were officially more sefardi yeshiva bachurim than ashkenazi ones on Israel. (This was published by the ashke vaad hayeshivos in Israel with all the exact figures) but you wont hear this in public, you only get the picture of the downtrodden dirty sefardi guys…
Don’t let it get at you. Have a good look around, there are lots and lots of serious and genuine proud sefardim in Israel and around the world! Just wait another few years and there will be a big turnaround. People that really know, know the truth that lots of the real stuff is now by the sefardim!
About Maran Harav Ovadia Ztz”l, anyone that isn’t politically motivated, anyone that isn’t looking for sinat chinam (I hope i’m not bashing any of your rebeim) knows to appreciate the greatest talmid chacham that lived in the past generations. Just look at the pictures of all the real gedolim from all over the spectrum tha came to the levaya and shiva, and even during his life. Just open his sefarim and read through just a bit. Read the haskamot that he got when he was still very young from the previous generation’s (Ashkenazi) gedolim!! All these fact talk for themselves.
And last but not least, as I always say, Mashiach is on our doorstep. Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov, Moshe rabenu, Eliyahu hanavi, Rabi Shimon bar Yochai etc etc ask anybody, are they gonna be wearing fracks with hamburgs or shtreimelach?? of course they’re gonna have the real old ‘sefardi’ garb. And what are they going to be called?? If you say Moishe or Avrohom.. lets be real – they wont even turn around:-))
So just calm down. Sweet dreams. Don’t let our true pride be downtrodden by a few loudmouths or by a few self haters.. Go out and see the real world!
Threads about Sphardim becoming too Ashkenaz happen a lot in the CR. I personally believe that this narrative about Sphardim being ashamed and wishing they were Ashkenazi is completely made up. From what I’ve seen, it’s common for Ashkenazim to go to Sphardi communities because they think it’s cool and different (you can see evidence of that occurrence in this very thread). The problem is that that can wear down the Sphardi integrity of the shul. For example, the oldest community in America is a Spanish shul on the upper west side. They still follow Spanish/Portuguese custom to the letter when in shul. However, of the hundreds of congregants they have, you can count the actual Sephardim on one hand, of the three Rabbis, only one is Sephardi.
I’ve heard this isn’t uncommon. It’s not that the Sphardim are leaving their communities, it’s that the Ashkenazim are flooding them.
I have no idea about what it’s like in Israel. I was told there are more religious Sphardim over there than there are religious Ashkenazim. Is that true?
knacker: “ask anybody, are they gonna be wearing fracks with hamburgs or shtreimelach?? of course they’re gonna have the real old ‘sefardi’ garb. And what are they going to be called?? If you say Moishe or Avrohom.. lets be real – they wont even turn around”
Being proud of Sphardi minhag does not entail bashing on everything Ashkenaz. Do you think King David will respond to Dabid, as would be the actual Sphardi pronunciation? Who knows and who cares what pronunciation and clothing they wore? “Old” Sphardim dressed like Arabs, Ashkenazim dress like Europeans. I doubt anybody today dresses like Moishe Rabeinu… Who cares?
Correction: David would still be pronounced David. I was tired when I wrote that.
Will that correction be let through?
I think the Teimanim would pronounce it “Thawith” (soft “th”).
Neville, you’re not understanding the way the Sephardim think.
They know for a fact that Moshe Rabbeinu spoke and dressed and behaved and ate exactly like they do. And the Ashkenazim are the unlicensed interlopers.
Here’s what a real live actual Sephardi acquaintance told me:
Moshe Rabbeinu lived in Egypt, right? So he was a Sephardi! Sephardim are therefore indisputably the real Jews!
Got that?
golfer: But Sephardim originate from Spain, Europe. So how does that work about Moshe in Egypt being a Spaniard?
Can’t say I had it quite figured out either, Joseph.
If you ever meet my friend, or a similar Sephardi, you can ask.
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