Will learning Mussar help a psychopath or Narcissist? Among others.

Today, mental health excuses are used to blame all bad behaviours.

haimy -“Should some middos problems be treated by a doctor (or therapist) rather than a mussar seder?”

You obviously are misguided. In a case where s/o is actually diagnosed with a Mental disorder, therapy/meds is an addition to Mussar, Not instead of!

Health, I’m not clear on what you mean. Unlike , say, depression and paranoia, a psychopath is basically untreatable with drugs or therapy. A psychopath lacks empathy or a conscience. Drugs can’t do anything about it. Mussar means nothing to such a person.

The way many people learn mussar, I imagine it would make very little change to their character. Simply reviewing the importance of being kind, even for a healthy person, may make a lot less real change to your habits than you might expect. It may inspire you, but without a careful, calculated approach to mussar, you will probably be disappointed and surprised most of the time that mussar is not helping much. This, I believe, is the true reason why studying mussar is not popular. It does not work. Some may comfort themselves and say that it must be helping somehow and that it’s a long road, it’s not your job to finish, just to do the best you can etc. But anyone who seriously studies the messilat yesharim will see that it requires serious thought, keeping a journal, the basis of the cheshbon hanefesh, deciding which actions are helpful, setting goals, writing them down and developing strategies to improve. Anyone who thinks about themselves will begin to see how he works and realise some obvious changes to make, often very simple. The mussar movement was very different and much more intellectual than the current approach to mussar. However a psychopath may actually be very successful with mussar, since they may be low on emotional empathy, but can often be high on cognitive empathy. A psychopath has the ability to control their actions and can actually have a lot of insights into themselves due to their intellectual ability. Maybe start a new thread on mussar, how to study and different approaches.

Jj2020; Are you advocating the death penalty even for psychopaths who aren’t serial killers?

LS -“psychopath is basically untreatable with drugs or therapy.”

NOT E/O agrees to this!
From Goodtherapy.org:
“Can Psychopathy Be Treated?
Professionals in the field often disagree on whether psychopathy is a condition that can be treated. Many believe no therapy or medication can fundamentally change the brains of those with psychopathy, but others believe there are techniques that can be effective in reducing antisocial behaviors, especially when an individual recognizes these behaviors and chooses to seek help.”

Learning mussar is good for everyone. Period. If the question is whether it will alleviate the personality disorders of narcissistic or sociopathic personality, that is rather tough. The expectation I would have, as a few earlier comments pointed out, these people are unwilling and unmotivated to change anything. And, as one comment suggested, the person with these conditions does not lose their free will, and can change behavior.

RJ pointed out that “mussar does not work”. I must believe that this statement was poorly worded, and I suspect a few other sentences in that comment were similarly not well expressed. Mussar works great, and that is why so many works have been written on the subject. That is why reb Yisroel Salanter ZT”L made a bigger issue of it, and the many yeshivos that followed that derech pushed the agenda. I suspect that this has diminished greatly in efficacy because it is being approached incorrectly. Mussar is NOT an academic subject, and it is NOT an intellectual pursuit. It is a derech of how to guide one’s attitudes and behavior to become a paragon of kedusha, encompassing both realms of בין אדם למקום as well as בין אדם לחבירו. I also believe that those mussar works that do not make a greater issue in discussion of the regular חשבון הנפש are simply directing their attention to the content of that process, feeling there was little need to emphasize the obvious.

Basically, mussar, when approached as a practical matter, not simply academic, is a staple in Avodas Hashem, and benefits all who follow it.

Lastly, there is a quote from Harav Shalom Schwadron ZT”L wherein he stated that “Teshuvah is like a washing machine; it makes clothes clean, but it does not sew on buttons.”

Little, it depends. Really there is no better Mussar than learning Gemara and Halacha (Baba Kama 30a). Some people need to be hit over the head with a hammer. Rav Soloveichik recalls in “Halachic Man” that Rav Chaim compared it to castor oil – it cures the sick and makes the healthy ill. However, a person must first want to change. Even then, as Rav Salanter said, it is harder to change a bad personal characteristic than to learn all of Shas.

Jj & Avi; I should have phrased my question better. Are you advocating the death penalty even for non murderous psychopaths?
Avi, you raise an interesting point. I read once that many CEOs and top executives are psychopaths and have taken the route you described to the top.

“Borderline, antisocial (psychopathy) and narcissistic personality disorders are almost by definition due to an underlying lack of ability to perform certain brain functions (like feeling empathy).”

Is your argument that, therefore, the person is without fault and cannot be blamed?

I would like to qualify one of the above posts that refer collectively to personality disorders. I do not personally know anyone who has been diagnosed specifically with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

However, I DO know people who fit the criterion and/or have been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. In a different thread, I assertively disagreed with a poster who stated as a fact that BPD can not be “cured”. I have since been in contact with one of the foremost professionals who specializes in BPD. She clarified, that often when people are describing a person with Borderline Personality Disorder, the person they are referring to ALSO has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This detail may explain the difference of opinion and experience I have with Borderline Personality Disorder. People who fit the criterion can definitely recover, and overcome most if not all of the symptoms with a mixture of various approaches. It is very hard work, and every step is heroic. A person who is in the process of recovery deserves a lot of support, respect, and inclusion.

If they have co-existing Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I do not claim to know the dynamics, or how one might recover from that. As a frum Jew, I find it difficult to believe that something that is truly a personality disorder can not be improved upon with the proper approach. But we are using terminology that does not clearly describe biological realities. We are using terminology that was created by humans, to describe a particular group of behavioral symptoms. Only Hashem knows where a person’s nekudas habechira lies at any given time. Maybe for some people, the nisayon is just to recognize that there is something to fix. That recognition may be a tremedous avoda in itself! (meaning it will take a considerable amount of time and effort to just acknowledge that there is a problem). And maybe that is what Hashem wants from them.

Also, I would like to second the poster who explained that treating an emotional/mental health problem allows the person to get to a place where they can THEN learn mussar, and apply it. Ironically, the people that I have encountered who have worked very hard to overcome emotional dysregulation with therapy, are already practicing actual mussar concepts; they have challenged previous thoughts and behaviors, and systematically use particular skills to CHANGE their default responses.

However, had they gone directly to a mussar sefer, the effort would have likely backfired. The first thing they would experience is guilt, self-blame, hopelessness, and other non-productive emotions. Their issues would likely get worse, and the mussar would not be able to be internalized. Because the part of the person that can integrate mussar is not functioning properly! Professional intervention is indicated for healthy function to either resume, or possibly to begin for the first time.

yes if you connecting with it

Avi: I was referring to narcissistic personality disorder, not psychopathology. I don’t know anything about antisocial personality disorder, or whether it is in fact the universally accepted description of a psychopath (as Midwest2 posted), or whether the Rambam’s definition of a sheid does in fact refer to a psychopath.

I was Thinking out loud about what might be a window of bechira for someone who has narcissistic personality disorder, which I acknowledged I know very little about!

Thinking, that is also Hashem’s cheshbon. The point is will learning Mussar help him. If he finds out about Slobodka’s sheeta he would probably become an even bigger narcissist. He would just reject Navardok out of hand.
NPD is different than APD, which is similar to psychopathology. Both seem to be genetic. If so we will have to wait for genetic engineering to work on people who have already been born. From what I understand there is no clear evidence as to NPD’s causes. However, a Mussar yeshiva will not do the job by itself.

If a Person really is very seriously Mentally Ill and cannot control himself then he is not responsible

mental Illness can be a really horrible thing and very severe

zd -“If a Person really is very seriously Mentally Ill and cannot control himself then he is not responsible”

In reality – there are very few like this. just look at the court system – many in jail are Psychopaths, but they weren’t eligble for an Insanity defense!

It is almost amusing to read some of the comments here. The basic knowledge about mental illness seems to be almost completely missing in many comments. Having a diagnosis that is within the realm of psychiatric disorder is not the same as legally insane. In fact, mental health professionals struggle with testimony on court, where lawyers and judges need information that follows the terminology and criteria of the law, which is vastly different from the nomenclature and labels used by the professions. Example: psychotic is not a legal term. Insane is not a clinical one. Someone suffering from anxiety carries a clinical diagnosis of a psychiatric nature. That does not qualify to be exempt from responsibility for the commission of a crime, or from standing trial.

Before making these bold and general statements, a bit of professional study would be worthwhile. Without that, the statements are rather close to gibberish.

TLIK – yes, some of the posts in this thread are uninformed or misinformed, but I remember a time when discussing anything to do with mental health was strictly taboo. In at least one case that I know of, a clinically depressed bachur killed himself because his parents were too afraid of the stigma to get him help. Who knows how many other lives were ruined because their suffering was kept in the shadows? Torah Umesorah gets the credit for being the first frum organization to arrange mental health care for yeshivas, and since then we have seen much, much progress.

I’m just happy to see that the subject can be discussed in the open now. If people are willing to talk and listen, misconceptions can be corrected, and those who need help can get it.

I would also like to add, a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder will not likely go into treatment…. by choice. However, due to things they may do that hurt others, they may end up in mandated treatment. Apparently, there are ways to slowly have an impact, where the person can (with much difficulty) recognize that they do have a problem. What I said above, is that maybe getting to a place where they recognize that they have a problem at all, is the goal of treatment. There are approaches that have worked. There are many approaches that do not work at all. That much I know. But again, NPD is not a DX that I have personal experience with. I do have first-hand experience with a number of other diagnosed mental health conditions.

TOL: “I would also like to add, a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder will not likely go into treatment…. by choice. However, due to things they may do that hurt others, they may end up in mandated treatment.”

What would someone with NPD likely do that violates laws severely enough that a court would force him into a mandatory program?

TOL, no. I do not read every single post.