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There has been conversation and threads opened up about “crazy Chabad mishichistim” who believe that the Rebbe is still alive and he is Moshiach. I never wrote articles on this forum before and i didn.t think i ever would, but then I read your comments and I realized that I would need to explain you guys a few things you should know about Chabad messianism that you apparently don’t know already.
first of all, I want to make a clear distintion between two types of Lubavitchers under two terms that people tend to confuse and mix up with one anotherThere are “Mishichistim” which believe that the Rebbe is moshiach whether he is alive or not. this is one of the core beliefs of Lubavitch nowadays.
And then there are “Tzfatim” which are fanatical Bochurim from – as their name suggests – Tzfas, Israel, and they wave Moshiach flags and scream Yechi in the street and give out brochures to strangers proclaiming the Rebbe as King Moshiach. these people are not at all “gezhe” which means that they are not from the original group of Lubavitchers that came to America 70 years ago when the Frierdiker Rebbe arrived in America. Most of them have only become affiliated with Chabad after the Rebbe’s passing, and they have never seen the Rebbe or have been at his funeral. What they do is obviously wrong and they are a “bissel meshugah” but they are not the example of your typical Lubavitcher and they should not be looked as such.
With that made clear, let me move on to the some of the basic things you should know about Chabad “Mishichistim”.
The Rebbe did not have any children and therefore, there was no one to fill his place as Nosi Hador. Therefore, even after his death, he is still the Nosi Hador and we believe that he is Moshiach. It is stated in Rambam somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach. Being that the Rebbe is our teacher we believe that he is Moshiach even though he past away 23 years ago.
There are meforshim that say Moshiach can come from the dead, therefore it is possible that the Rebbe passed away AND he is Moshiach, which automatically makes Chabad’s claim – that the Rebbe is Moshiach – less ridiculous.It is a well known fact that the Rebbe is higher than nature. There are countless stories of him curing speech impaired, or deaf, or blind children, childless couples, and much more. Maybe I will post some miraculous stories below later, but the main point is that the Rebbe was an other – worldy person who was higher than nature. Therefore, discussions whether he passed away or not, are not for us to talk about because really, we don’t know. The Rebbe was a holy person whose death is something unknown to us and we cant decide what really happened.
I hope I have helped you guys to gain some clarity on this controversial topic. Thank you, for anyone who reads this article and lets all prepare to great Moshiach – whoever he is – with acts of goodness and kindness and that will help hasten his arrival, hopefully speedily in our days, Amen.
I really don’t get the point of opening a new thread and then just giving a worse explanation than the previous thread.
You literally give no sources for anything you say (other than mentioning that something is stated in a Rambam somewhere, which I happen to be very skeptical about).
“The Rebbe did not have any children and therefore, there was no one to fill his place as Nosi Hador. ”
That logic doesnt follow. Moshe Rabbeinu’s children didnt succeeed him neither did Yehoshua’s Nor Osniel, nor Ehud ben geria etc etc. The leader of a Dor doesnt have to be the son of the previous leader.
“. It is stated in Rambam somewhere ”
where?
“– I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone”
Ok Im asking you
” – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach.”good luck finding it, dont look too hard there is no such Rambam.
Being that the Rebbe is our teacher we believe that he is Moshiach even though he past away 23 years ago.
“Maybe I will post some miraculous stories below later”
dont bother there are stories about Mother Teresa too. That doesnt make her Moshiach.“Therefore, discussions whether he passed away or not, are not for us to talk about because really, we don’t know. ”
Um we do. there were thousands at his levaye.“The Rebbe was a holy person”
Agreed so stop degrading him with ridiculous claims.“I hope I have helped you guys to gain some clarity ”
Ok that you did.
You conclusivly demontarted that, at least for some meshichists, the entire idea is built on an illogical premise (namely if a leader has no sons he remains leader forever) and a fake source (the made up Ramabam that every teacher is msohiach)Ubiq/Chochom
“It is stated in Rambam somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach.”
“somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where”
HUH!? So you are basing the very core YESOD on Yehadut on something you haven’t even bothered to look up, or don’t exactly know where!?!!!
I rest my case…
Ubiq – I seriously think we are wasting our time – besides the fact that NO such Rambam exists!
(At least in Yad and most of haMorah – from what I have studied)
There’s amazing videos .
One video that stands out is the rebbe asking a mute boy to say Moideh Ani and the boy was able to say it.There’s amazing videos…
Wow. Now I’m convinced
personally, already in the previous threads my eyes were opened as to the foundations and nature of chabad. i thank you though for giving support to my new elucidated understanding. i always suspected as much but it is important that you and the others have confirmed it so clearly.
One thing is obvious to me. It is far more important to invest one’s time and energy in doing Hashem’s mitzvos than in trying to convince anyone that the rebbe is Moshiach. And I fervently believe that the Rebbe would agree completely. He was not too happy with the chassidim saying that many years before he died.
The message of mofsim is that there is a G-d, and that He will enlist tzaddikim to make them happen in order to increase Kvod Shomayim. They are not to be used to increase the kavod of a bosor vodom. That is a horrible diversion of kedusha. Tzaddikim are terrific assets, but to deify them is frank avodah zarah.
I follow the Rambam’s 13 principles of emunoh. He never, ever suggested that when one recites the one about Moshiach that one should concentrate on any specific person.
I would love to see this thread closed.
asking a mute boy to say Moideh Ani and the boy was able to say it.”
What is the point?Hmm I recall some religion saying the exact same just with blind”…
Judaism isn’t really about miracles…@Chochom,
“It is stated in Rambam somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach. ”
Please, please stop it. You are making all of Lubavitch look crazy because of your silly narishkaiten. Anyone well versed in Rambam (and as a Lubavitcher you most definitely should be, unless you’re a woman) knows that such a Rambam doesn’t exist. It simply doesn’t. I’ve never even heard anyone claim it does. Where you get your info is beyond me.Note to all Lubavitcher Chassidim following these threads:
Stop talking nonsense. Stop being mevaze the Rebbes name. If you don’t have anything to say about Lubavitch that portrays us in a positive light, then don’t say anything at all. It never ceases to amaze me how a Lubavitcher will come on this forum and spew sheer and utter nonsensical ideas about Lubavitch and about the Rebbe.
@770Chabad,
Your statements don’t do much good either.Five threads and approximately 273 postings later, no Chabadnik Is going to convince a single member of another chassidus, much less a true Litvisher skeptic that the Rebbe is alive/niftar and is/will be moishiach. However, even assuming they are all a bunch of meshugaaim in total denial of reality, Chabad does more for yiddeshkeit than any other segment of the tizbur. Not sure what is gained by continuing to engage in these online theological debates.
GH:
My issue with this subject is not whether their claim has merit or not. My point is that this is a terrible diversion of energy that needs to go into bring Kavod Shomayim to the world, and into this silliness. I would accept the \rebbe as Moshiach, if it turned out to be him. But I will not waste my time trying to prove this or making my life into a promoter of the idea. It is more important to engage in Torah, Avodah, and Gemilus Chassodim. And I believe the Rebbe ZT”L himself would agree.
Its in perek 11 of Rambam
@Chochom,
“Sorry, it isn’t in Rambam i got confused. The Gemara discusses many times Talmidim that believed that their Rebbe is Moshiach. therefore we emulate them.”
So you went from it being a Halacha in Rambam, to it being a Gemara which tells us that an amora believed his Rebbe will be Moshiach. That Gemara does exist, and there were Chassidim of different Chassidusen in the past that believed that their Rebbe would be Moshiach. So what? Does that mean that everyone has to believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?
Your are making a Chilul Hashem berabim, being mevaze the Rebbe, and being meracheik Yidden from Chassidus. This doesn’t bring Moshiach any closer.“I thought it was Rambam but maybe it was an article in Hamodiah or a schmooz I heard at my Shver’s niece’s afruf, but whats the difference, Moishiach is Moishiach”……
I have to agree with Sechele…..even the world’s biggest misnaged couldn’t have done a better job of being mevaze the Rebbe and making Lubavitch look like a bunch of meshugaim than Chacham. Even if the Rebbe was among us, this thread would likely make him think twice about some of his alleged chassidim.@Chochom,
How ironic that someone who calls himself Chochom can make up Rambams at will.חכם” מבחינת סגי נהור”
Interesting that none of the rishonim or achronim explain the gemara, that these talmidim literally believed their rebbe to be moshiach. But in the last 30 years the gemara became THE source that may ( should?) believe their rebbe is moshiach.
“Your are … being meracheik Yidden from Chassidus. ”
You say that like it’s a bad thing…
Chochom:
You are suffering from a serious cognitive disorder. You begin with a conclusion, and them seek to rationalize it. You have decided, for reasons that nothing to do with Rambam, Gemorah, or any other Torah source, that your Rebbe is Moshiach. Now, you are frantically searching for a reference somewhere that you can interpret to support your position, and then claim that this idea comes from that source. That is intellectual dishonesty, and it is to be shunned and disgraced. This is sometimes referred to in the words of the Chachomim as מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. You need a serious wake up call.
Chochom,
Thank you for starting this thread. If I may, I have some questions about your comments:
The Rebbe did not have any children and therefore, there was no one to fill his place as Nosi Hador. Therefore, even after his death, he is still the Nosi Hador
I would argue with the idea that the Rebbe is or was the Nasi HaDor, for several reasons:
1. There is no actual position of Nasi HaDor.
2. But even if you just colloqueally mean that he was recognized as the leader of his generation, I would still disagree. While it is true that he was “a” leader in his generation, there are many Jews (both in the Orthodox world and without) who would not have recognized him as the pre-eminent leader of world Jewry.
3. From where do you draw this idea that if the Nasi HaDor has no selected successor that he retains the post eternally. This would not be the rule for an actual, literal king, so why should it be the rule for the Nasi HaDor? And, if applied universally, eventually most if not all movements would be leaderless, as eventually leaders do die without selected successors.and we believe that he is Moshiach. It is stated in Rambam somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach.
With all due respect, I’m believe that you are mistaken on this. If such a text exists, I am certain that it probably says something along the lines of that you must treat your teacher as such, or should view him as such, but you cannot be commanded to believe that he is Moshiach. What if I know my teacher is a good man who can teach me things, but clearly does not have the knowledge or temperament to be Moshiach?
Of course, an even better question to ask is, what if my teacher is a Kohen? He cannot be Moshiach. Must I believe him to be so anyway in spite of the fact that he cannot be so.
Being that the Rebbe is our teacher we believe that he is Moshiach even though he past away 23 years ago. There are meforshim that say Moshiach can come from the dead,
There is a gemara that says that, but that does not mean that that gemara is unversally accepted.
therefore it is possible that the Rebbe passed away AND he is Moshiach, which automatically makes Chabad’s claim – that the Rebbe is Moshiach – less ridiculous.
The problem with the claim is not that he is dead, but that he did not fulfill the requirements as laid out.
It is a well known fact that the Rebbe is higher than nature. There are countless stories of him curing speech impaired, or deaf, or blind children, childless couples, and much more. Maybe I will post some miraculous stories below later, but the main point is that the Rebbe was an other – worldy person who was higher than nature. Therefore, discussions whether he passed away or not, are not for us to talk about because really, we don’t know. The Rebbe was a holy person whose death is something unknown to us and we cant decide what really happened.
Firstly, I do not believe it is well known that this is true, but let’s put that aside for a moment. Even if the above is true, curing the sick and helping the childless conceive are NOT the requirements of Moshiach. Those are well laid out in the Rambam and the Rebbe, of blessed memory, did not fulfill them.
I hope I have helped you guys to gain some clarity on this controversial topic. Thank you, for anyone who reads this article and lets all prepare to great Moshiach – whoever he is – with acts of goodness and kindness and that will help hasten his arrival, hopefully speedily in our days, Amen.
Amen!
The Wolf
And yet I, humble Little Froggie, will also attempt to explain the mishicist fiasco. And like other writers here, they are based upon certain ‘yesodos’, steps… Note, also, sources are based upon my own say-so…
Gemarah talks about the ‘famous’ Shalosh Sevuos. And the Gemarah continues שלא ידחקו את הקץ, literally and figuratively – don’t push it!
We are to daven in earnest, have a real and live צפייה as expounded, explained and clarified in numerous seforim. Indeed a vast part of our davening is directed to that end. Longing for Moshiach, for the Shechina, for the Avodah, for the very Jewish lifestyle HaShem intended…. It is our קיום throughout the very long and bitter galus.. which has taken on so many forms and shapes.
By some people, mostly the sublime, loftier, holier, this craving comes as a natural. Of course they crave for the holy Shechina, that’s their very essence. They’re more in touch with their Nashama… it’s the rest of המון עם to attain such a level of צפייה.
However, we are bound by these shevuos not to ‘push it’. A regular prayer, craving, yearning (and at times sitting on the ground) as explained in various seforim. But there’s a concept of ‘pushing it’. To forcefully bring it on. And that, HaShem does not want. Tzaddikim and righteous people do have a power to effect… but עצת ה’ היא תקום. At the end of the day (morning noon and evening too), He’s in charge. He is smarter than everyone, everyone with all their cheshbonos and calculation…. He knows just when. And we are bidden ‘not to force him’ so to speak.
I’ve come across ‘projects’ of this sort, where outstanding tzadikim ‘just couldn’t take it any more’, couldn’t hold out any longer and decided to ‘BRING’ Mashiach. One such incident I think (haven’t read that in many a year) goes back about 1,000 years ago. The holy group girded themselves for this difficult task, purified themselves long and hard. And every step of the way they were at first dissuaded (by various classes of heavenly angles), but after they stated their burning desired they were again cautioned, but also encouraged on. As the story goes they actually succeeded in capturing the samech mem and were proceeding to advance to Har Tzion… when it fell through (obviously it was not the right time). And how they were punished!! Of the four, two died on the spot, one went berserk and one was smitten with machlos r”l so bad for the rest of his life…. It’s an הנהגה of our בריאה and HaShem does not wish for us to interfere. Meddling into His domain backfires.
Another instance which comes to mind is about three Tzadikim on a roof… they came together from three different places, purified themselves and then went onto a roof ‘to bring Mashiach’. We cannot fathom their calculations, their thoughts, their emotions, their cravings… But obviously it was not the right time; it was not the will of HaShem. And then again, tragically, it backfired terribly.. they all suffered greatly. (I think one was niftar on Tisha B’av)
There were Tzadikim in our days who had an extra dose of צפייה. I remember Rav Nosson Vachtfogel, how he spoke and sang about Mashiach, how he visualized it. He lived and breathed with Moshiach on his conscience. (They say he always carried a suitcase with special clothing to greet Mashiach). Before him was of course the Chafetz Chaim.. he instituted a Kolel Kadshim.. to be ready for Mashiach.. It was on this thoughts constantly. A lot of his Sefarim talk about Mashiach.
But all this is in the category of צפייה. Extra craving, yearning… Another Manhig in our day, a real, unquestionable Tzaddik and Oved HaSHem, decided (for whatever reason, again we cannot fathom his reasoning) to push it a step further, and go for it. Slowly, from early on, while not declaring himself to be the Mashiach, has constantly been on it, pushing and pushing. The Bais Din… the talks… the Rambam… that was ‘pushing it’. Anyone with a trained eye saw he was pushing it. And, no question about it, he yielded great power in all Olamos. But HaShem willed it NOT. And it too backfired. Terribly. Of epic proportions. Take a look at these כתות that have evolved of late. Even the כת of ש”צ went lost after some years.. Here r”l it’s just getting stronger and nuttier.
These loonies won’t say זכרונו לברכה when mentioning his name even though זכרונו לברכה should be said upon mentioning a LIVING tzaddik (look at Rashi, parshas Vyera, ואברהן היה יהיה). There’s this ‘CONCEPT’ of ‘Gimel Tamuz’!! Indeed, others have a Yom Tov that day – it’s the day he came out of the hospital!!! And it’s taking a life of its own. A clan of disillusioned, out of touch with reality. A multitude of people in total DENIAL. To my opinion – that all a backfire. A terrible one.
Anytime I see someone with “the” Yarmulka, I say “here goes another… stand clear!” Another belonging to that clan of disillusioned…
Real Chassidim were devastated at the Petira of their Mentor, each community their own, they felt lost.. . And then they moved on.. Either there was another Manhig (often with a new Hanhaga) to adapt to, some adjusting… and life continued. As HaShem so ordained.. דור דור ודורשיו, older Manhigim finish their task.. new ones surface…In places where no Manhig is in place to be instated, Chasidim continue in the path of the past Manhig / Manhigim.. having lesser Manhigim, Madrichim to guide in the path of the aforementioned. But מהאט זיך א עצה געגעבן. These however have not. They were and are in total denial. And as opposed to what a Godol once said of them, I posit by some they’re not the closest resembling Yiddishkite anymore.
Yearn for it. Daven hard for it But don’t push it.
-My humble opinion
{Standing ovation emoji}
my impression. its only an impression. but its very strong. is that what is occurring here is that there are sincere followers who are revealing to us the drivel that they have been fervently and powerfully and cleverly inculcated in. they innocently believe it to be true and wish to share it.
then there are the cognitively intelligent leaders who are trying to shut them up because it has been geposkined from the top to present a carefully constructed facade of sheker to the rest of the world.@Feivel,
“because it has been geposkined from the top to present a carefully constructed facade of sheker to the rest of the world.”
So you think I’m lying to you when I tell you the Rebbe was strongly against all this? And in fact once told his secretary that he won’t walk inside the shul again until his secretary promised that Yechi wouldn’t be sung again?
Am I lying when I categorically state that the Rebbe never claimed to be Moshiach?
Am I deceiving you when I write that I don’t believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach?I’m wondering how many Litvish members of the CR, after having read through these several threads over the past few days, felt compelled motzi shabbios to run out and purchase yellow flags and today were marching up and down Eastern Parkway screaming “yechi”??/
Is there a reason someone like the Chazon Ish isn’t also nasi hador? He created a frum community and hareadi movement in Israel. Is it simply he didn’t say so? Would there be a way to verify? And if not, does Chabad believe in an infinite number of moshiach or nisiam ha door? Let me Kno when if this was answered in other posts
It would seem that your Rebbe, tz’l, was a great Talmid Chochom, Leader, and Tzaddik. I wasn’t referring to him.
To all those who have been bashing me mercilessly these past few days:
Do you really think my questions to you are “bashing” and “merciless?”
I didnt realize that you guys would make mountains out of mole hills out of that explanation I gave u guys.
Asking questions regarding your points is not “making mountains out of molehills.”
I was simply trying to explain to you close minded folk, that the concept of the rebbe being moshiach is a lot more complicated than you think
The fact that I asked you questions (rather than simply dismissed what you said) shows that I am not close minded at all. I’m willing to hear your explainations, but if you expect me to just accept it without thinking about it critically at all – *that* would be close-minded.
Your comments just go to show that opposition against Chabad has never ceased.
I have no opposition to Chabad. I just don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach. Asking you to defend your belief that he is Moshiach is not “opposition to Chabad” (unless, of course, you believe that any disagreement with your beliefs is opposition; but I don’t believe that to be so.)
So, again, I ask you to address my questions, without accusing me of being “close minded” and “in opposition to you.” Neither of those assertions is true.
The Wolf
And read the above too… we are the closed minded people!!! Exactly what I wrote… that is fallout from a failed attempt to hasten… They’re not rational.. we cannot have a normal conversation, a normal back and forth… Chochom, care to read my above post? (assuming you comprehend the English language)
It is YOU GUYS who are making a mokery of Lubavitch, of the Chabad derech and all it’s Greats. Who ever heard of not affording their OWN REBBE a proper levaya? Gevald!! תלמיד חכם שלא נספד כהלכה. His aron (dare I say that word?!?) was rushed through, I hadn’t a chance to be melaveh properly. I came up from the subway and there are these crazies DANCING yechi… When the aron was brought out there was a sudden outburst of shouting and shrieking all around. I listened intently; “Rebbe, wake up!!” They ran with the aron in fear… Gevald!!! Is that an honor one afford one’s OWN Rebbe, Manhig? Shame, shame and shame.
And WE are the closed minded people!!!
K I see why it’s not going thru…
Basically it’s Melochim Perek 11. Speaks all about moshiach :
Why don’t you try not talking out of both sides of your mouth for once. Lubavitcher chassidim believe The Rebbe is Moshiach because The Rebbe teaches that The Rebbe is Moshiach. Period and of sentence full stop. Stop obscuring The Rebbe’s torah by pretending like you don’t understand simple logic and that chassidim made up that The Rebbe is moshiach because chassidim are supposed to feel that about their rebbe etc. The Rebbe said clearly that the Nasi Hador is Moshiach, and very clearly referred to himself as such. The reason he was not succeeded by any other rebbe or nasi is because he said that his generation is the last generation, and defined generations as being the leadership times of Nesiim.
And now another installment:
The reason no one succeeded him, and the reason they felt so desperate is because of something else. There’s a known story (sippur) I believe it was the great Maggid of Mezritch (forgot the beginning of the story) who had two great students before him. One was the great Baal HaTanya (incidentally he authored the Tanya), another was his colleague, another great Chassidic Master. Said the Maggid (think it was him): “This one (pointing to the Baal Hatanya) will have seven doros, and this one (the other one) will have until Mashiach’s day”.
Yes, his words live on. Seven means seven. And the other, their dynasty ב”ה does continue on קע”ה.
So if it was only seven didn’t it make sense to have Mashiach directly afterwards?!? I truly belive that was the ‘mekor’ for the ‘seven doros’, and that apparent;y was their rush to hasten his coming.But it doesn’t mean the DERECH of the Lubavitch, the path of all it’s Rebbes are to be lost. That’s their mistake. It’s the end of the line of Rebbes. Now we have their teachings, maamorim etc. And Lubavith Chassidim ought to continue in their path. It’s high time for them to finally totally and emesdig adapt to a lifestyle of LEARNING from the teachings of ALL Rebbes זכרונם לברכה, instead of having a live Rebbe guiding them. ‘Cause obviously that’s רצון השם. HaShem knew exactly how long the world needed his guidance… that is the most literal meaning of דיין האמת. HaShem looked at it from all sides and then decided what he should do.
If the Lubavite Rebbe נ”ע haden’t the time or presence of mind to arrange for a future (I posit it’s because he really thought he was going to ‘make’ Mashiach come)… now is the time for some true leadership. Let them set up a system, hierarchy of Rabbonim, leaders… LEADERSHIP. Not at the level of Rebbe ח”ו, only as Madrichim. So that a dynasty so great as Lubavitch continues on, and does not fade like so many other חדרים in the Chassidic world. I think it’s high time for them to reclaim Lubavitch. With a ברעקל אמת. ‘Cause that’s the only way it’s gonna go.
Lubavitcher chassidim believe The Rebbe is Moshiach because The Rebbe teaches that The Rebbe is Moshiach. Period and of sentence full stop.
5ish – assuming you are Lubavitch and assuming you are the mentsch you appear to be I am asking this only to you and with full sincerity. Given the above quote of yours, is it therefore hard to understand why someone who is not lubavitch would have a problem with that, given that our Torah sources need always be outside of just a person declaring himself IT?
Quite amazing how many times these Lubavitcher apologists include the phrase “I forget exactly where”
Little Froggie –
Which many other חדרים in the Chassidic world faded away? (Are you speaking of the ones the Nazis ym’s liquidated?)
Also, can you expound and explain the stories you referenced about 1000 years ago and another about three tzaddikim and other historical events you refer to where people tried to “force” Moshiach to come and how they were stopped/punished?
For real understanding of chabad messianism
see “What Really Happens When Prophecy Fails: The Case of Lubavitch.” by Simon Dein (available online)Can any of the overtly meshichist posters who say to Rebbe claimed to be Moshiach provide a source of him explicitly saying that? Trust me, us evil, antagonistic misnagdim would really like to see it.
@Syag. I no doubt understand that that is something difficult for people to understand which is why I ordinarily am not one to have such discussions. However, when a Lubavitcher comes along and says misleading things I believe it is absolutely necessary to delineate things in order to prevent the falsification of The Rebbe’s Torah. The fact that a Lubavitcher can hide their head in the sand, and G-d forbid pull the wool over other people’s eyes is a frightening and rebellious act. Rachmana Letzlan, because of these types of behaviors there are well meaning chassidim who are actually confused and actually believe false things about The Rebbe and what The Rebbe says. The Rebbe is The Rebbe and The Rebbe’s Torah is the The Rebbe’s Torah and The Rebbe can stand on his words and doesn’t need anyone to come and twist it this way or that way to him look better, G-d forbid.
Why don’t you try not talking out of both sides of your mouth for once.
In what way do you believe that I’ve been talking out of both sides of my mouth? Have I said something that is self-contradictory?
Lubavitcher chassidim believe The Rebbe is Moshiach because The Rebbe teaches that The Rebbe is Moshiach. Period and of sentence full stop.
Has the Lubatvicher Rebbe, of blessed memory, actually made a clear, unequivocal statement that he is Moshiach?
And, of course, even if he has, he still has not fulfilled the requirements of Moshiach as laid down in the Rambam.
Stop obscuring The Rebbe’s torah by pretending like you don’t understand simple logic and that chassidim made up that The Rebbe is moshiach because chassidim are supposed to feel that about their rebbe etc.
So much to cover here.
Firstly, I make it a personal point to never ascribe to malice that which can be ascribed to ignorance. How about if, instead of accusing me of faking ignorance, be dan l’kaf z’chus and assume that the questions I ask are asked at face value. I promise you, that’s how they’re meant.
“Made up?” Are you implying that the their belief is fictional? Obviously that’s not right and either you’re not being clear or I am misunderstanding. Can you please clarify what you mean by “chassidim made up that the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
In any event, Is that really true that chassidim are supposed to feel that way about their rebbe? Do Belz chassidim believe that their rebbi is Moshiach? Do Satmar chassidim believe that their rebbe is Moshiach? Certainly the Breslov chassidim don’t. In fact, I’ve never heard any chossid, aside from a Chabad chossid, proclaim their rebbe as Moshiach. So you certainly can’t say that it’s universal that chassidim are supposed to believe that their rebbe is Moshiach.
The Rebbe said clearly that the Nasi Hador is Moshiach, and very clearly referred to himself as such.
First of all, it must be pointed out that Moshiach is NOT the Nasi HaDor — Moshiach is a king, plain and simple. But that’s really beside the point. Simply because the Lubavitcher Rebbe proclaimed something to be so does not mean that it is so — certainly for those of us who do not believe that everything the Rebbe, of blessed memory, says automatically defines reality. If you’re talking to people who aren’t Chassidei Chabad, you can’t just assume that they will accept that what the Rebbe says is.
The Wolf
He obviously did NOT ascribe, or claim to be Moshiach EVER. He even had a sefer written – TO BE MEKABEL PNEI MOSHIACH. And I don’t think he was schizophrenic. He was awaiting (or as I wrote earlier PUSHING FOR) to greet another human being. PERIOD,
People pushing their agenda, their Toras luckshen as ‘Chassidus’ or of that sort, are only writing the Third Testament! They’re in good company. Season’s gr…
Read what I wrote earlier. There was never such an occurrence in Klal Yisroel, where one’s OWN Talmidim, followers heaped such scorn and Busha לאחר פטירתו.
Little Froggie – I had some questions for you up above.
He obviously did NOT ascribe, or claim to be Moshiach EVER.
The Brisker Rav, among others, disagrees with you.
DaasYochid – What exactly did the Brisker Rov say, and what’s your source for that?
DY; I believe the lashon of the Brisker Rav after reading the Rebbe’s first Maamar, Basi Legani was “Der mentch red zich ayn, az er iz Moshiach”
The Brisker Rav said:
דער ועט זיך נאך איין ריידן אז ער איז משיח
עכ”ל – as far as I remember hearing. I heard it from a highly reliable source.וחכם עדיף מנביא..
I heard it slightly differently, but it’s a similar statement.
Maybe your versions are more precise, but it’s pretty well known.
Wolfish,
Sorry for misunderstanding. My comments were not directed at you, they were directed at a Lubavitch who I believe was being misleading. In that context I believe your questions fall away as it is not you I was trying to convince of anything, nor accusing of anything. Also I used the word chassidim contextually to mean Lubavitchers.
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