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On special occasions, like my birthday or our anniversary, my Husband asks me to sit at the head of the shabbos table, in his usual place. I am wondering if anyone sees a problem with this since I never saw this anywhere else? Also, if we have guests that particular shabbos, do we need to “explain” that this is an exceptional shabbos – not to be “maras ayim” of being feminist c’v?
Can a King allow anyone else to sit on his throne?
I think we pasken like Shammai in your case.
My mother sat at the head of our Shabbos table for twelve years.
-42, let me guess…. Hitler sat at the head of his table too, right?
The Wolf
“Can a King allow anyone else to sit on his throne?”
I was just reading in Orchos Tzaddikim, Gate of Humility, in which the author relates a story of a king who got up among his subjects and fixed a lamp. They asked him why he would do that, because it would seem beneath his dignity, and he replied “I arose a king and returned a king.”
In any event, men are supposed to honor their wives more than themselves, and sitting at the head of a table on a birthday or anniversary seems like a reasonable way to do that.
you’d better be careful if it’s like shlomo’s throne as you could end up with a broken leg from the lion if you don’t get on the right way
Wolf: Why do you fail to mention the most relevant fact that your mother was the only parent figure at the table?
yytz: And wives are supposed to fear their husbands and treat him as a King. (As Rambam and many others mention.)
Wolf: Why do you fail to mention the most relevant fact that your mother was the only parent figure at the table?
It didn’t seem like it would be relevant to the OP.
And, in the end, what does it matter? The fact is that she did sit at the head of the table. And, for a number of years, she also made kiddush/hamotzi and havdala for us.
The Wolf
All these feminist posts by Golden Trolling are getting really old. They aren’t funny or amusing, and they’re causing machlokes and might be making people nichshal in questioning Klall Yisrael’s traditions when nobody in the CR finds a good enough source to justify our own minhagim that have held for thousands of years. Not to mention The Wolf is getting sucked into this pro feminist trap like a planet into a blackhole. For goodness’ sake I am requesting we drop the feminist instigation, and endless trolling please.
“Rebbetzin”, your problem is that you’re looking at other people for what is right and wrong.
Your husband wants to be mechabed you!
is that curiosity transmitting from mars?
I think you are all missing the point.
Each parent has their roll in their home and in their raising of their children. There is not enough space here to go into all the details, but…
For whatever reason, the father’s/husband’s place is at the head of the table. The mother plays a different roll at the seuda, sitting with her children etc., for whatever reason. This is in no way, ch”v, showing that a mother’s/wife’s roll is any less important than the roll of the man. It is just a different roll, albeit at least as important.
When a husband “honors” his wife to sit in his seat, he is sending a message that sitting in that seat is more honorable, chashuv, and important than sitting where his wife usually sits. This sends a message to the children that husband/ father is king. Mommy/wife is slave. This is not a good message!
Children must realize that even though their father and mother have different rolls in their homes, they are both equally important. Maybe their mother does not sit at the head of the table because she is showing more of the ahava, the softer hand which the children need. The father is showing more of a fear- yirah- which the children also need. The children need the mothers softness and their father’s firmness. They are both equally important.
Don’t give over the wrong message. Don’t let children think that Mommy is not as important as Totty, and for Mommy’s b-day she gets to be as important as Totty for a day.
This is not a good message! Not a good idea!! Both parents are important for what they do!!
Shlishi:
“yytz: And wives are supposed to fear their husbands and treat him as a King. (As Rambam and many others mention.”
I pray to god you wrote that in a casual manner. FEAR their husbands?! Do we live in Iran? Where does fear come in to a healthy, productive, & stable marriage? Honor? Yes. Love? Of course. Be inspired by? Absolutely. FEAR?!
NOMTHW: Yes, fear in the same sense one is to fear their father or, lehavidl, Hashem. Rambam and many many meforshim say this. See the other thread where the sources are quoted to a great extent.
I’m getting a troll vibe (pun intended) here…
Yes, fear in the same sense one is to fear their father or, lehavidl, Hashem. Rambam and many many meforshim say this. See the other thread where the sources are quoted to a great extent.
Then I guess that in addition to being a horrible person, I am a rotten parent who has abused his kids because he did not make them afraid of him. Further proof that I am an apikores and a waste of human DNA. A dog is better than I am — at least a dog knows how to properly take care of it’s pups, as opposed to me who just messes them up further and further with every passing day.
The Wolf
Shlishi: Wrong. Fear is not the proper translation of Mora. Awe would be a much better translation.
NOMTHW,
Fear does not mean being afraid, like a he’s a tyrant. It means, in our modern terms, to have respect like not sitting in his place, not contradicting his words, etc. All this (and more) is written in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De’ah 241.
A rectangular table has two “heads”, where does it say that a wife can’t sit on the other head of the table?
Sam: This isn’t a debate over the semantics of the translation. We can both agree that the “mora” means that she should not sit in her father or husbands seat. And she should stand up when her father or husband comes into the room.
Shlishi: I’m not disagreeing with any Halachos. That was not the implication I got from your post though. I apologize if it was just my misinterpretation. (And, by the way, if you want to be M’dameh Kavod for a husband to that for a father, then the husband can be Mochel on her sitting in his seat.)
In our early years of marriage we often spent Shabbos at my husband’s Rebbie’s house (this person was his Rebbie in High School – Mesivta, and my husband maintained a close kesher with him. He and his wife, used to sit next to one another in arm chairs, at the long side of the table further from the entrance to the dining room. I thought it a very nice way of doing things, and now being a Bubby, I still think so.
Bubby B
I’m not sure I understand this thread. While certainly not universal, in many, many homes the wife/mother always sites at the head of the table. right across from the husband/father who sits at the other head.
I sued to sit at the other head of the table. Then I realized I really preferred to sit next to my husband. He sits at the head, and I, to his immediate right. Is this really so important that we need to debate it?
“Morah” means to be in awe of, not necessarily to be afraid. And the Torah speaks of Morah Eim v’Av. We should not fear our parents, but we should hold them in awe and with kovod. It is hard to feel safe with a human being who makes us feel afraid of him or her.
i know of a choshuve yid’ a cousin of my father, who sits with his wife side by side at the top
“I sued to sit at the other head of the table.”
You must have really wanted to 🙂
I sued to sit at the other head of the table
You went to court over this? And does a court even have jurisdiction over this? 🙂
The Wolf
“I sued to sit at the other head of the table.”
You must have really wanted to 🙂 “
APY and Wolf – see what happens when I post when I have not had enough sleep?
We just procured a round table, & my neighbor has a square table rather than a rectangular table.
Could someone explain me, where to sit the father & grandfather & mother & grandmother & rabbi on this round table, so that no-one’s place on the hierarchy is in anyway diminished whatsoever from the Kovod due to him/her?
BTW this table is non returnable, so please don’t answer me to return the roundtable and go & procure a rectangular table.
147 – trolling?
Curiosity: All his posts are trolling, some just slightly less so than others.
when u sit at the head do u get served?
if u do, then its worth it.lol
“NOMTHW: Yes, fear in the same sense one is to fear their father or, lehavidl, Hashem. Rambam and many many meforshim say this. See the other thread where the sources are quoted to a great extent.”
I still disagree with you. A husband should not be feared. I don’t know where this concept came from. Spouses should be respected, admired, cherished and honored.
Fear? Please..
On Pesach my wife and I both sit at the head of the table. However she does not get the royal treatment of having the washing cup and bowl brought to her at the table. But that is only because she is bringing the above to her Father who comes to our Seder every year. Another interesting note about Pesach. The Sedarrim are the only 2 Shabbos or YomTov meals that the Rebba here in Forshay eats with his whole family sitting together at one table. That includes men and women, boys and girls.
does he place he kiddush cup and challah in front of you also? If you are at the head of the table…..
BTW, my mother is an almanah an to this day when home for shabbos sits in her seat, not the head where my father sat.
as bob grant said ” sick and getting sicker”!!!
A round table is certainly best for the pesach seder, so that no knight should be different from any other knight!
Whether a woman should recline see SA O’CH (472,4)
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