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“I want to be able to think that chazal were great people – and not because my tenth-grade teacher or a Rav said so, but because I myself think so based on his works.”
So what we’d be if for whatever reason you start to learn Gemara and it makes no sense to you or you? Are they suddenly not so great because you don’t like or understand what they are talking about? I really think that the above sentence of yours is very problematic. Chazal don’t need your approval. They don’t need Rav Chaim Kannievskies approval either. Most people will never learn Zohar and shouldn’t. Does that mean that to them or to you it shouldn’t be enough that they know Rav Shimon bar Yochai is great? We don’t learn Gemara to find out how great Abaya and Rava were. That’s just absurd.
Why were the girls not looking at the boys too? I’m not saying this to be funny.
B y maidel, looks like my comment went right over your head.
The girls are not commanded to learn like the boys, and they don’t have the same yetzer hara pulling them away from their gemaras. I wasn’t saying that to be funny either.
A woman has the same obligation as a man to see how deviously her yetzer hara tries to push her away from fulfilling her own tafkid. And to make sure she’s not confusing one yetzer’s work with that of the other.
BY Maidel,
My point was that if you are searching for something that will make Frum Judaisim seem more grounded in reality in the same way science is Gemara is not going to do that. The Halachic (as opposed to aggadic) discussions are a bit complex but you have to accept a whole lot of premises and “laws” in order for them to not be laughable.
Like David Bar Magen said unless you are willing to accept a lot on faith you are not going to find learning Gemara satisfying unless you are the kind of person who would enjoy delving into the details of Tolkien’s middle earth, and accepting answers based on “laws” made up by the authors.
BYM:
I don’t see how learning Gemarah will help you (although I don’t discourage it). Your issue seems to be that your entire life’s learning has been on a 5th grade level, even when you went to high school, seminary and beyond. Learning Gemorah on a 5th grade level will not help you understand “the Judaism stuff”. IMHO, you need some heavy Hashkafa (which unfortunately no one really writes in this day and age. “Popular frum hashkafa” is IMHO mostly shallow). I would suggest the Rishonim and Geonim, their Hashkafic works, and looking at them with a critical eye. Then work out for yourself a blend of what works for you. For example, the Chovos HaLevavos is a wonderful sefer, but I can’t agree with his thoughts on predestination, so I personally reject that.
Learning Abaye and Rava arguing about Yeush, although a wonderful thing, will not answer any of your questions.
Hatzlacha.
WIY,
Of course Chazal need your “approval”. Why should you accept them as great people if you don’t appreciate what they did/wrote or see anything great about it? (I am not saying I believe they weren’t “great” I’m just saying your point about them not needing anyone’s “approval” seems kind of silly…)
As a girl, learning Gemorah wasn’t the a go-to guide for faith and belief. But if you need it it’s there.
If we don’t go out of our way to learn (for the thinkers amongst us) we can easily get stuck in practicing and going through the motions without ever understanding who we are and what we’re doing –pretty sad but true.
Finding clarity is a lifelong endeavor.
Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l told my rav in the most strident terms I’ve ever heard him relate on anything that it was a chiyuv for a community to teach gemara to women. Almost all of The Rov’s talmidim agree that women can learn gemara.
I’ve completed one cycle of Daf Yomi and am now into my second cycle. My wife got so inspired that she started attending shiurim and she completed Berachot, Shabat, and Eruvim. She loved gemara! She has now dropped out of Daf Yomi because she wants to learn more in-depth.
In Manhattan and the Bronx, as well as in many suburban areas, there are now many gemara shiurim that welcome women or are women-only. (If you are anywhere near Riverdale I can list them for you if you’d like.) I wish you the best in your learning!
BYG- What are you looking for exactly? Do you want to know if YOU can learn Gemara? Are you asking why women in general can’t?
These are two separate questions, and should probably be addressed separately.
Then there’s your Hashkafik problem. Sometimes you seem to be leaning towards Gemara as a source for Hashkafa, and sometimes more as a textual manual. What do you want to gain from learning Gemara?
I certainly disagree with Gavrah-At-Work about your education level. We know that there are Hashkafa questions at every level of learning. You have certainly proved yourself well-educated and well-sourced throughout this discussion. The only flaw seems to be your assumption that you have studied everything. You clearly know a lot, but no-one can know everything.
There is also another distinction I wish to make between Gemara for women in general, and what you need. You have set yourself apart from the majority of other women, by your education goals and standards. So by your own admission, you don’t represent most religious women. For what it’s worth, I spent some time learning about all faiths in order to find what to believe in. It took some time, but eventually I did come back to Judiasm as the source, and most logical of the “isms.” You’re not the first woman to be searching for answers.
Lastly, I have one more point I’m hesitant to bring up. I don’t wish to trample on your self-respect or anything like that. There was another discussion in the CR about OTD kids and what schools don’t do and should do. Reading what you say brings a point for that discussion. So I’d like to ask you, if you’re so confused yourself, why are you you teaching? Would you teach science if you didn’t understand it? A teacher needs to be able to help her students understand. What are you doing in the education system?
lakewood- if youre too daft to understand chazal, thats not their problem
Lakewood01
I’m sorry I think it’s actually ludicrous to say that chazal need your approval. Its also arrogant beyond belief. The Gemara is our mesorah. You need to work on the Gemara until you appreciate it but they don’t need your approval. The Gemara discusses niskatnu hadoros so compared to them we are a piece of bacteria. The Gemara says the smallest of the amoraim was on the madreiga to be mechyeh meisim. Such great people certainly don’t need our approval. By the fact that they are in the Gemara that is God’s approval. To think that your approval is necessary is just beyond.
WIY,
Why do you think Chazal were great? (Don’t answer because my rebbeim told me they are… Give a real answer) Honest question.
Lakewood
Because they dedicated their lives to carrying on the oral tradition of the Torah and learned every possible second and we’re tremendous Tzaddik and did great acts of kindness were able to avert evil decrees with their Tefillos lead Klal Yisroel…
And for the record “my Rabbeinu told me they are” is a very valid answer. Klal Yisroel has a mesorah. One needs a Rebbe. Sadly there has been a big breakdown in this area where people want to be independent and are turning their backs on dass Torah and don’t realize that what has kept us going strong all these years is our mesorah which is passed down Rebbe to talmid the connection to the Torah of the previous generation and their guidance.
Bais yakov maidel
Can you please discuss this with Rebbetzin Heller or your personal Rav, before walking down this path. You are taking a turn that you may later regret.
I would recommend to listen to Rav Aharon Lopiansky’s shuirim Da Ma Sheteysav which are available with many others at the Yeshiva Gedolah of Greater Washingotn’s web site. He adds a unique depth to the Hashkafic issues and deals with everything from a scientific perspective. I hear your want for gemara and maybe it is a solution; but as you mentioned you lack the education for gemara from BY whether it is right or wrong, but here is an option to appreciate depth without having to learn a plethora of new skills. Chazal say that Torah has 49/70 approaches, and that is in every aspect of Torah. Perhaps another approach to what you already know may suffice to quench your thirst. I wish you much success in finding a greater fulfillment from Judaism which is synonymous with the Torah.
WIY:
I wouldn’t disregard the path she takes…with every turn we take we discover more of what fits in our life…
BYM:
Veer with caution when the moves are deterring us from our goal…personally learned and went to classes that also spoke to me from a new perspective and that might be what you need.. there are so many of such classes and teachers.
bais yakov maidel,
If contemporary hashkafa books don’t do it for you, then write your own.
BTW, hashkafa means to “look down” (Rashi on Chumash). That is to say that one is above and can therefore intellectualize and judge what they are seeing when they look down. To me hashkafa also means condescension, as people make their philosophies to match their actions and feelings (Ain adam maiseem et atsmo Rasha – B”K 3a – I think). People can then judge others by those philosophies. If I judge with my hashkafa, I always come out good but others maybe not so good. And on it goes from person to person, Rebbe to Rebbe, and group to group.
An example: A while ago, I was in shul and the Rav was teaching a hashkafic idea (I don’t remember). His son, who is in Kollel, clearly disagreed with him. The son thought that the hashkafa was not in line with fruimkeit. Afterwards, the shul Rav showed his son the sefer that he was quoting from, which was from the Rambam. And no, it was not from the Moreh Nevuchim, nor was it anything controversial. But it was not shtark enough for this kollel man.
I don’t see the requirement for hashkafa. I happily do mitsvot because I am supposed to because Hashem said so. Could I have an intellectual or philosophic reasoning that explains the mistvot to me? Yes, but that’s not required, nor should I think that my reason for anything is The reason. It’s just to motivate me. If you need some ideas to get you motivated, either keep looking, or just write your own.
Beis yakov
Does the Chazon Ish need your approval? What about the chofetz Chaim? I’m not even sure what this approval is that you talk about. Does Rav Steinman need your approval? A person becomes a recognized gadol and the people accept him. TThat’s always how it went. Chazal were the greatest people of their time. They knew the most Torah and we’re great in middos at the same time. I’m really not sure what your issue is. Rav Moshe Feinstein doesn’tt need my approval he knows more than I will ever know and he was accepted as the Gadol Hador. If you think he needs your approval then maybe you need a shrink not a Gemara!
To me it sounds like your attitude is “I’m quite brilliant so if this stuff makes sense to me then it’s right and true if not, then it’s not for me.” You are coming from the wrong place. Before you start learning any Torah you must recognize this is Toras Hashem and it is totally Emes. Anything that doesn’t make sense to you is a flaw in you based on how you think or due to your prejudices. Torah is not a subject that you tackle with your brains and decide what’s right and what’s wrong. Its all Toras Emes. You have to park your pride. Its not about you its about what Hashem is trying to teach you and you will never understand it if you are always trying to make it fit your brain and preconceived notions attitudes and what you decide is rational and logical. When you come to learn Torah you should say I know nothing. Hashem teach me. Rebbe teach me. Otherwise it’s like you are trying to fit a square block into a round hole.
MDG: I’ve been saying that exact same thing for years. “Hashkafa” is just an excuse to say “I’m better than you”. (I think I’ve posted that here before.)
WIY: But how do you know they transferred the Mesorah? How do you know they dedicated their lives to Torah? There is definitely something to be said for not being able to properly appreciate something without some firsthand knowledge. She wants to appreciate Chazal but currently has no way to because she can’t relate to them in the slightest. So she wants to find a way to relate to them so she can appreciate them. I don’t see anything problematic in that statement.
Lakewood001
An inkling of Chazal’s greatness is actually written by the Rambam in Shmoneh Prukim L’Harambam.
The Rambam was the Sultans personal physician so one would think that he was pretty knowledgeable in medical matters.
He writes regarding Chazal’s Aggadata that there are three groups of people and the one’s that he calls “fools” are those that say that Chazal only knew the science of their times.
The Rambam writes that anyone who know’s science and is familiar with Chazal’s teachings can see plainly that they knew far more regarding science then anyone else at their time.
Sam2
What do you mean how do I know they transferred the mesorah? Its all written down! It says in the Gemara about the Has made and all that so that’s how I know that.
I’m not sure what you are asking me.
WIY: My point exactly. You know that because you can see it in the Gemara. She doesn’t because she can’t.
Ben Levi: That is a gross misrepresentation of the Rambam’s opinon. He says that it’s Assur to follow Chazal in medicine because they only knew what was known at their time and that following such medicine is actually Assur because it’s Sakanas Nefashos.
WIY
How do you know any of the things you keep repeating are true? How is “because my rebbe told me” a good reason to believe something?
Ben Levi,
Can you provide a single example of Chazal making a scientific statement that was not known to anyone else in their time? The Rambam was very well versed in 13th century “medicine”. Do you believe he was ahead of his time? If yes can you bring some examples of where?
“Before you start learning any Torah you must recognize this is Toras Hashem and it is totally Emes. Anything that doesn’t make sense to you is a flaw in you based on how you think or due to your prejudices. Torah is not a subject that you tackle with your brains and decide what’s right and what’s wrong. Its all Toras Emes. You have to park your pride. Its not about you its about what Hashem is trying to teach you and you will never understand it if you are always trying to make it fit your brain and preconceived notions attitudes and what you decide is rational and logical. When you come to learn Torah you should say I know nothing. Hashem teach me. Rebbe teach me. Otherwise it’s like you are trying to fit a square block into a round hole.”
WIY:
This is totally not about prejudice and it’s not about pride (tee hee). You are saying something unbelievable here. You are saying that when a person sits down to learn Torah, he or she needs to TURN OFF THE BRAIN. If you come in saying I know nothing and anything that is confusing to me is due to a personal flaw, you will not learn anything ever. Torah is all about asking questions, about using the logic and reasoning and intellect that Hashem gave us for this very purpose, about struggling, about push and pull. I have never personally witnessed this but I hear from my brother and husband that there are some male chavrusas who mamash YELL at each other while they are learning (and the poskim in the Gemara insult each other constantly l’sheim shamayim). You cannot go in saying I know nothing, I am nothing and you cannot suppress your intellect while you are learning. This applies to Gemara, halacha, and anything else you might be learning. There are so many fascinating teshuvos out there and we only have the benefit of learning them because some people thought to ask shailos. Likewise kashyas, likewise the hypothetical situations mentioned in the Gemara that can border on the absurd in terms of possibility. Those situations only came up because somebody decided to think about “but wait, what if…?” You don’t come up with “what if” if all you are doing is accepting learning into your brain like a sponge. You have to turn it around and ponder it and think about it and DO SOMETHING WITH IT. The reason there are different shittas out there is that different rabbonim have different brains and think differently. I cannot imagine that you would tell me that only rabbonim are allowed to use their brains while learning. Don’t you realize that every Rav was once a young bachur, and every Rebbetzin a young girl?
Lakewood
Because we have an unbroken chain passed down from Rebbi to student and Parents to child.
How do you know you are Jewish?
Jewishfem
My point is don’t look at the material with ideas and expectations of who you expect that page to say. First learn it through throughly and see what the page ACTUALY says. Then once you see why the page says you start asking questions. Do you know that the way the chasm sofer and others (even when they knew it all) learned is that they pretended they were looking at it for the first time. A lot of mistakes and misconceptions occur because we think we know something and therefore we expect the page to say something and then when the page doesn’t say what we expect we get confused. The Daf Gemara is correct now you have to figure out why it says things that don’t fit according to what you expected.
Lakewood01
Please read. I know it is long but it’s worthwhile. Very yesodosdik.
I always thought the a major part of doubts in Judaism is ignorance…but it they can be resolved for each person at their own pace.
I wouldn’t knock anyone’s quest or questions there all valid and G-d wants us to seek the truth.
There happens to be a beauty of having different segments of Judaism.
WIY:
Okay, fine, so where did bais yaakov maidel say anything whatsoever to indicate that she did not intend to learn Gemara in the way you describe?
She wants to learn Gemara for inspiration and to see how great the chazal were. There were and she seems like she is very strong minded and opinionated and thinks she knows it all. (read all her comments) That’s nnot the way you approach a Gemara. You come to a Gemara with all that you won’t get anywhere. The approach is that you want to know Raton Hashem and chachmas Hashem. If your desire is strong enough you will end up being inspired.
She “thinks she knows it all”?? Are you joking?? She sounds like she is one of the most educated women to ever come out of the Bais Yaakov system and she cannot stop talking about how she knows NOTHING!! How the reason she wants to learn Gemara is that nothing she ever learned truly taught her anything!!
Ok I’m done with this topic. If she wants help she can call a Rabbi or Rebbetzin for guidance. I see no more purpose discussing this.
Actually, if you go back and read the first post, you will see that she didn’t start this topic because she “wants help” (although plenty of people offered plenty of unsolicited advice). She started this topic to share her thoughts with those who may not independently understand the motivation for women to learn Gemara.
BYM:
again-
i would like to know where the mekor is that a father may not teach his daughter gemara.
it seems like you missed my last post.
thank you.
Unique: Gemara Sotah 21a (around there); Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 1:13, Shulchan Aruch YD 246 (I think).
thank you sam2 and BYM
Sam2
Actually I provided you with a virtually exact quote of the Rambam if you have access to Shmoneh Prukim you can find it yourself.
– – – bais yakov maidel
I would switch with you if I could (just the learning Gemara part).
I mostly don’t like learning Gemara, but my belief in Judaism is solid and comes from other places. Sounds like your teachers did not do the best job on some parts of your education. I know my teachers didn’t fill our heads with, Men are better than Women, garbage. Most explained that every one has a role and each person/ gender has strengths. (Sort of related point – That is why people need to get married. To strengthen each person’s weaknesses)
Regarding the part which you mention “Will the pre-screen me and say that “by virtue of the fact that I am female, I don’t have the brain capacity to really understand gemara… it’s just the way Hashem made things…”?”
I have heard that in general women are better at broad brain capacity (ex: women are very good at multi tasking). Men in general are more suited to single minded tasks (ex: my Mom used to yell at me to do chores but many time I could not hear because I was so focused on a book. I have witnessed similar events with other males).
You seem like you are intelligent and you may be an exception, because most women don’t vocalize this if they feel this way. I would suggest talk to a rabbi that knows you and you are comfortable with. Also you can lean Tanach and Halacha in depth, Rashi was such a great writer that people of all ages and skill levels can learn from him. Try Rambam’s guide to the perplexed (forgot what it is called in hebrew Mo’reh something).
On a completely unrelated note:
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lakewood001.
Actually as for Chazal here’s one example.
The Gemara in Rosh Hashona (Chuf Hey) relates that Rabban Gamliel had a tradition regarding the time between one new moon to another, the Gemara details this time difference.
NASA has come up with a computerized model to figure out the time difference.
Guess what?
It’s virtually the same.
For further info check out Dictionary of Astronomy from Oxford Press 1997.
As for the Rambam.
Actually Rabbi Jonathan Rietti has a complete lecture detailing things the Rambam learnt from the Torah that were not known in his time.
As I recall one of them was that the Rambam states the human balance rests in the ear and derives this from the similarities in the Hebrew word for ear and scales.
We now know the Rambam was right.
I should also mention that I mostly read just the first post.
For mods only please delete this part of post
I will stop with the crude attempts of art
perhaps a preview button would help.
Thanks for all the good work
Shana tova
Just to add.
That if Gedolei HaDor in our generation are capable of displaying an ability to somehow know things others don’t I would assume that Chazal had the same capability.
And while I personally am a “Kalte Litvak” I can’t really deny things when they happen state.
I was admitted to a Major Hospital and had several top doctors on my case and they were “pessimistic’ of my chance s for a compete recovery.
Gedolei Yisroel in EY were approached and they stated I would recover completely, one of them also stated explicitly that the Doctors would be unable to figure out the cause.
I recovered completely , and in fact was the featured exhibit at a department wide Medical Conference.
And towards the end of my hospital stay one of the unobservant Doctors admitted that in my case it seems the “rabbis were right”. And actually during a follow up visit some time later this specialist stated there are some cases which are pretty humbling.
And for the record they could not figure out the underlying etiology.
Ben Levi,
The calculation made by Rabban Gamliel had already been made by Hipparchus who died in 120 BCE and was known to the Babylonians from around 300 BCE. Rabban Gamliel lived well after both.
Actually Rabban Gamliel lived in 30, sorry.
Which is way before not way after.
And if you would bother looking at the Gemorah you would see that it’s pretty hard to state that the calculations were known since B”D was going to accept the Eidim and declare RC and RG did not allow based on his Mesorah.
The Gemorah further indicates that RG’s ruling needed public enforcement by Rabban Gamliel giving a Hesped on what would have been Rosh Chodesh, which pretty much indicates the calculations were not a “know entity”.
You really really should try learning things inside first and not rely that in turn rely on excerpts.
But then again I really don’t know why you would believe that there were any calculations made or known to the Gentiles at the time since all our literature you contend could have been made up or falsified.
Does’nt it go both ways?
Bym
I’m not afraid but you do have a point that most people will give up if they see that you just have this idea in your head and anything they say isn’t going to help. I just don’t understand your reluctance in speaking to a Rabbi or Rebbetzin (in our camp) unless of course it’s because they will give you an answer you don’t want to hear. So you are strong minded girl an with an independent streak who can’t take a no? Do I have it right?
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