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The USA is not my birthplace. You should listen to my accent. I am an
emigrant from Hungary who graduated from Brooklyn College with a BS degree and went to NYU Courant Institute in Mathematics.AviT, your answer is bang on and well-articulated. Best answer thus far imho.
I disagree, though, that nobody understood the question. Some didn’t early on, but the author of the OP took responsiblity for the integrity of the thread and cleared it up.
In any case, your answer bears strict attention because it pulls together many concepts regarding our very nature and purpose. Kol hakavod!
P.s. thank you for using your first name and family name initial. I regret not choosing my full name in my username, which is Stuart Wachsberg. I don’t get the cowardice of this entire tzibur hiding behind pseudonyms.
Laskern i was not referring to you. You were the counter example. I was referring to the chareidi community in general.
And you are right that it was not complimentary. It was intended as constructive criticism of the yeshivish community.
Sorry that I was unclear. My intent was to use you as a positive example. I took your well-written answer as an opportunity to reinforce good conduct. I guess I didn’t do it very well.
StuartW , Thank you for clearing that up. I learned Torah in yiddish so my english might not be the most articulate. We try to avoid talking about gilgulim as the gemora avoids it.
Yes avit that was great. I will add that I learned that bechira chofshis amounts to two choices Hashem provided us (we can’t create further options):
1) to ascend
2) to descend temporarily to allow for greater ascent later on.This applies both on an individual and world scale. Hashem’s plan is that the world/people will end up as a place / vessels permeated with G-dliness. The question is only which path of the two we take.
Laskern, the Gemara also does not discuss electricity. Should we be like the Amish? Both Ramban and the Arizal discuss gilgulim so the subject is definitely normative Judaism.
Chabadshlucha, your characterization of ascent and descent is clearly biased toward ascent (given that you specify descents are temporary with an eye toward ascent).
I plead ignorance on this; I am merely asking, not suggesting. Are you saying that everyone reaches the finish line, that every Jewish soul ultimately redeems itself? How about gentiles, who have souls and can gain access to Olam Haba?Square Root of 2, why do you say that the pint is not to be embarrassed? What about those being punished? The point is that the reward should be a deserved reward and not a Matnas Chinam, which is not well received due to the Nahama Dichisufa concept.
As for my point of Bechira, you have to truly envision such a universe before tossing the explanation. If the fact is that there is no concept of a Cheit (whether preordained or selective universe) then there is no active Bechira. (Yes, I know your point of view, which is why I worded it that way.)
Additionally, there is the point that this world is meant to remain murky and not final. By rooting out the evil Hashem would effectively be fixing the world, not us. I mentioned this in the above post as well.
Avi K, what is wrong with being היימיש?
Will reply after shabbos iyh
So, why was I created?
The Wolf
Interesting question, although I think it is based on two false assumptions.
Premise A) Hashem created the world in order to bestow ultimate goodness to those that adhere to the correct path.
Premise B) Whatever the correct answer to the question of free will, ultimately Hashem still foresees the future.
Thus being that He wants to only bestow good, (A), and he ‘knows’ that this person would under his own free will not be a recipient of it, on the contrary, he will be punished, (B). Why did he create them?On the face of it, premise A needs clarification on multiple levels of analysts. The phrase תכלית הטוב להטיב, is given as a cause for the creation of the world, i.e. the ultimate ‘goal’ of a supremely good being is to bestow goodness onto others, thus He must create the world for that end. However it doesn’t explain why we need to ‘work’ for this good, why couldn’t Hashem just give us the ultimate reward without the hardships need to acquire it? That is why we say נהמא דכסופא, i.e. by definition a complete reward is only one that we worked for and deserve it. This in a nutshell is the rationale behind the Ramchals opening remarks.
However, on the face of it, if we think into this it would seem that the reasoning is flawed. First of all, why do we need to say that Hashem is the ‘ultimate good’? Presumably because if he wasn’t, then it would take away from his Omnipotence (שלימות). But doesn’t saying that since he IS the ultimate good, and that means bestowing onto others ‘goodness’, that in itself takes away for His שלימות? Think about this way, if he would NOT have created the world, He would not have unto whom to bestow ‘goodness’ thus He would be missing in שלימות, as תכלית הטוב להטיב, that would then mean that His שלימות is DEPENDENT on others, c”v.
Furthermore, this would imply that insofar that the world was not in existence, (i.e before בריאת העולם), and there was no one to ‘favor’ then he was at least at that time, missing in שלימות c”v.
Another point would be that we know that Hashem is פשוט בתכלית הפשיטות, how can we attribute to him middos and wants? Only humans are capable of such things because we can change, not Hashem.
If this is incorrect, and his שלימות is not dependent on actual bestowal of ‘goodness’, (thus His שלימות is NOT dependent on others), then why did He need to create the world at all? (Which was the reason of stating תכלית הטוב in the first place).
Thus we can safely assume that we are lacking in understanding what תכלית הטובל להטיב means.As to the premise B). The general understanding is correct. The question of free will is not asked as such: since we have free will, how can Hashem know the future, rather it is always (to my knowledge) phrased like this: since Hashem knows all that is going to happen how can WE have free will. In other words the question is on OUR free will, not on HASHEMS’ divine knowledge.
The difference of phrasing imply that whatever the answer, what is constant is Hashems knowledge of the future, whereas if it would have been phrased the first way, that would imply that Hashems divine knowledge might not be constant. Obviously the reason for stating it the second way is because Hashem must know the future for if not it would be taking away from his שלימות, (and another reason which is tied into this one).Now we can answer the OP question. The concept of תכלית הטוב cannot mean in regards to the initial reason of creation, as explained above, rather it refers to the moment in time when the attribute (Sefirah) of Chesed was created. Then we can say that whatever is created through the Sefira of Chesed (which in this case is the world in general) was created in such a way as to be able to give full and complete Chesed to its inhabitants. However we are not referring about Hashem proper c”v, since He Himself does not have any attributes whatsoever.
But, in regards to free will, that is not talking about the level of the sefirah of Chesed, rather of a higher dimension, one without time. Thus the question why did he create wicked people knowing full well that He would not be able to bestow goodness to them, is incorrect, since the ‘knowing’ and the ‘wanting to bestow’ are two different dimensions.The concept of Bechira itself is not as clear as it seems.
See Rashi on this week’s parsha concerning Lot’s daughters performing incest.
A jug of wine was already miraculously prepared in the cave for them, so that they could get their father drunk.
Yehudah’s encounter with Tamar has a similar issue.
I don’t recall the meforash at this moment, but he says that Yehudah was basically” pushed” into the relationship from Above.Stuart, Rabbi Avram Belinski a.k.a. Gene Wilder fainted.
HaLeVi, what do you mean by “active”? Free choice is a fundamental principle of Judaism.
1.41421356237309504880168872420969807856967187537694807317667973799…, some say that Hashem could know but does not look. I think that it is also possible that it is a matter of probability. Moreover, according to Rav Dessler (Kuntras Nekudat haBechira) tzaddik and rasha are relative to the individuals givens. For example, a person who was born into an assimilated family will have an easier judgement than someone born into a yeshiva family. This is in line with Rambam’s statement (Hilchot teshuva 3:2) that only Hashem knows the magnitude of mitzvot and aveirot even though in the first chapter he seems to say that the magnitude of aveirot is based on the punishment.
“Are you saying that everyone reaches the finish line, that every Jewish soul ultimately redeems itself?”
Yes. We have been promised Kol Yisrael yesh lahem chelek lolam haba. As for individual reincarnations and thus bodies, reason why we have incarnations is because each soul needs to fulfill all 613 commandments (except for the kings mitzvos which he performs on behalf of the nation) and thereby refine its portion in the world (divided among all Jewish souls) its soul powers and body parts (which also amount to 613.)
When this isn’t finished, the soul reincarnates into another body to continue the process. The refined aspects of the soul remain with the body that it refined them in, and that body is reincarnated with that part of the soul.
Don’t worry about remaining with an incomplete soul as all Jews are in truth one large soul (that Adam and Yaakov possessed) and any part contains all the rest ( as reflected in the body- which is a proper vessel to the soul- where every cell contains the entire dna – my note).
(See shaarei Geula yemos hamoshiach, page Reish ches tzaddik, for additional information (also fns 15 and 16) the relevant sources in shaar gagilgulim, the Zohar etc.)
” How about gentiles, who have souls and can gain access to Olam Haba?”
Gentiles and Jews have different roles, different levels of responsibility and accountability, and correspondingly, different privileges as well.
Jews are accountable to make the world a G-dly place. We have to live up to higher standards to do that and are held accountable if we don’t. Gentiles are accountable to make the world a functional and moral society (which is a necessary prerequisite for the Jews role.)
As fit for their role, Jews were granted an immortal and G-dly soul which affects their continuum as a nation, and as
individuals. Gentiles have a soul formed in the “image of G-d” but not G-dly or immortal to the same extent as the Jewish soul.We see this physically and spiritually, already now. Physically, there are many ancient nations which are long gone, whereas the Jews, against all odds, are still around and always will be.
Spiritually, since non Jews were granted the element of free choice with regards to their 7 commands, they can earn olam haba, spiritual afterlife, as well, but not to the same extent as Jews.
With regards to the finish line as you put it, in moshiachs times, there will be nations around, and those nations will serve Hashem, as foretold in many nevuos, amongst them, “Then I will turn over to the nations a refined language to all call out in the Name of Hashem…” “And the nations will flock to it (the Holy Temple.)”
However, afaik, individual resurrection and immortality only applies to the Jews as a nation, and as individuals.
Ziongate “On top of that, until bar mitzvah the child has a yetzer harah but not yetzer tov. Why?”
Because otherwise there would be no struggle… Which would defeat the purpose of our creation. The point of our being, ever since chet etz hadaas when good and bad were mixed together, is to separate the good from the bad by our everyday choices. Every time we struggle but reject the bad we expect are grappling with, it makes the world a more G-dly place.
Every adult knows that bad choices (often) result in instant gratification and long term suffering. Good choices may require sacrifice in the short term but bring long term happiness and satisfaction. For every mature person then, it should be a no brainer what to choose, which would mean we don’t have a choice as there is only one credible choice.
Why do we struggle then and resultantly elevate the world? Because in our youth, for the first 12-13 years, we were accustomed to living by instant gratification and desiring that which looks good on the surface. When we get introduced to a new deeper perspective as a bar / bas mitzvah, we struggle to turn that way of living around.But the purpose is the struggle (for most people. Tzaddikim are a different category.) and most people were created for the sole purpose of struggling with the bad and overcoming it on many different levels. This avoda itself gives Hashem much much nachas (see my earlier post regarding Yaakov and esav etc)
The world was created for our benefit and not Hashem’s. The midrash in Tehilim on the pasuk עולם חסד יבנה the world was created with favor, compares this to a king who has storerooms of all kind of goods. He says, what should I do with this? I will distribute and share this with my servants and the only thing I ask them is that they should show appreciation for it. See the Binah Leitim for more detail. Therefore, our purpose is also to share our wealth and knowledge with others to emulate Him.
Laskern, Rav Ashlag says in Torat Eser haSefirot that it was created because Hashem wanted to give. Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim that nothing was created for us per se. It was all created for Hashem.
Avi K, The problem is how do you explain that Hashem did not become greater by creating the world if He created it for Himself.
Laskern, He did not create to become greater but to fulfill a desire to give.
It says אם למדת תורה הרבה אל תחזיק טובה לעצמך if you learned much Torah don’t praise yourself כי לכך נוצרת for that is why you were created. Says the Binah Leitim, don’t keep the best for yourself because that is why you were created to pass it on. I said כל הלומד תורה שלא לשמה one who learns to Torah for his own benefit, not passing it on, מוטב לו שלא נברא it would have been better if he was not born, because he is not keeping the purpose of creation. כל שרוח הבריות נוחין ממנו if people get a benefit from him because he is passing on Torah, רוח המקום נוחה הימנו Hashem gets joy from him, because he follows the purpose of the creation of the world.
Avi K, I was questioning the Rambam in Morei Nevuchim that you were
quoting.laskern, AviK, You both seem to misunderstand what the Rambam means. C”v to say Hashem created anything for himself. The Torah says אני ה’ לא שניתי.
ובגלל הדבר הזה הדעת האמיתי אצלי לפי האמונות התוריות והנאות לדעות העיוניות הוא שלא יאמן בנמצאות כולם שהם מפני מציאות האדם אבל יהיו גם כן שאר הנמצאות כולם מכוונות לעצמם לא מפני דבר אחר. ותבטל גם כן שאלת התכלית בכל מיני הנמצאות ואפילו לפי דעתנו בחידוש העולם. שאנחנו נאמר כל חלקי העולם המציאם ברצונו – ומהם מכונים לעצמם ומהם מפני דבר אחר האחר ההוא מכון לעצמו. וכמו שרצה שיהיה מין האדם נמצא כן רצה שיהיו השמים וכוכביהם נמצאים וכן רצה שיהיו המלאכים נמצאים – וכל נמצא אמנם כון בו עצם הנמצא ההוא ומה שאי אפשר מציאותו אלא אחר הקדמות דבר המציא הדבר ההוא תחילה כהקדים ההרגשה לשכל. וכבר נאמר זה הדעת גם כן בספרי הנבואה – אמר “כל פעל יי למענהו” אפשר שיהיה זה הכינוי שב אל הפעול; ואם יהיה שב אל הפועל יהיה פרושו למען עצמו ית’ – רצונו לומר רצונו שהוא עצמו כמו שהתבאר בזה המאמר. וכבר בארנו שעצמו ית’ יקרא גם כן ‘כבודו’ באמרו “הראני נא את כבודך” – הנה יהיה גם כן אמרו ‘כל פעל יי למענהו’ כאמרו “כל הנקרא בשמי ולכבודי בראתיו יצרתיו אף עשיתיו” – יאמר כל מה שיוחס לי פעולתו אמנם עשיתיו למען רצוני לא זולת זה; ואמרו ‘יצרתיו אף עשיתיו’ הוא מה שבארתי לך שיש נמצאות אי אפשר מציאותם אלא אחר מציאות דבר אחר – אמר אני יצרתי את הדבר ההוא הראשון אשר אי אפשר מבלתי הקדימו כחומר על דרך משל לכל בעל חומר; אחר עשיתי בדבר ההוא הקודם או אחריו מה שהיתה כונתי להמציא. ואין שם אלא רצון לבד:
Guide 3:13 Ibn Tibbon translation
Avi K, Why can’t the will of Hashem be to share with others because He enjoys giving?
Laskern, that is what I wrote.
Avi K: Exactly my point. Did you learn the parts preceding what you quoted? Hashem does not “want” anything, does not ‘need’ anything. Furthermore, Hashem has no ‘will’ which we can speak of. All we can do (at least according to Rambam), is say what Hashem is NOT. (See part 1:50 and further, see also Kuzari 1:4 what the philosophers say).
laskern: Which is why one can’t say ‘because he enjoys giving’. Humans enjoy things, not Hashem. Just pause for a moment and think: enjoyment is an inverse relationship, i.e. if one gets pleasure from one thing, than he can also get displeasure. Saying such a thing on Hashem is tantamount of saying Hashem has ‘moods’. Remember, Hashem is NOT a person.
(The sources that I gave are an approximation of where it should be, since I was writing this from memory)TheFakeMaven, Have you ever heard the expression כדי להסביר את האוזן we don’t know what applies to Hashem. We use the expression כביכול but we speak according to our understanding as the hand, eyes and ears of Hashem. This is called צמצום minimizing Him for our understanding. We use love and hate and therefore we can say He enjoys giving. See the Rambam in his explanation.
TheFakeMaven, Have you ever heard the expression כדי להסביר את האוזן we don’t know what applies to Hashem. We use the expression כביכול but we speak according to our understanding as the hand, eyes and ears of Hashem. This is called צמצום minimizing Him for our understanding. We use love and hate and therefore we can say He enjoys giving. See the Rambam in his explanation.
It’s kind of circular. When he say Hashem “enjoys giving” we really mean he bestows kindness upon us. So, it’s not really adding anything to say that the reason He bestows kindness upon us is because He enjoys giving.
Look at the Rambam Hilchas Yesodei Hatorah 1:9 as I explained above.
TheFakeMaven, Does you name reflect your being? What do you do with the pasuk Devorim 28:63 והי’ כאשר שש ה’ אלקיך להטיב אתכם And it will be that the way Hashem rejoyces to do good for you.
laskern: Ignoring you silly personal remark, did you ever pause for a moment to reflect why it say here (and in most places) ה’ and אלוקיך?
Laskern: There is a distinction between saying that לשבר את האזן is to help us speak about Hashem proper, as you and AviK are doing, as opposed to what I am saying, which is, that in regards to Hashem proper we cannot speak of at all, there are no words to describe Him at all, [see Guide 1:58], rather anything we say is as apophatic theology, (see Guide ibid).
Speaking in any positive way of Hashems ‘wants’ ‘likes’ ‘desires’ etc, is simply wrong and touches upon the issue of הגשמה. This is why the Mekubulim took great pains to say that they are referring to the Sefiros NOT Hashem proper (see any Kabalistic sefer [usually by way of introduction] written by the Rishonim, for instance, Mareches Elokim, Avodos Elokim, etc,).
As such, (as daas Yachid rightfully points out) according to your understanding, saying Hahsem bestows goodness because he likes too, is a tautology, it adds nothing to our understanding of the WHY Hashem bestows. It is a description of a description, Hashem gives good because he gives good, since even you agree that Hashem doesn’t really ‘want’ anything.
[As an aside, this is not what צמצום means. צמצום is a concept first revealed to us by the Ariza”l, whereas לשבר את האוזן is concept that has already been in use since the times of the Geonim].TheFakeMaven, I don’t think you have any proof from there, ה’ refers to the good and אלוקיך for the bad that follows the beginning of the pasuk.
laskern: How about:
דברים כג:ו, ולא אבה ה’ אלקיך לשמוע אל בלעם וגו’
ואהבת את ה’ אלקיך וגו”
דברים ח’ ז’: את ה’ אלקיך מביאך אל ארץ טובה וגו’.
I can give many many more examples if you want. [Can you also address the other points?]Fake Maven, you are indeed. Rambam says that Hashem’s “middot” are actually expressions of His will. What we cannot know is what He is.
Laskern & FM, להסביר את האוזן means that you are explaining the ear.
לשבר את האוזן is no longer used as it means to smash it (although the Academy of the Hebrew Language points out that it is meant figuratively – to break the barrier to the intellect). The expression is
לסבר את האוזן. That is to say, to make the statement appear reasonable (סביר),It means that the mercy and the judgement agree to the action.
Laskern: It means that the mercy and the judgement agree to the action.
So tell are these two attributes, A) part of Hashem, or B) outside of Him?
If A) then you are saying there are ‘parts to Hashem, mercy and judgement, if B) then you are saying that Hashem does not reward or punish himself.AviK: Before you try to sound knowledgeable, make sure you are. לשבר את האוזן is the correct way of saying it as is prevalent in all the Rishonim. Furthermore, it is spelled with a sin not a shin, and is tantamount to saying לסבור.
What you both are missing is that Hashem is תכלית הפשיטות, what that means is that He has no will. If you would take the time to actually learn the Morah in full, not in snippets, you will see that the Rambam actually says the exact opposite. There is no concept of “Middot” with Hashem. אינו יודע במדה שחוץ ממנו. Middos are an extension of a person not the person itself, Hashem has no extensions, and therefore, when we say that we cannot know Hashem, that includes whatever Middos you want to attribute to him.
As the Navi says: כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם therefore there are no adjectives we can use even for HIs so called MIddos.Avi k
What in the world does “לשבר את האוזן is no longer used” mean?!! In the frum world, where the words of the rishonim and acharonim are learnt, its a common term. Even a little kid knows it from learning chumash rashi, (look in rashi on the pasuk וברוח אפך נארמו מים). Who gives two hoots to what the “academy” says. Your comment stinks of ignorance.
Besides the ibin ezra explains the term לשבר את האוזן, its with a si”n not a shin, meaning לסבר, and not “to breake” as anyone who knows a little tana”ch knows, that many words could have either a samach or a sin, for instance: חרס חרש, ang could mean the same thing.TheFakeMaven, Hashem is all just. There are two characteristics mercy and judgement. They are represented by malochim, defenders סנגור and קטגור accusers. Hashem according to His knowledge and understanding follows one of them. The best is when both groups agree as no choice needs to be made.
laskern: So you are saying that Hashem is משפט, and decides what is ‘correct’ after hearing the argument of דין ורחמים?
Is Mishpat the essence of Hashem, or is it a characteristic of Him? (By essence I mean, for instance the essence of a Human is that it has a soul, So is Hashems’ essence Mishpat, or is it just instantiated in Him?)We say on Yom Kippur הס קטגור וקח סנגור quite the accuser and take the defender.
I will illustrate: The Ohr Hachaim Hakodash in Parshas Beshalach on מה תצעק אלי דבר אל בני ישראל ויסעו why scream to, me talk to the jews and tell them to move, asks why does tefila not help? He answers that there is a time when din, judgement rules, so we need to create an action to make mercy rule. When they showed their sacrifice by throwing themselves into the water, they converted din to rachamim.
I would say the essence which dictates to either follow mercy or din as it says חסד ואמת יקדמו פניך mercy and truth come infront of you.
laskern: I don’t think I would be remiss in saying, as you seem to have been saying through this whole thread, that Hashem is the paradigm of ultimate goodness. Furthermore, as your last post would imply, I surmise that you would say that this too is Hashems essence, His essence is ultimate goodness.
Do you agree to the above statements?yes, the Baal Haikerim says that the goodness of Hashem brings us to love him even though you can only love someone who is like you because you want to emulate someone who does good and you will follow him in his deeds.
So, according to your reasoning, Hashems essence comprises of at the minimum A) Mishpat, B) Goodness. Thus you have successfully made a case that there is a plurality in Hashem c”v; i.e. his essence is comprised of at least two parts. How is this in line with what we know that Hashem must be פשוט בתכלית הפשיטות?
[someones essence is what he is בעצם]I don’t think that these are two things. The goodness brings to the right judgement either by mercy or truth whichever is good for the individual.
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