- This topic has 21 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Parshas Toldos: Rav Zalman Sorotzkin – The Hands Of Yaakov & The Hands Of Eisav
Yitzchok said to a disguised Yaakov (Toldos 27:22), “HaKol Kol Yaakov V’HaYadayim Yidei Eisav; The voice is sweet like Yaakov, but the hands are rough like Eisav.” Chazal tell us that this teaches us that if the voice of Yaakov is strong in Torah, Eisav will not be able to lay his bloody hands on us. However, in the absence of the voice of Torah, Eisav will have free reign to destroy us.
Rav Zalman Sorortzkin in Oznayim LaTorah asks that since Hashem punishes Mida K’Neged Mida, how can an aveira committed by our voice be punished with the hands of Eisav? Eisav’s voice should have power to inflict punishment upon us, but not his hands.
He answers that the key to Torah learning is financial support of Torah. Im Ein Kemach Ein Torah, without support, the voice of Torah will become silent, as those learning will slowly leave the Bais Medrash to earn a living. If the voice of Torah is heard, then the hands of Yaakov are obviously very active in supporting Torah. In this Zchus, Eisav’s hands will be neutralized. But when the voice of Torah in not heard, then apparently the hands of Yaakov are folded and are not giving very generously to Torah. In that case, the hand of Eisav will be active in making us suffer.
I am ALL in favor of supporting TORAH! I am not in favor, however, of supporting elitist yeshivas who kick children out into the streets with no place to go rather than find them other options or work with them. Of Yeshivas that have ridiculous rules that can’t be bent for the betterment of the students. Who are holier than thou and don’t practice what they preach! Who label kids garbage rather than treasures, and have the chutzpah to say that one child is worth more than another!
aries2756:
You’re going to have to define exactly what constitutes kicking somebody out for no reason. After all, if somebody is not living up to the standard of a yeshiva, and is therefore negatively affecting the yeshiva’s other students, can you blame them for kicking him out? If anything, they should kick him out to protect the other boys.
“the chutzpah to say that one child is worth more than another!”
Whoa. I don’t think kicking somebody out is necessarily saying that “to say that one child is worth more than another”. It could simply be that the boy simply doesn’t fit into this yeshiva, or is having a negative effect on other bochrim.
There are plenty of perfect legitimate reasons to kick somebody out, and often it must be done to protect the rest of the school. After all, what shape would our chinuch system be in if they could never say no? Would you be happy if your child’s school refused to kick out people who were negatively affecting your child simply because they do not believe in kicking people out?
Mw13, how about ridiculous rules? Especilly, when it comes to the girls schools.
mw13, what shape is our chinuch system in now? I ask you? Schools are closing left and right! They have outsmarted themselves. Thousands of kids are OTD, they wanted to make an example of kids to teach other kids not to follow suit? So how many kids needed to be made the example. It looks like the example became the rule! So how well did that work out? Did it stop anyone from committing the same offense or did it become a selection process?
What should they have done? First they should have looked closer for the signs of trouble and dealt with it. Yes, they should have cared more for the students and worked more closely with them so they would not have been in the terrible matzav they were in. And if they broke the rules they should have worked more closely with them to find out why instead of labeling them “bad” or “osvarf” and throwing them out. THEY should have recognized children in pain and help them heal. THEY should have looked beneath the surface and listened to understand. ALL THEY were interested in was THEIR rule was broken and THEY had to get rid of the culprit.
GEE, what does that say about their own when THEY break a rule? How many of them have been caught cheating the government and worse? Shouldn’t THEY be thrown out never to be allowed back again? Think about it, shouldn’t THAT be a rule? After all they can be influencing others, at least the thousands of kids in their school and their parents.
WIY, you are right. But the tayna is on the hanhola — why introduce ridiculous rules? They need to have seychel.
WIY, people break rules all the time and depending on the rule or the severity of the offense get off with a warning or a stern lecture etc. NO, they don’t get fired right away. Please keep that in mind.
“mw13, what shape is our chinuch system in now? I ask you? Schools are closing left and right!”
Yes, it’s called a recession.
“Thousands of kids are OTD, they wanted to make an example of kids to teach other kids not to follow suit?”
This has nothing do with making an example out of anybody, and everything to do with curtailing negative influences.
Again, you seem to be expecting, if not demanding, an incredible amount from the school system. Remember, the teachers/principals are often overworked, underpaid, and only human. You may be expecting too much from them. Much of what you have said here is far, far easier said than done.
Mw13, I am a firm believer in if there’s a will there’s a way. And I will not expect or accept any less from our Yeshivas then they demand and expect from their students. They have raised the bar to a level of perfection where the children are concerned. As far as I’m concerned that means that the bar is raised for them as well.
mdd – Of course. Sometimes the way a child turns out is very much the schools fault. But in the vast majority of cases, I don’t think it is.
aries2756: Aha. So you plan to combat unrealistic expectations with even more unrealistic expectations.
The only thing I can think of to that is a great quote I once read from Lemony Snicket (the author, not the CR member) “If you fight fire with fire, the whole world will burn down!”
Perhaps instead, you should send your children to a more reasonable school… and in turn, have more reasonable expectations of “the system”.
Why we must support Torah financially to the best of our ability?
Don’t get it.
It should be:
Why we must LEARN Torah financially to the best of our ability
mw, B”H I have made it through the system and I have healed from my bumps and bruises. It is now my children’s turn to deal with it. But I have already paid my dues in spades and I prefer that my grandchildren’s yeshivas stop sending me pleas for money. I am not interested. As I said, I have already paid my dues and my kids pay enough in tuition!
No one listened to my pleas when I had a complaint about a teacher or a Rebbe, thank you very much. And when I had to advocate for other children these past couple of years I have realized that the yeshiva system didn’t get better it only got worse. So again, I don’t know why you and I have gotten into a head to head battle on this but obviously your experience and mine have been very different. So I would appreciate it if you would stop your rhetoric because I have no intention of continuing this disagreement with you. Nor do I wish to go one up with you. We will just have to agree to disagree. Because I have every right to expect no less from the Yeshiva system than they expect from their students, and to expect less or to make excuses for them is ridiculous. Excuses are for sixth graders.
WIY, you go to work to earn money, honestly. As long as the rules are legal, you don’t have to agree with them. OTOH, when we choose to send our children to a school, we are entering into a partnership in being mechanech our children. It is clear that schools will often have stricter rules than the house does. Many BYs will limit the makeup girls are allowed to wear in school, not necessarily because they feel there’s something wrong with a 17 year old girl wearing even a subtle color of nail polish, but because it is too distracting and disturbing to force the girls to show their hands everyday, or otherwise start policing.
Without going into particular feelings of the situation that seems to be a springboard for this discussion, I just wanted to point out that one can’t so quickly extrapolate from the work place to school, or vice versa.
WIY, not ignoring you but I only want to discuss this in theory, not give my opinion on the case I assume you’re referring to, which is tangential to the original thrust of thread, yes?
Behold the support of Torah thread drifts into the Dose of Reality thread. Must be our work over there was not completed.
WIY, it is not so simple. Sometimes you start out on the same page and the same footing as the school, or there are only two schools in your neighborhood to choose from and this is the best fit for your child and family. Then out of nowhere, the rules start to shift and the school starts to compete with the school one town over or in the next city and the rules become more and more stringent. YES WIY, this happens all the time.
For instance, my daughter was in a mainstream BY type school in Flatbush. My daughter is now 33, so we are going back some time. In the summer the sock man came to all the bungalow colonies and I stocked up on knee hi’s for the year. In maroon and navy as I always did. Now I get home and get a package from the school the first week in September stating that they changed the rules and now they would only allow WHITE knee hi’s. I called them up and told them “Sorry, it is too late to change this rule. Everyone buys and stocks up in the summer and no one starts to shop in Semptember. If you wanted to change this rule you should have done it in June at the end of the last term not after all the parents have already done their shopping. I am sending my daughter in the colored socks I have already spent MY budget on and YOU had better not say anything to her.” My friends all did the same.
The entire year and years to follow my daughter kept coming home with NEW RULES. It drove the kids nuts. So you see WIY it is not a matter of choosing a school with rules and then following them. It is a matter of a school deciding on the rules and then sticking to them!
I agree that when a family chooses a school they are obligated to follow their rules. But I don’t agree that when schools keep making up new silly rules that it applies as well especially when it is midstream.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.