Why was the National Anthem or G-D Bless Ameirica not sung by Siyum Hashas?

rob: Be fair. You’re not being so nice here either. And I feel like unless Popa tells us exactly how he’s feeling (and sometimes even then), his tone always needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

And Popa, I don’t think that’s so true. From those who I’ve spoken to in the Chareidi community in Israel, they don’t seem afraid that they’ll be Shmaded. Nervous about the law, maybe. But I think you’re exaggerating the feelings (or the feelings are exaggerated by your friends who don’t really know what attitudes are like there either).

Whose Halacha?

Don’t be ridiculous. Just because some retard in the dati community is megaleh ponim shelo k’halacha because he can’t stand to see that his zionist religion was false all along–doesn’t make it muttar for men to listen to kol isha.

gavra: Why is kol isha ever assur? Answer that and you have your answer.

Health. I didnt read it either. Moslems do not like jews, especially religious moslems and “the land” has nothing to do with it. Just ask the moslems in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan who never came within 1000 miles of the middle east.

If you are so eager to live under turkish rule, why dont you pick up and move to istanbul?

apushatayid -“Health. I didnt read it either.”

Why do you feel that I should answer your posts without you having to read all the posts in the topic? Your posts end up being silly.

“Moslems do not like jews, especially religious moslems and “the land” has nothing to do with it. Just ask the moslems in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan who never came within 1000 miles of the middle east.”

This is what happens when you don’t read the posts.

Ah please, No Goyim like Yidden.

“If you are so eager to live under turkish rule, why dont you pick up and move to istanbul?”

Again more nonsense. I never said that it’s great to live in Turkey. I said it’s Ossur to have a Medina and a way to get rid of the Medina without any bloodshed is to give it to Turkey!

avhaben: Thank you for your knee jerk non-answer. I guess you really don’t know.

Health: Your response is a much better one. I don’t have an answer for you and wish that women were not in combat in the IDF. However, since Rav Aharon Lichtenstein & Rav Aharon Shteinman (both Gedolei HaDor) agree that there is room to serve in the IDF, I can not fathom how it would be “breaking Halacha”. I assume they have answers, even if I don’t.

Rav Shteinman is completely opposed to IDF service.

If you want to delude yourself, go ahead. The rest of us (including the Neture Karta) know better.

apushatayid -“then why dont you put forth the argument that the state be dismantled and the reigns given over to the current PA leadership, or the current hamas leadership, after all, once there is no more medina, they have nothing to hate us for. Lastly, if you truly believe that giving the land to turkey will not result in jewish blood being shed, you must really be drinking spiked kool aid. Can I have a sip, must really be good stuff.”

Their (Arabs) hate is so deep, from close to a 100 years of Zionism, that even with them not having a reason anymore – there might be some who will want to take revenge. Giving it all to Turkey is only with the international community joining in with Turkey to prevent any retaliation from any Arabs. The Arabs themselves can’t be trusted to protect Jews. Turkey btw, is Not an Arab state, even though the main religion is Islam!

Your beloved Medina is actually guilty of this. They believed the Arabs when they started talking “Peace” with them – that they would stop terrorism. So the “Medina”, who is the protector of Jews acc. to you and your zionist friends, gave up the West Bank and Gaza for peace (besides South Lebanon). So now we have peace in those areas and there is No terrorism!?! So they gave up so much territory and there isn’t even a outward appearance of peace like they have with Egypt.

Unless you have a logical response to this, I think you’re the one drunk on the Zionist’s Kool-aid!

My point wasn’t to Pasken or to say these Gedolim are wrong, but to point out that there is a strong religious reason for those from the Frum community who don’t want to join up

This sentence is self contradictory. That is OK, though, as I believe my point has been made.

Health: I find it funny that you use Eilu v’eilu regarding military service, but refuse to acknowledge it regarding the existence of the state.

Feif Un -“Health: I find it funny that you use Eilu v’eilu regarding military service, but refuse to acknowledge it regarding the existence of the state.”

You continue to Feif Un. This was discussed many years ago in the CR and I wasn’t part of the discussion. It’s a very long post, but I took out the first paragraph.

From -“Still Fuming at Rabbi Belsky and Mishpacha”:

“Matisyohu28 –

Now, re; rav kook – it does not matter to me if you think he was a gadol; the consensus of EVERY other authority was that he was not, or rather, he was a huge talmid chacham, but went off with his zionism. The chofetz chaim held very little of him, as did the brisker rov, reb ahron, reb elchonon, the gerrer rebbe, the satmar rov, and a huge roster of people you know basically nothing of.

You want the gedolim to admit their mistake about the medina – this operates under the assumption that they were mistaken. I forgot of course, that you know more than them. forgive me. Please, tell me who is mistaken – a man who writes about how holy mechalel shabbos soccer players are, because they buy real estate for the sake of a nationalistic entity, which in the words of rav avigdor miller, was the worst thing to ever happen to the jewish people ever(the brisker rov said the same thing), or the entire spectrum of the frum world with the exception of one man who after making the wrong decision was denounced as a rasha and an apikores, at the very elast, by pinacles of shmiras halashon and ahavas yisroel. Rav Kook had no answers to the clear proofs against zionism that the religious zionists churned out – neither do you, and neither did rabbi zimmerman, lamm, rav soleveitchik, or anyone else – did you ever learn vayoel moshe? it should take care of whatever garbage ideas about zionism or the great avodah zara called the medina that you hold above the gedolim.

I wonder what you would say if rav kook was not a zionist…perhaps then, you would take the medina over all the gedolim, after all, acccording to rabbiofberlin-ism, we dont need to listen to the gedolim, but rather we must worship the mighty and holy mind, the individual thinker, the arrogant, secular thinker who thinks for himself(based on what his desires tell him)!

Also, for the record, rav kook would never have agreed with your ideas about emunas chachamim – he also, for the record, wanted women not to vote, and had tznius standards found in hardly any kehilos today, which Im sure you disagree with, being an independent thinker, however this does not stop religious zionist amharatzim from quoting him, without followinh him on his other shitos. They then, become tremendous, irrational machmirim when it comes to things like aliyah(a secular, nationalistic idea which rapes the idea of true yishuv haaretz by instead using it as a ploy to support the medina), and irrational, illogical maikilim when it comes to tznius and women’s ‘rights’, based on, for the record, no shitos(as in, there are no shitos that women can learn gemora, and certainly, rav kook never would have allowed such a thing)

Even though he was a huge talmid chacham; so was korach, and many other poeple who were mistaken. Reb elchonon called him an apikores, the satmar rov said it was assur to read his seforim; you want to follow that shita? well, research the machlokes, if there even was one, and you will see how wrong he was; except rav kook had far more respect for the gedolim than you, especially rav zonnefeld(perhaps the most anti-zionist in the old yishuv), even after the zionism issue.

You blindly follow rav kook – do you know what he based his shitos on? I doubt it. Because any halachik notion he and the entire mizrachi establishment have thought up have been successfully defeated, easily at that. This is because the soton works on emotions mostly, and not reason, so all you have to do is put the fear of holocuasts in a jw’s heart and you’ll have him belieing in the medina(which im sure, like your fellow zionist buddies, you’d ‘die for’, right?)

The odd thing is, most religious zionists will fall into two groups:

A) those who defame universally accepted gedolim, like the brisker rov, reb ahron, rav shach, reb elchonon, and many others who were anti-zionist, especially the satmar rov zt’l. They only defame him the most because he was the only one who wrote a comprehensive sefer on zionism, based on stories which are unverifiable, as well as quotations which are either non-existant or totally misunderstood.

B) when they realize they cant defame them, either because they have some conscious and cannot bring themselves to lie or spread slander, they then begin trying to make it seem like these gedolim were in fact zionists(i once heard on arutz sheva that they claimed that the satmar rov advocated zionism for goyim..feh)

C) ‘divrei elokim chaim’–ists – people who have enough sechel to acknowledge and respect such gedolim, and who say ‘well, we disagree with their shita , and instead we follow rav kook’

C is perhaps the dumbest of all, since the basic idea of eilu veilu, is that you cannot have that concept when one claims the other is wrong. Basically, this means that if Rov A says that rov B is an apikores, that is no longer eli veilu. This idea only works when one may be followed factually, but we say the other was right, because he used torah methodology to reach his conclusion, hence, even though he was factually wrong, he is still ‘right’ in the sense that his ideas were divine.

This is best shown in the gemora which has a shita that moshiach is not coming – obvbiously, we do not hold like this, and it is factually wrong, but it is still divrei elokim chaim, because it was derived through torah methodology.

Zionism, is different. It is a secular, idolatrous(in the words of reb elchonon) movement which some people misguidedly tried to make religious(also reb elchonon, they added religion to avodah zara), with faulty proofs from the torah and a lack of answers to the clear disproofs from the torah, then if a rov comes up with a shita, which the gerrer rebbe said came from ‘rav kook’s ahavas yisroel’, which howver is incorrect, then it is no longer eilu veilu, but simply wrong.

PLease, read vayoel moshe – I can almost guarantee any tainah you have is in there, or if not, it is too elementary to even be dealt with by such an advanced sefer. Also recommended is kovetz ma’amarim by reb elchonon, and michtavim uma’amarim from rav shach.”

All this of kool aid is making me thirsty can I join the lchaim?

I am curious what the Satmar Rebbe Z’l would advocate here in 2012. Would he advocate dismantling the state and handing it over to “moderates” such as Turkey who would be atched over by the ever fair “international community”.

I said I wouldn’t argue anymore, but this is just ludicrous! What makes you think the Arabs would treat the Jews living in Israel any better if there were no Jews in the Knesset? You’re talking as if Arabs were our best friends before 1948. If you want to say your Rebbe is the Satmar Rebbe and you do what he says purely because of Halacha/Mesorah reasons that’s fine, but if you want to convince anyone that his opinion has any shiychus to reality today you’ve lost your dadgum marbles! His opinion is outdated, irrelevant, and totally not applicable to the scenario we have today in the Middle East. You are living in some sort of Chassidish fantasy bubble and you are completely ignorant or apathetic of reality, not sure which. You should really try to understand your enemy and their motives better before trying to cook up solutions to a situation that you obviously misunderstand.

Curiosity -“I said I wouldn’t argue anymore, but this is just ludicrous! What makes you think the Arabs would treat the Jews living in Israel any better if there were no Jews in the Knesset? You’re talking as if Arabs were our best friends before 1948.”

If you want to respond, at least read my posts. I said Turkey, not Arabs. There is actually a difference, despite your ignorance.

“If you want to say your Rebbe is the Satmar Rebbe and you do what he says purely because of Halacha/Mesorah reasons that’s fine, but if you want to convince anyone that his opinion has any shiychus to reality today you’ve lost your dadgum marbles!”

Again for the umpteenth time -I’m not Satmar!

“His opinion is outdated, irrelevant, and totally not applicable to the scenario we have today in the Middle East.”

His opinion is even more revelant – than it ever was.

“You are living in some sort of Chassidish fantasy bubble and you are completely ignorant or apathetic of reality, not sure which. You should really try to understand your enemy and their motives better before trying to cook up solutions to a situation that you obviously misunderstand.”

Actually you’re the one living in your little Zionist dream world. You know nothing about history and yet you continue to spout your nonsense. And btw, you didn’t answer my question from above! Here’s another question for you – How many Jews were killed in EY prior to WW1 -the actual # and percentage? Now compare that to how many Jews were killed in Israel -the actual # and percentage – since the creation of the Medina.

Curiosity -“It’s like talking to a brick.”

And I’d rather talk to the wall, than to Zionists.

Health’s post from before re: Matisyohu sums it up pretty well.

And, as Popa wrote, not only are frum Americans scared of becoming citizens and regretting if they, unfortunately, are citizens by birth, even some secular leave Israel when they realize what a tragic deception they live in. What non-brainwashed person would become a citizen of a country where he has to send his 18-year old kids to be drafted into an army with all the attendant risks, spiritual and physical? It’s called idolatry, Kool-Aid and deception and corruption of Torah, as Popa also alluded to, and that is the cause.

Incidentally, when some of the secular “yordim” do get to America, a good number of them actually become frum once the Zionist indoctrination and culture wears off, B”H, and they see what it’s like to live in a country that has a deep respect (US) rather deep hatred for (Israel), religion.

ROB, whatever your position, and I think it is pretty clear that it is, in Health’s terms, drunk on Zionist Kool-Aid, you really should not bring in the Holocaust as a misayea to your tragically mistaken position. Because, for starters, a mainstream neutral Jewish paper (with a regular whole section on Israel News with a mildly pro-Israel slant, certainly not anti-Israel) recently had a lengthy multi-part series on a small number of the crimes committed by the Zionists DURING and after the Holocaust.

There’s no point telling you to Google what the likes of Yitzhak Greenbaum and others said and did. Like Nazis YM”Sh, the Zionists decided who was worthy of living and who should be left to perish in Europe because they were “old and infirm” rather than young and able to build the state. The Nazis made their selections based on similar criteria when evaluating the Jews in their evil clutches. Also not unlike Nazis (the father-land, etc.), the Zionists did so because the State is above all. And it still is.

Pirkei Avos even says this is expected behavior for government, so this is not a chiddush. What is a chiddush is how people are so blind to the evils of Zionism that they even glorify it.

I’m amazed that more Jews aren’t angry at these reshaim for what they did and continue to do. Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Teheran should be enough to make any feeling Jew’s blood boil. Not to mention the rest: past, present and future. Our ancestors gave their lives and endured horrible fates to avoid shmad. Yet Zionists, who were and are responsible for so much intentional shmad of their OWN JEWISH BRETHREN, are PRAISED and have their idolatrous ideology grafted onto our holy, pure and perfect Torah?

And this kol isha nonsense: Popa is 100% correct. It’s insulting to anyone’s intelligence to claim that this is even necessary much less correct in halacha or otherwise to force these Jews to listen to women sing, whether it’s one or one hundred women together. I wouldn’t be quite as insulting as Popa, but it’s clearly not halachicly permissible. At best, it’s naval birshus HaTorah, but any yeshiva high school bachur can tell you exactly why this kol isha travesty is wrong, meaning assur liHalacha, no matter what RZ authorities say otherwise. They can’t argue with metzius. Especially because the whole thing kol isha choir, etc. is not necessary.

Back to ROB:

Let’s be very clear: Zionism WAS around during the Holocaust and had already hijacked the position of “Jewish Leadership” much to the detriment of our European ancestors/brothers and sisters versus had Agudah been recognized instead or at least in addition to the Zionists. And even if there had been an Israeli army, this incredible and unfathomable gezeirah would not have been ameliorated by the IDF or anything else materialistic. Israel’s continued existence is miraculous. Which means that al pi derech haTeva it should have disappeared long ago. So Zionism is nothing to count on given 1930s and 1940s Europe.

In other words, just because Hashem has sustained the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and their government, this does NOT mean he would have given a theoretical Zionist IDF any koach during the Holocaust just as He put it into the minds of the nations that bombing the tracks was not doable even though they were so close.

But the kicker is that even if the Zionists did have the capability to do something (which they actually did), since the Zionists anyways decided that they didn’t want “the old and infirm”, that they were “like dust” and “would pass”, what makes you so sure they would have bombed the tracks? These same Zionists turned away boats from the shores of Eretz HaKodesh. The same series had a picture of that, too. These Zionists held that only through blood would the nations give them their state after the war. Read up on it.

Yet “religious Zionists” are so sure the IDF would have sent a 1930s-era plane out to Europe to bomb the tracks or do some Entebbe on a far grander scale with far fewer resources and with older technology? This is more Zionist lies and propaganda that had they been around during the Holocaust then nothing would have happened to the Jews. They WERE around and look what they did and didn’t do.

So, in sum, it’s lihepech of the lies Zionists tell you. Zionists were INDEED around and in power during the Holocaust. Look at British archives from Mandatory Palestine. And the Zionists not only allowed but actually preferred that a good portion of (bnei) soneihem shel Yisrael be murdered by the Nazis (read: take out the two words before Yisrael) for the sole criteria of what they thought would be good for their state that they wanted more than life itself. Even the Zionists don’t deny these statements, as far as I’ve seen.

That’s besides the other atrocities, like Yaldei Tehran, and much, much more. But, amazingly, people are actually pro-Zionist rather than, say, simply looking the other way in shame and shock and not having any opinion. This, in spite of all the evidence, halachic, logical and otherwise, that it has been and is a major disaster. And, no having to take a bullet-proof bus to Kever Rachel is not exactly something to write home about. Nor is taking a light-rail train in Yerushalayim and having an Arab savage knife a Jewess, and then his Jewish lawyer on top of that claim that he’s a good boy. Nor any of the Zionist-induced and/or created problems like, just for example, the whole ongoing Oslo disaster and Iranian menace. Nobody needed any of that, just as the gedolim warned and the Zionists insisted on ignoring.

It seems we’re clearly in the Yemei HaMashiach because so many people are so fooled by this avoda zara of Zionism to the point of elevating it to primacy OVER the Torah rather than at least “only” on par with, CH”V despite its many, many, faults and atrocities committed against our people.

May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah, BB”A.

Curiosity -“Just because someone doesn’t want millions of Jews to die in the hands of the Muslims, that doesn’t make one a Zionist.”

Of course it does! I based all my arguments on what I felt was the safest for Jews. And what did you base your arguments on? The Zionists claim – if not for them there would be another Holocaust in EY. While both of us aren’t Neviem to know exactly what would happen – what logic is there in saying that there would be another Holocaust? It says Chochom Odif Menovi. I’m more of a Talmid Chochom than these Freye Tzionim running Israel. I’ve given many logical proofs based on History that Jews were safer under Islamic rule, namely Turkey, than under Zionism. Noone has even attempted to refute these proofs -so my assumption is that they just believe the Zionists’ lies – because of their beliefs in Zionism.

Wake up and smell the coffee! The Zionists don’t care about Jews and esp. Not the Jewish religion. Did you read the YWN news article today – that they are intentionaly ignoring the Rocket Attacks in the South? You believed their lies about why they gave up Gaza and the West Bank because concession of territory has made Israel proper safer. So therefore they have the right to throw all the Jews living there under the bus. But what about the South? The Jews there are also illegitmate like those in the West Bank?!?!?!

Israel claims to be a Socialist form of Gov. but in reality, speaking from s/o who remembers, they actually more resemble Communist Russia. They have the Kibbutzim and Moshavs – which Russia had similar things. They both were started by Non-Frum Jews looking to solve the World’s social problems. Of course had they looked in the Torah -they would have found solutions to everything. And most importantly, they have the ruling parties who don’t care about their citizens, just like Russia.

But the Zionists (Frum & Frei) here and everywhere are sold on this Medina!

HaKatan, what about some of the bad mouthing some of the Old Yishuv did to the British about the new yishuv (in the 1920’s) to discourage immigration.

WHEN A FELLOW JEW IS FLEEING OPPRESSION AND ARRIVES AT THE GATES OF HOLY ERETZ YISROEL YOU DO NOT WORRY ABOUT HIS LACK OF OBSERVANCE CONTAMINATING THE LAND!!!

Josh, I don’t understand the allegation nor the point of said allegation.

HaKatan, your knowledge of history is lacking.

One advocate for the Old Yishuv became a reporter for the Daily Express in the early 20’s….

Google the rest.

Then Google daily express 1933.

“What are you -the spokesman for the Zionist regime?”

I speak this way because I feel I am one of them. And an attack on Israel is an an attack on all Jews.

You talk as if you are part of the Iran regime and help put forth their Blood Libel against us.

These wretched flotillas consist of the biggest Jew haters on this planet. They want the middle east to be Judenrein (G-d forbid) and are willing to die in that cause.

Josh, I Googled as you indicated.

I’ll keep checking, but the first link Google brought up showed this, which is interesting in light of the recent event of the Israeli Chief Rabbis interfering in Germany regarding Bris Milah:

“”Most people are not aware that in March, 1933, long before Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Garden and called for an American boycott of German goods.

London Daily Express

24 March 1933

The Daily Express (London) published an article on March 24, 1933 announcing that the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and described a forthcoming “holy war”. The Express urged Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and demonstrate against German economic interests.

The Express said that Germany was “now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry….In London, New York, Paris and Warsaw, Jewish businessmen are united to go on an economic crusade.”

The article went on, “worldwide preparations are being made to organize protest demonstrations.”

On March 27, 1933 the planned protest at Madison Square Garden was attended by 40,000 protestors (New York Daily News headlines: “40,000 Roar Protest Here Against Hitler”).

Similar rallies and protest marches were also held in other cities. The intensity of the Jewish campaign against Germany was such that the Hitler government vowed that if the campaign did not stop there would be a one-day boycott in Germany of Jewish-owned stores.

Hitler’s March 28, 1933 speech ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods was in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.

That same spring of 1933 there began a period of private cooperation between the German government and the Zionist movement in Germany and worldwide to increase the flow of German-Jewish immigrants and capital to Palestine.

Growing anti-Semitism in Germany and by the German government in response to the boycott played into the hands of the Zionist leaders. Prior to the escalation of anti-Semitism as a result of the boycott the majority of German Jews had little sympathy for the Zionist cause of promoting the immigration of world Jewry to Palestine. Making the situation in Germany as uncomfortable for the Jews as possible, in cooperation with German National Socialism, was part of the Zionist plan to achieve their goal of populating Palestine with a Jewish majority.

“For all intents and purposes, the National Socialist government was the best thing to happen to Zionism in its history, for it “proved” to many Jews that Europeans were irredeemably anti-Jewish and that Palestine was the only answer: Zionism came to represent the overwhelming mjaority of Jews solely by trickery and cooperation with Adolf Hitler.” [1]

____________________

Sources:

[1] Barnes Review, “The Jewish Declaration of War on Nazi Germany, The Economic Boycott of 1933”

Josh, I certainly respect that you “feel [you are] one of them [Zionists].” But your contention that “an attack on Israel is an an attack on all Jews.” is simply not true in the context of Jewish discussion of the unimaginably massive tragedy that was and is Zionism.

The Zionist atrocities mentioned just in this thread, are more than enough to keep one busy all Tisha biAv. So this should not be covered up and have everyone believe your (i.e. Zionist) lies, and, worse, corrupt CH”V our holy religion with this idolatry.

HaKatan:

Don’t you really mean the Illuminati and the Freemasons, not the Rothschilds & the Elders of Zion?

Maybe the Zionists are really aliens from another Galaxy who need our world to power their spaceship back to Zorg?

Perhaps the Zionists are conspiring with the Iranians to wipe out the “real Torah Jews”?

Or maybe it is just the opposite, and the Charaidi Jews are conspiring with the Iranians, together with the Men in Black, the Blue Man Group and the Green Lantern to wipe out the Zionists?

I’m so confused.

I was trying to show how dangerous that newspaper was.

The same paper in the early 1920s hired one representative of the Old Yishuv to bad mouth the new Yishuv and lead to curtailment of immigration.

Of couse HaKatan believes every thing that rag published. Hitler was out to exterminate Jews Zionist and non Zionist and Anti-Zionist alike. No one escaped the Death Machine by waving their Anti-Zionist credentials.