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Whiteberry – some people take every opportunity available to turn a discussion into an anti- Israel rally. Hopefully somebody will be mekarev them.
As for you Health, you say the only thing that makes NK wrong is their willingness to meet with the enemy. If you think their hashkafas are okay, then yes, I have serious doubts about you. That doesn’t equal hatred, but if that’s how you need to misinterpret what I say in order to demonize me then you go right ahead. This conversation isn’t getting anywhere thanks to your relentless hostility. So, you can go pat yourself on the back and pretend you’ve “won”. I’m done here. Have a ksiva v’chasima tova.
Curiosity -“As for you Health, you say the only thing that makes NK wrong is their willingness to meet with the enemy. If you think their hashkafas are okay, then yes, I have serious doubts about you. That doesn’t equal hatred, but if that’s how you need to misinterpret what I say in order to demonize me then you go right ahead.”
You just admitted that you believe anyone who is totally against the Medina falls into the category of NK. Now why would you do that? I’m not the one demonizing you – you are actually doing that to me because you don’t like my political views -so you marginalized me by lumping me together with NK.
The very possession of governmental control in Eretz Yisroel is a sin. The opposition to Zionism extends only to governmental control over EY, and to the idea of a Jewish “homeland” before Moshiach. Living in Eretz Yisroel has nothgin to do with Zionism c”v, and the reason for it is to fulfill the Mitzvos or the land, to live in its holiness, and, acocrding to some opinions, to fulfill the Mitzvah of living in EY which may apply nowadays. These Mitzvos and concpets applied equally before there was a Medinah as they do after. And they apply today to someone who lives in Southern Lebanon, which Halachicly is part of Eretz Yisroel, as much as in Tel Aviv.
Opposition to the government is due to the fact that there is much to oppose there. The heretics that run the government there have no right to violate the Torah, and no right to put Jews in danger, and no right to even present themselevs or their Medinah as representative of the Jewish People. All Jews have a right to live in Eretz Yisroel and fulfill the Torah – including opposing the government where appropriate – and no elected officials have a right to tell them they cant.
The Zionists were warned by the Gedolim that is they go through with their idea of making a Jewish State in Eretz Yisroel, they will be surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs, who were instigated by the Zionists’ threat of taking away the land where they live and making it into a Jewish State, into becomeing bloodthirsty enemies of the Jews, which will result in endless slaughter of Jewish lives. They heard this would happen but not being religious, they thought that having our own land will make us just like everyone else, and we will not be hated any longer. Our Tzadikim understood that anti-semitism hsa nothgin to do with social issues but rathre is a spiritual reality and that the “we-will-blow-you-all-up-with-our-tanks-if-you-start-up-with-us” attitude of the Zionists only serves to put Jewish lives all over the world in danger and just increase anti-semitism. Which it did.
So now you ask what to do? I dont know. I dont think there is a anything to do to “solve” the problem. We need to constantly see what to do to protect each and every Jew in EY and elsewhere, but the problem of the Arabs wanting the land will not be solved. And it cannot be solved by abolishing the Medinah because due to the behavior of the Zionists over the past 50 years the Arabs now hate our guts and want to kill us all, which makes giving the Medinah to the Arabs a terrible idea. After the Medinah was created, there was no going back. The problem was created, and, al pi derech hatevah, will be with us till Mohsiach comes. Only Hashem can get us out of this one. We have to return to Him with all our hearts and pray for His salvation.
The Oaths were the core of the opposition to creating a Jewish State by all the Gedolim, not only Satmar. Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch speaks about them extensively regarding his oppostition to Zionism in Chorev, the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab) mentions says so, too, in his famous letter in Daas HaRabanim. Reb Elchonon Wasserman brings them in his Ikvesa D’Meshichah, and Rav Shach and the Steipler make mention of this as well in their letters.
Other Gedolim have said the same thing as well. In the famous letter of the Rebeb Rashab of Lubavitch about the Zionists, he writes clearly that even if they would all be nice religious Jews, it woudl not change anything. Their being heretics is emphasized because thats easy enough to see and understand even withotu any great Torah knowledge, and it is uncontrovertable even by the most confusing and confused Zionist. Its black and white.
The material there almost duplicates the Daas of the other Gedolim on all the core issues, such as, the prohibition of creating a State before moshiach comes, the violation of the Oaths etc. The disagreement between Satmar and other Gedolim are only on minor issues such as voting in the elections, being part of the government and taking money from them. And even in those issues, there is no unanimity among the authorities even outside Satmar.
How many times do I have to post that it is an obligation to establish a state in EY and go to war if necessary to conquer it (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot)? As for the government, with all its faults it has the support of the people and this gives it the din of melech according to Rav Kook and all those who follow him (and being that Eli Yishai sits in the security cabinet I presume that Rav Ovadia also agrees).
Gut Voch -“And it cannot be solved by abolishing the Medinah because due to the behavior of the Zionists over the past 50 years the Arabs now hate our guts and want to kill us all, which makes giving the Medinah to the Arabs a terrible idea.”
This I agree with, but it still can be given to other Muslim countries like Turkey -who don’t hate Jews that much that they want to destroy them. All Goyim hate Jews, though.
And they didn’t even hate the Zionists until very recently, when Israel decided to attack their ship.
Avi K -“How many times do I have to post that it is an obligation to establish a state in EY and go to war if necessary to conquer it (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot)? As for the government, with all its faults it has the support of the people and this gives it the din of melech according to Rav Kook and all those who follow him.”
First of all, you’re the one that’s always screaming about the Satmar Rebbe zt’l -“Daas Yochid” -so how many other Rishonim hold like this Ramban?
Second of all, Rabbi Kook is also a Daas Yochid; most Gedolim were against making a Medina.
And the fact that you keep saying that there is a Mitzva of Yishuv Haaretz nowadays and that this applies even to this Medina is Krum! The Rishonim that hold this would turn over in their graves if they knew people like you were applying their words to a Medina based on Kefira!!!
Avi K:
“As for the government, with all its faults it has the support of the people and this gives it the din of melech according to Rav Kook”
Remember that “daas yochis” term you keep throwing around about the Satmar Rebbe?..
Health:
“it still can be given to other Muslim countries like Turkey -who don’t hate Jews that much that they want to destroy them.”
Do you think that is practical?
Health: The Mitzvah of Yishuv Ha’aretz exists no matter what type of government there is. It existed under Roman, Christian, Muslim and British rule, even if we couldn’t do it then. And it applies now. The Medinah is Lo Ma’aleh V’lo Morid on whether there’s a Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael.
I’m not sure the relevance (but staying on topic doesn’t seem to be a requirement here), but it should be noted that the koran is filled with numerous statements that are rabidlt anti jewish and venemous anti jewish statements are attributed to mohammed. Islam, like xtianity is rooted in jewish hatred and its adherents learned its lessons well. This hatred exists independent of zionism or a jewish state. It might be a convenient excuse to vent the hatred, but it is surely not the cause for any hatred.
Finally, the reality is, we can not turn back the clock 75 years. The reality is there is a “state of israel” and one must live with the reality.
The hashkafa of the satmar rebbe z’l is completely inknown to me, but I have a hard time believing, as some strongly imply, that were he alive today, he would be advocating the overthrowing of the government or would advocate voting for a completely non jewish slate of candidates. If he would, could someone point to where in his writing this is specifically advocated?
Sam2 -“Health: The Mitzvah of Yishuv Ha’aretz exists no matter what type of government there is. It existed under Roman, Christian, Muslim and British rule, even if we couldn’t do it then. And it applies now. The Medinah is Lo Ma’aleh V’lo Morid on whether there’s a Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael.”
Either you’re nitpicking or you really misunderstood me. I thought it was obvious when I wrote “Yishuv Ha’aretz” in response to him – that I was talking about the whole nine yards, not just “Yishuv Ha’aretz” as a stand alone!
MW13, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, in a teshuva regarding the status of Eilat (the decensored version which iy”H will be published soon) calls the State “malchut”. As I previously posted, being that Eli Yishai is a member of the Security Cabinet this presumably is also Rav Ovadia’s view. Moreover, the Netziv in Haamek Devar on the mitzva of apointing a king says that elected representatives would have the right to declare war.
oy….. health is turning hinself into a pretzel, trying to justify some of his outrageous statements. Did health REALLY write that there is no mitzvah of “yishuv ho-oretz’ because there is a jewish medina there? His pretzel-like answer does not answer this. The fact is- FACT- that the Rishonim who hold that “yishuv ho-oretz” is a mitzvah d’oraisa (Ramban most prominently) would endorse today’s yishuv enthusiastically. Come to think of it, talmidie habaal shem tov ANd talmidei Hagro ,both, made alyah in dorves these past two and a half centuries.
As has been said ad nauseum, now that there is a medinah ,it would be absolutely outrageous to wish for its destruction. This is like asking for a third churban- chas vechollilo, with all its catastrophic results for six million jews. Time to shelve those pamphlets and work at making this medinah better and more yiddish.
ROB -“As has been said ad nauseum, now that there is a medinah ,it would be absolutely outrageous to wish for its destruction. This is like asking for a third churban- chas vechollilo, with all its catastrophic results for six million jews.”
Noone here is wishing for it’s destruction, just the dismantling.
Everytime s/o says something against the holy “Medina” -all the Zionists come out of the woodwork screaming “Wolf”!
This ploy doesn’t fool me, but unfortunately it fools a lot of others.
And Ch’vs that the Medina goes ahead and dismantles the Yeshivos -Hashem might stop protecting the Jews there from their enemies!
How do you propose the process of dismantling takes place? Once whatever it is that should be dismantled, is dismantled, what will remain? Will something be erected in its place? Is that of no concern, so long as dismantling occurs?
Apushatayid, nobody wants to dismantle the yeshivot c”v. People just want all those who are registered but not learning, and especially the shababnikim, to do their share and iy”H turn into productive citizens.
AviK. I was replying to a specific statement. Am basicly looking for clarification of what it means by the one who wrote it.
“Noone here is wishing for it’s destruction, just the dismantling.”
Noone here is wishing for it’s destruction, just the dismantling.
nearim omrim l’vnos, u’zekeinim omrim l’haros…sh’binyan nearim harisus hu, v’harisas zekeinim binyan hu.
(sorry folks, I don’t have hebrew enabled on this computer)
Certainly harisus nearim harisus.
Anyone calling for harisus today is in the category of nearim.
Josh: Actually, that is the opposite of what the medrash says.
apushatayid -“How do you propose the process of dismantling takes place? Once whatever it is that should be dismantled, is dismantled, what will remain? Will something be erected in its place? Is that of no concern, so long as dismantling occurs?”
If you would read all the posts before commenting -you would have understood. Dismantle the Medina by giving it to Turkey.
Josh31 -“Certainly harisus nearim harisus.
Anyone calling for harisus today is in the category of nearim.”
The only ones who are Naarim are ones who think having a Medina based on Kefira is G-d’s will!
I hate to stick my nose into a week long conversation and focus on one point. Turkey? Is that because they are the modern day successors to the Ottoman Turks? Why not give it back to the.original Caananites? Moreover, you trust the Turks not to destroy whatever jews and jewish way of life currently exists. They have a hard enough time being “moderate” as it is, imagine they were surrounded and pounded by Hamas and the other terror groups and how quickly they would capitulate to any and all demands of jewish destruction if it meant their safety. Yes, the secular israelis do not make life easy for a torah jew, do they wish their destruction? When the hellenist kings ran the show in e’y, did chazal advocate dismantling the kingdom and giving it over to the greeks or the romans? You might be “anti medina”, but surely you don’t wish to condemn an entire population of jews to life under the “moderate” turks.
I have that delicious view of “health” continuing to spout his improbable and eccentric views on Eretz Yisroel (I am being kind)for the next fifty years (I assume he is young) and grind his teeth as Eretz Yisroel (medinah and all) goes from strength to strength and continues to be the haven for Jews from all over the world , as the rest of the world slowly implodes…..fullfilling the Neviim’s vision of the return to Zion!
Why Turkey? Why not some goy on the street?
Whiteberry -“Why not give it back to the.original Caananites?”
And whom might they be – Arabs?
“They have a hard enough time being “moderate” as it is, imagine they were surrounded and pounded by Hamas and the other terror groups and how quickly they would capitulate to any and all demands of jewish destruction if it meant their safety.”
You are so wrapped up with the holy “Medina” that you can’t think out of the box. The Turks would take over the West Bank and Gaza too. The terrorist orgs. would happly dismantle because there is noone to fight for over land. Yes, this is the lies that the Zionists keep saying -“It’s not possible to have peace with the Goyim”. This line shows the hypocrisy -if it’s not possible why did they give them South Lebanon & Gaza & soon they will give them the West Bank? If it’s either us or them -why give up territory without a fight?
“When the hellenist kings ran the show in e’y, did chazal advocate dismantling the kingdom and giving it over to the greeks or the romans?”
Because at that time Chazal were doing the will of G-d. Hashem was still having mercy on us hoping for us to do Teshuva.
The Medina’s creation has nothing to do with G-d’s will. The sooner it’s gone, the better. That is if you believe in G-d. I don’t think a lot of Zionists do!
“You might be “anti medina”, but surely you don’t wish to condemn an entire population of jews to life under the “moderate” turks.”
Wake up to reality. Before WW1, the Goyim and Jews lived quite peacefully without terrorist attacks and having to run to bomb shelters, sealed rooms and needing gas masks.
ROB -“(I am being kind)for the next fifty years (I assume he is young)”
Yes, I am young at heart.
“goes from strength to strength and continues to be the haven for Jews from all over the world , as the rest of the world slowly implodes…..fullfilling the Neviim’s vision of the return to Zion!”
And perhaps your fantasy is just that?!?! The reality could very well be that they attack Iran and Iran turns Israel into a wasteland and then Hashem will gather up all the Jews from Chutz L’aretz. I hope Ch’vs this doesn’t happen, but to pretend that the Medina is the Savior of all our problems -is just drinking the Kool-aid of the Zionists!
Right now, it is a very dangerous time to be in Israel because they might be on the brink of war with a major country.
dear “health”: The more you write comments, the more you expose yourself to ridicule. Just to save your pride, I think I’ll just ignore your opinions and views and regard them as a result of drinking too much havdalah wine.
“Before WW1, the Goyim and Jews lived quite peacefully”
Yep, prior to WWI the yidden of the old yishuv sat around the campfire and sang kumbaya with them. Perhaps they discussed these and similar citations from the koran and how they foster peace and brotherhood between the moslem arabs and their jewish neighbors.
.O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends.
. Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews…. And of their taking usury … and of their devouring people’s wealth by false pretenses. We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom
. The resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will war with the Jews and the Muslims will kill them; … the trees and rocks will say, “O Muslim, O Abdullah, here is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.
Oh, and as far as Turkey is concerned, their foreign minister is on the record as having said hamas is not a terrorist organization, was once awarded and accepted the khaddafi prize for human rights (not sure how one qualifies for nomination) and has continually refused to acknowledge a UN Security Council resolution to freeze assets belonging to Yasin al Qadi, a leading financier of global terrorism. You sure you want to put millions of jews under his control? You might have a beef with “the medina”, but you might want to reconsider who you dump its citizens on once the dismantling takes place.
“but to pretend that the Medina is the Savior of all our problems -is just drinking the Kool-aid of the Zionists!”
Has anyone on this thread made such a claim?
ROB -“dear “health”: The more you write comments, the more you expose yourself to ridicule. Just to save your pride, I think I’ll just ignore your opinions and views and regard them as a result of drinking too much havdalah wine.”
Does this mean you’re finally conceding, but you’re using a lame excuse blaming me – because you won’t admit it?
apushatayid -“Yep, prior to WWI the yidden of the old yishuv sat around the campfire and sang kumbaya with them. Perhaps they discussed these and similar citations from the koran and how they foster peace and brotherhood between the moslem arabs and their jewish neighbors.”
Look I read “From Time Immemorial” also. This doesn’t change the fact that Arabs got along with Jews in EY during Turkish rule!
“Oh, and as far as Turkey is concerned, their foreign minister is on the record as having said hamas is not a terrorist organization, was once awarded and accepted the khaddafi prize for human rights (not sure how one qualifies for nomination) and has continually refused to acknowledge a UN Security Council resolution to freeze assets belonging to Yasin al Qadi, a leading financier of global terrorism. You sure you want to put millions of jews under his control? You might have a beef with “the medina”, but you might want to reconsider who you dump its citizens on once the dismantling takes place.”
I posted this above -“The Turks would take over the West Bank and Gaza too. The terrorist orgs. would happly dismantle because there is noone to fight for over land.”
So there will no more Hamas or any other terrorist org. Keep drinking the Zionist’s Kool-aid that these people can’t be made peace with. The longer the Medina exists -the more wars/terrorism there will be!
apushatayid -“Has anyone on this thread made such a claim?”
Yea, ROB did and I quote -“continues to be the haven for Jews from all over the world, as the rest of the world slowly implodes.”
The implication is – the only Savior for the Jews is the Medina!
I had decided not to respond anymore to the rants of “health”, as they are so outlandish and they make a caricature of anything holy . But my name was mentioned in reference to “kibbutz goluyos”, so I’ll answer it. I don’t know how you characterize a ‘savior’ (usually it is a person) but what has happened in the past hundred years in eretz ysroel clearly is “kibbutz goluyos”. Whether you like it or not, IT IS A HAVEN for jews from the whole world.
Whether you like it or not, IT IS A HAVEN for jews from the whole world.
Sure. A haven that frum jews all over the world are petrified of being citizens of, or their kids being citizens of, because they will be forced into an army which tries to force them to break halacha.
So, bottom line. Hatikva wasn’t sung at the Siyum HaShas because (tongue firmly planted in cheek) clearly the medina represents everything that is wrong with the world. But america, the goldener medina, where nobody is forced to serve in the army, whose entitlement programs probably support more torah than anyone in the world bar none (well perhaps aside from “the medina) and whose policies and culture help foster growth in yiras shamayim, surely her national anthem should have been sung.
Why only the national anthem? We should all be criticizing the Gedolim shlita (after all, we’re smarter than them) for not doing all of the following patriotic acts at the Siyum HaShas…
1) Singing the National Anthem
2) Singing G-d Bless America
3) Reading the Pledge of Allegiance
4) Flying, actually parading with, the American Flag
5) Reading the Declaration of Independence
6) Making a barbecue and eating Apple Pie
7) Having a fireworks display
8) Have a moment of silence for fallen soldiers
Does anyone truly want an answer to the original question that opened this topic? Email Rabbi Zwiebel, Shafran or any other Agudah spokesperson. (I won’t, because the question itself doesn’t bother me in any way that I want or need an answer.)
popa-bar-abba- you are lucky that you were not alive during the Holocaust years or right after that….you would have sung a different tune. It is outrageous for you and other people today to criticize from your comfortable chairs in the US of what tens of thousands of frum jews built after the terrible catastrophe of the Holocaust, IN THE MEDINAH ! With your remarks, and the remarks of some others on this, you have put yourself outside of any civil discourse on this.
Amazing how simply noting a certain fact has put me outside the “civil discourse”. Whatever that means.
I haven’t even taken any opinion!
Whiteberry -“But america, the goldener medina, where nobody is forced to serve in the army, whose entitlement programs probably support more torah than anyone in the world bar none (well perhaps aside from “the medina) and whose policies and culture help foster growth in yiras shamayim, surely her national anthem should have been sung.”
You’re probably being sarcastic, but America and everywhere is Golus and not good for Jews! And Israel in Not part of the Geula -it’s also Golus!
ROB -“Whether you like it or not, IT IS A HAVEN for jews from the whole world.”
Yep, it is/was a haven for all those Sefardi Jews, esp. from Teiman, who they Shmaded up in the begining of the Medina.
Even right now it’s a haven for all those African migrant Goyim who come there. We definitely need a haven like this to be equal to all Goyim whether they are Africans, Arabs or whatever, because Israel is a Democracy.
And it’s definitely also good for Jews because they assimilate there. I’m not 100% sure, but the level of assimilation with Goyim/Arabs is high. It’s getting close to the US in this regard.
PBA: Eh. Your tone came across as very unwilling to discuss civilly. His response wasn’t so unexpected.
I don’t see how my tone was uncivil, if by that you mean rude.
And I don’t think that’s what ROB meant; he meant by position puts me outside normal discussion, I think.
popa-bar-abba; I am debating whether your mastery of English is so poor that you don’t even know what you wrote(examples: “petrified”,”forced”, “afraid of being citizens”) and you would absolved of my critical comments or you actually meant what you write and hence, your denial would be disingenuous.
well, you are certainly being uncivil in the way sam references. But I still have no idea what you’re talking about.
popa-bar-abba-
you write : “amazing how simply noting a fact has put me outside civil discourse”. Fact?
Do you have ANY study or polling to support this assertion ‘that frum jews all over the world are petrified to be citizens” ? that “because they will be forced into an army which tries to make them break halacha”?
if you don’t see the nefarious attitude in these passages, then your ignorance of english is even more glaring.
Do you have ANY study or polling to support this assertion ‘that frum jews all over the world are petrified to be citizens” ? that “because they will be forced into an army which tries to make them break halacha”?
Do you have a study that tells you which foot to put into which half of your pants in the morning?
I don’t need a study, I live in this community which is afraid to be a citizen. My friends who are citizens by accident of birth renounce their citizenship. The ones who live in Israel make sure to register all their kids as American so that they can leave when they need to.
if you don’t see the nefarious attitude in these passages, then your ignorance of english is even more glaring.
My how condescending. I don’t really feel like talking with you. You’re rude.
popa-bar-abba-
interesting, you call me “rude” for calling your bluff but you are being “motzi shem ra” on hundreds of thousands of yidden- THAT is FINE!
you have a distorted view of yiddishkeit!
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