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I don’t know why I bother- it is as if we are speaking two languages-without translation- or live on different planets.
health- again- can you show me one- just one- sefer halacha that mentions the sholosh shevuos as psak halacha?
as far as your imaginary friends that we could just hand over the medinah- have you been following the world news these past -oh,thirty years- do you know what has been happening in every arab country with other minorities? the bahai and X-ians are murdered in iraq, the copts are persecuted in egypt, look what happened to the maronites in lebanon…and how about those wonderful turks taht you trust- cyprus is still divided, the X-ians in turkey feel very uneasy…
in short- it has nothing to do with the leaders of the medina- we are in a time when radical islam is ascendant and wants to purge purge itself of all minorities- so, thank you, but I will not trust six million jews to your good wishes and your imaginary friends.
1923, when America closed immigration, was too early for anyone to know. Hitler ym’s came to power in ’33. He didn’t invade Poland until ’39. No one outside Germany could have predicted he would invade. Once he did, it was too late. All doors were closed long before then. Certainly to mass emigration.
ROB:
As Health pointed out, the Satmar Rebbe clearly says that having a state in Eretz Yisroel is assur (as in halachicly assur), on the basis of the three shavous. I quote: “Every single moment that they hold on to their State and government they are reviling G-d in their violation of the Three Oaths through their provocation and rebellion against the Nations, which is prohibited by the Torah, and which brings about the severe punishment for violating the Oaths, as it is written in the Talmud in the tractate Ketuboth, p. 111:”
“as far as your imaginary friends that we could just hand over the medinah- have you been following the world news these past -oh,thirty years- do you know what has been happening in every arab country with other minorities? the bahai and X-ians are murdered in iraq, the copts are persecuted in egypt, look what happened to the maronites in lebanon…and how about those wonderful turks taht you trust- cyprus is still divided, the X-ians in turkey feel very uneasy…”
rabbiofberlin -“I don’t know why I bother- it is as if we are speaking two languages-without translation- or live on different planets.”
Simple -because you think you’re right and Zionists keep trying to manipulate e/o else that they’re right.
“health- again- can you show me one- just one- sefer halacha that mentions the sholosh shevuos as psak halacha?”
Again, the Satmar Rebbe zt’l says it’s Ossur and a so-called “Rabbi” from Berlin, Germany says he’s wrong.
Perhaps your deduction is No deduction? Perhaps the Rebbe zt’l knew a little more Halacha than you? But keep stamping your feet saying -“there is no such thing as 3 Shuvous -it’s just something that was made up to vilify the “holy” Medina!
“as far as your imaginary friends that we could just hand over the medinah- have you been following the world news these past -oh,thirty years- do you know what has been happening in every arab country with other minorities? the bahai and X-ians are murdered in iraq, the copts are persecuted in egypt, look what happened to the maronites in lebanon…and how about those wonderful turks taht you trust- cyprus is still divided, the X-ians in turkey feel very uneasy…”
This paragraph is an old manipulation trick. I mentioned Turkey and you started with other countries. Noone said to have other countries take over. And what did you say about Turkey? The minorities “feel uneasy”. Are you aware of the Jewish bloodshed that was and is being caused by the Medina? Are you aware of the deaths and permanent disabilities of Jews since the start of Zionism? They caused the terrible Sinah of the Arabs on Jews, by making a Medina. About 99.9% of this bloodshed could have been prevented if the Zionists didn’t do what they did.
“in short- it has nothing to do with the leaders of the medina- we are in a time when radical islam is ascendant and wants to purge purge itself of all minorities- so, thank you, but I will not trust six million jews to your good wishes and your imaginary friends.”
Lies and more lies. It has everything to do with the Medina and Zionism. And of course, you trust and put your life in the hands of the Zionists. Because who else can you and your Tzioni friends trust – G-d????
Health, you are evading the question! In which major halchic work (Rif, Rambam, Rosh, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Nosei Keilim, etc.) are they paskened? What about Ramban’s sttaement in his Sefer HaMitzvot about it being a Tora obligation in our time to conquewr EY? What about Rav Meir Simcha’s statement that the San Remo Conference revoked them and Rav Soloveichik’s statement that the time that Hashem calls has occurred? What about the fact that the Satmar Rebbe himself admitted that he was a daat yachid?
Avi K -“Health, you are evading the question! In which major halchic work (Rif, Rambam, Rosh, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Nosei Keilim, etc.) are they paskened? What about Ramban’s sttaement in his Sefer HaMitzvot about it being a Tora obligation in our time to conquewr EY? What about Rav Meir Simcha’s statement that the San Remo Conference revoked them and Rav Soloveichik’s statement that the time that Hashem calls has occurred? What about the fact that the Satmar Rebbe himself admitted that he was a daat yachid?”
Whoa, calm down. Just because it’s not mentioned in those Seforim doesn’t mean it’s Mutter. Like I said before – maybe your deduction isn’t a deduction? If anybody wants to argue with the Satmar Rebbe and is on the Madreiga to -that’s fine, but stop with – there is no such Halacha.
See the previous page where a partial list of where the Oaths are brought down as halacha, including by the Rambam (Igeres Taimon), Ramban, Megilas Esther on Sefer HaMitzvos of Rambam, Piskei Riaz, Rivash, Rashbash, and the Maharal is cited.
As I said in my earlier posting, why do I even bother?
I (and many others) are still waiting for an exact quotation that sholosh shevuos is halacha (nothwithstanding vochindik and his misleading sources).
As far as the satmarer rebbe saying it is “ossur’ and hence, we must all accept his words- since when do the words of one Possek obligate the whole world? He was daas jochid and remains daas jochid.
Lastly, living and protecting Eretz Yisroel may not be a picnic (to parapahrase mw13) but I’d rather put my faith and safety in the hands of jews anytime. The figures for the death and destruction of minorities in Arab lands dwarfs whatever happened in Eretz yisroel this past century.
I gave you seven maare mekomos of psak halacha, regarding the oaths, plus an exact quote from one. Look earlier in the thread for the seven maare mekomos. Here is the exact quote again.
Maharal, Netzach Yisrael, Ch. 24:
?? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????. ???? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’, ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??
And he says the reason that politics and peaceful dismantling will not work is – Divrei Yoel Parshas Bo p.250 – because the Arabs do not distinguish between one type of Jew and another, unfortunately.
I really, really hope that Englishman said that last line on his own or that it’s a misrepresentation, because the implication is absolutely chilling.
Wel, as I said, “neise sefer venichzeh”- let us look at the sources. “vochindik’ brought down a number of sources to bolster his view about the “issur’ of conquering eretz Yisroel.Well, I have looked at one of these sources (haven’t had time yet to look at others) and this is the ‘megilas esther’ on the Ramban in sefer hamitzvos. ‘vochindik” didn’t give us the exact place so let me do it; it is in the part where the Ramban adds mitzvot that the Rambam did not quote and it is mitzvah 4- (in the Ramban’s count) and the megilas esther. What ‘vochindik’ conveniently ommitted is the Ramban himself- who clearly says that, even in our times, it is a mitzvah to settle Israel (Yishuv ho-oretz) and to take it from the gentiles. See the whole section.
On this- the “megilas esther” tries to explain why the Rambam did not count this as a mitzvah and, in his eyes, it is only “bizman hamikdosh” and “bijemos hamoshiach”. He does mention the gemoro in kesubos as a source. SO- the Rambam is silent on this, the Ramban is enthusiastic about this and ignores the gemoro in kesubos and the megilas esther -trying to understand the rambam- decides that it is not a mitzvah today. At best, we have a machlokes and the Ramban is good enough for me as a source.I’ll
try to research the other sources.
Continuation of finding the sources mentioned by ‘vochindik”: I looked and read Igeres Teiman by the Rambam- and absolutely nowhere does he espouse the view propagated by “vochindik”. He quotes the sholosh shevuos all the way at the end- telling the jews that are persecuted to hold on to their belief because it is part of our destiny (to suffer from persecutions) and ends by saying that we wait for HKBH remembering us and bringing us back from Golus.That is about all. So- if you think that the events of the past century are a sign from HKBH to gather us from Golus- it fullfills the words of the Rambam. But nowhere does he mention the sholosh shevuos as an “issur” or even as something to follow.
rabbiofberlin -“As I said in my earlier posting, why do I even bother?”
Because you keep hoping to corrupt as many people as you can with your false ideology.
“As far as the satmarer rebbe saying it is “ossur’ and hence, we must all accept his words- since when do the words of one Possek obligate the whole world? He was daas jochid and remains daas jochid.”
Noone said you have to accept his word(s), but how many Poskim do you have nowadays that say like you that aren’t in the Mizrachi camp?
“Lastly, living and protecting Eretz Yisroel may not be a picnic (to parapahrase mw13) but I’d rather put my faith and safety in the hands of jews anytime. The figures for the death and destruction of minorities in Arab lands dwarfs whatever happened in Eretz yisroel this past century.”
More lies. Forget about whether it’s a Mitzva to have a Medina right now – how come all the Jewish lives lost because of the Medina doesn’t bother you? Tell me how many Jews were killed under Turkey’s rule in EY? Tell me how many Jews are killed in Turkey proper? Now compare that with how many Jews have been killed since the start of the Medina!
Health, “Just because it’s not mentioned in those Seforim doesn’t mean it’s Mutter”? Are you saying that anything not mentined in the Halachic codes is assur? It is obvious that all of the poskim knew about the Shalosh Shevuot. The fact they ignored them shows that they did not consider them Halacha but Aggadata.
Vochindik, with all due respect to the gadlut of the Maharal, he is a commentator and baal machshava not a posek. Besides, the Shlalosh Shevuot were said before the destruction of the Bayit Rishon. Apparently Ezra either discounted them or thought that the time that Hashem calls had come. In nay case, Rav Mei Simcha and Rav Soloveichik consider them to no longer be of any force or effect (if they ever were) as I have posted several times.
Avi K -“Health, “Just because it’s not mentioned in those Seforim doesn’t mean it’s Mutter”? Are you saying that anything not mentined in the Halachic codes is assur? It is obvious that all of the poskim knew about the Shalosh Shevuot. The fact they ignored them shows that they did not consider them Halacha but Aggadata.”
Stop with your nonsense. Not everything is Ossur in this world. But the fact that it wasn’t mentioned doesn’t necessarily make it Mutter. The Satmar Rebbe zt’l said it’s Ossur, so until you find me a Poisek on his caliber in our generation that says differently – how could you argue on him?
The Chofetz Chaim wrote a Sefer where he got this nickname from. Acc. to you – you can throw out his Sefer because these Halachos aren’t in Shulchan Aruch. So say when the Gemmora says it’s Ossur to give Eidus alone -it’s not really Ossur -it’s just Aggadata, Not Halacha!
Healh-the fact that you are resorting to insults and invective shows how weak your case is. “divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”.
Just to answer your questions- when i said that the number of minorities that have been killed by Islamists in recent decades (Iran, Iraq, lebanon, sudan, egypt…etc), I was showing that today- there is a virulent islam that kills all in its way- and this is what -chas vesholom- would happen to our brothers and sisters in eretz Yisroel in case islamists take over (believe me, it will not be turkey).
as far as psak- you are welcome to follow the satmarer rebbe but you cannot assert that he is the Possek that the world follows. It is not relevant whether the mizrachi has gedolim on its side (it has,) all you have to do is look at the belzer rebbe, vishnitzer rebbe, gerrer rebbe,klausenburger rebbe, mirrer roshei yeshiva, ponovez roshei yeshiva and many others that participate fully in eretz ysroel ,vote and do not wish- chas vesholom- the destruction of the medinah.
Mods, please delete my two posts on this thread
Why the heck are people still commenting about such a ridiculous topic??
ROB -“Healh-the fact that you are resorting to insults and invective shows how weak your case is. “divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”.”
It doesn’t matter either way – almost e/o here is drunk with the Zionist booze. They ain’t about to kick the habit.
“Just to answer your questions- when i said that the number of minorities that have been killed by Islamists in recent decades (Iran, Iraq, lebanon, sudan, egypt…etc), I was showing that today- there is a virulent islam that kills all in its way- and this is what -chas vesholom- would happen to our brothers and sisters in eretz Yisroel in case islamists take over (believe me, it will not be turkey).”
Well, why do you think that radical Islam has become so strong? Perhaps it has to do with the Medina?
And like I posted in the other topic -in order for Turkey to take it over -there would have to be negotiations with an international body like the UN. There would have to be a guarantee from other countries to protect the civil rights of Jews.
“as far as psak- you are welcome to follow the satmarer rebbe but you cannot assert that he is the Possek that the world follows. It is not relevant whether the mizrachi has gedolim on its side (it has,) all you have to do is look at the belzer rebbe, vishnitzer rebbe, gerrer rebbe,klausenburger rebbe, mirrer roshei yeshiva, ponovez roshei yeshiva and many others that participate fully in eretz ysroel ,vote and do not wish- chas vesholom- the destruction of the medinah.”
More deception. I quoted to you from the Rebbe about the 3 Shavous. Did any of those Gedolim ever Pasken that there is No Issur of 3 Shavous? I think not. Whether they have parties and vote is irrevelant.
And as far as following the Satmar Rebbe zt’l – I posted above –
“But the fact that it wasn’t mentioned doesn’t necessarily make it Mutter. The Satmar Rebbe zt’l said it’s Ossur, so until you find me a Poisek on his caliber in our generation that says differently – how could you argue on him?”
Health why are you assuming that just because nobody explicitly and publicly argues with the Satmarer Rebbe that they all agree to him, and that therefore we should all follow his psak? Maybe it’s because his sheeta isn’t the pashut pshat, or maybe it’s because of a million and one other reasons? I’m personally neither Chassidish nor Ashkenaz, and I don’t follow any of the Satmarer Rebbe’s teachings or any other Chassidish Rebbe for that matter. If you want to follow your Rebbes that’s fine and dandy, but you have absolutely no right to call Jews who follow different sheetos liars and deceivers.
“almost e/o here is drunk with the Zionist booze”
Maybe we are the sober ones and you are drunk on Anti-Zionism.
The Anti-Zionists have elevated “Zionism” to some form of evil far beyond the traditional view of Amalek, and more akin to the devil in some other religions.
The Islamic fanatics are murderous because of their own inherent evil. How dare you blame the Zionists for the deliberate evil of the Islamic fanatics. Are you going to defend these murderers in the Heavenly Court? If yes, then we have have Samael the Sar of Esav in the YWN Coffeeroom.
Zionism has been declared rishus (and apikorsus) by gedolei yisroel.
Health, I have been reading your posts , It is nice to see someone who does not call themselves Satmar who has not fallen in to the trap of Zionism. Keep up the good work!!!!
greatest (greatest what?) : see Josh31.
I see that no one was able to contradict my words about igeres teiman and the ramban in sefer hamitzvos. Interesting, when one actually provides real sources…the detractors of eretz yisroel fall silent….
Health, Rav Chaim Vital, Rav Meir Simcha and Rav Soloveichik say that they are no longer in force either because they wer only for 1,000 years or because the San Remo Conference revoked them or because Hashem has called. See also Shir HaShirim Rabba, 2[7]1that persecuting us “too much” (e.g. the Crusades, which started approximately 1,000 years after the Churban as well as the Chmielnitzky massacres and the Holocaust)brings on the end of days. As for making the Medina the scapegoat for all of the world’s ills, we all know who were the newspaper editors who used that against the Jewish people.
Greatest, it has been declared the opposite by other gedolei Yisrael.
“greatest” – source please.
Most, if not all, of us here are agreeing Zionism isn’t daas Torah. We aren’t into -isms (except Judaism) and innovative movements. The only issue here is how strongly, if at all, should we be moche against Zionism. While Health and the Neturei Katra feel we should be moche to the point of “machoh timcheh et zecher” haZionists, the majority of us feel that this is uncalled for and has no practical toeles. I know Health is going to bash me for including him in the NK camp, but they (and the Muslims) are the only other ones who use the terms “Zionist lies,” and “drunk with Zionist booze.” We don’t give in to the anti-Semitic propaganda efforts of turning “Zionist” into a four letter word. He’s also going to want to bash me for using the term “majority” when Judaism isn’t a democracy, but our beliefs are based in the ways of the majority of gedolim (even though he’ll claim they aren’t).
If you doubt the veracity of those of us refuse to join the clans of self hating Jews who hold hands with the enemy and claim they’re “real Torah Jews”, maybe you should ask someone more reliable and less anonymous. I challenge you to go to local orthodox shuls in your community that say misheberachs for tzahal soldiers, and ask them which poskim they got their heter from.
Curiosity -“Health why are you assuming that just because nobody explicitly and publicly argues with the Satmarer Rebbe that they all agree to him, and that therefore we should all follow his psak? Maybe it’s because his sheeta isn’t the pashut pshat, or maybe it’s because of a million and one other reasons? I’m personally neither Chassidish nor Ashkenaz, and I don’t follow any of the Satmarer Rebbe’s teachings or any other Chassidish Rebbe for that matter. If you want to follow your Rebbes that’s fine and dandy, but you have absolutely no right to call Jews who follow different sheetos liars and deceivers.”
This is the deception, not what you said. I’m not assuming that they hold that the 3 Shavous are Halacha, but just because they want to work with the Treif Medina doesn’t mean that they don’t think it’s a problem. As a matter of fact, I’m still waiting for s/o to say – Rav so & so holds or told me that the 3 Shavous don’t apply nowadays. And this Rav should be s/o who’s not from the Mizrachi camp.
Josh31 -“The Islamic fanatics are murderous because of their own inherent evil.”
And who says not?
“How dare you blame the Zionists for the deliberate evil of the Islamic fanatics.”
Did you ever hear of “two wrongs don’t make a right”?
I blame the Zionists for them causing Hashem to release his fury on Yidden through the Muslims.
“Are you going to defend these murderers in the Heavenly Court?”
No. And I won’t defend Zionists either!
RebRY -“Health, I have been reading your posts , It is nice to see someone who does not call themselves Satmar who has not fallen in to the trap of Zionism. Keep up the good work!!!!”
TY!
Avi K -“Health, Rav Chaim Vital, Rav Meir Simcha and Rav Soloveichik say that they are no longer in force either because they wer only for 1,000 years or because the San Remo Conference revoked them or because Hashem has called. See also Shir HaShirim Rabba, 2[7]1that persecuting us “too much” (e.g. the Crusades, which started approximately 1,000 years after the Churban as well as the Chmielnitzky massacres and the Holocaust)brings on the end of days. As for making the Medina the scapegoat for all of the world’s ills, we all know who were the newspaper editors who used that against the Jewish people.”
How could you ever be taken seiously when all you do is post the same old -same old? How about addressing my point from above?
“The Satmar Rebbe zt’l said it’s Ossur, so until you find me a Poisek on his caliber in our generation that says differently – how could you argue on him?”
Noone that you mentioned fall into this category. Note “caliber” and “in our generation”!
ROB -“I see that no one was able to contradict my words about igeres teiman and the ramban in sefer hamitzvos. Interesting, when one actually provides real sources…the detractors of eretz yisroel fall silent”
The reason I didn’t post on this – is because it doesn’t make a difference. Even if they hold it’s a Mitzva to have a Yishuv and/or Jewish gov., not in a million years would they consent to the Zionist gov. We don’t even know what it means to be a Rishon, but one thing I can tell you – none of them would ever agree to having a Gov. in EY based on Kefira!
The issur to have a tattoo goes on the actual action of tattooing. Once you have the tattoo you have no chiyuv to remove it mitzad the issur of kaakua. A nazzir swears off drinking wine, but if you cut him open and put wine in his stomach, he isn’t over an aveira. If he drinks it, he doednt need to vomit it out. So too the shvua prohibiting establishing a state goes only on the process of establishment. Once it’s established you need not remove it, it’s irrelevant to the shvua. Especially if it will get ppl killed in the process. The Satmar Rebbe’s psak is irrelevant now and if you push for it you will get 7 million Jews killed. Someone who pushes for the disestablishment of the state of Israel is considered a rodef and is chayav misa as such.
Curiosity -“While Health and the Neturei Katra feel we should be moche to the point of “machoh timcheh et zecher” haZionists, the majority of us feel that this is uncalled for and has no practical toeles. I know Health is going to bash me for including him in the NK camp”
This post proves why it’s not a good idea to be in the middle. While there are Gedolim who have your Shitta, they haven’t fallen into the trap of Sinas Chinum, like you have. I don’t know how old you are and I don’t know if you’re being honest and that you really aren’t a closet Zionist, but you certainly don’t even begin to understand the prob with NK. You think that their prob is calling out the Zionists publically. No, you couldn’t be further from the truth. Many Gedolim share their disdain towards the Medina. The prob with NK is that they demonstrate and meet with Islamic fascists. There is no excuse to join up with Reshayim, even if it’s for the best cause in the world.
It’s sad when Frum people like you hate guys like me more than people who are constantly rebeling against G-d, like the Zionists!
Health: Someone did say the 3 shavuos don’t apply. R’ Meir Simcha was quoted as having said that.
As for the mizrachi camp, why can’t it be someone from there? What if I ask you to quote someone who says the 3 shavuos are still in effect, just not from the Satmar camp?
I don’t hold of the political medina, but I hold even less of those who think we can just say “sorry” and leave without people dying. At least the politicians in charge there are realistic. I don’t hate you personally because I don’t know how actively you protest against Israel and proactively pursue actions that will get millions of Jews killed, but i do hate Neturei Karta. They’re actively trying to get my entire family and all of my friends in Israel killed by Jew-hating Arabs. So, can you blame me? Neturei Karta are rodfim, and it’s not because they shake hands with Arabs. They’re chayav misa, and have no chelek leolam haba. That’s not my opinion saying it. I was told this by a Rosh Yeshiva, an adam Gadol, a tremendous talmid chacham, who was one of the top talmidim to ever come out of a prominent Litvish Yeshiva in NY. He was also a very close talmid of a recently niftar Gadol Hador. It’s not sinas chinom talking on my end, but I have serious doubts about you.
health reminds me of the famous saying; “what do you believe, me or your own eyes?” Multiple people have posted telling him that many gedolim said explicitly that the sholosh shevuos lapsed centuries ago but he continues his mantra ‘”but the satmarer rebbe says they are still valid!”. It is totally useless to argue,except to point out the fallacies of his approach. All you can continue saying- in the face of rishonim, acharonim amd recent gedolim who disagree, “but the satmarer rebbe says they are valid!” good luck, health ,in trying to convince six million jews in eretz yisroel.
roberlin: Repeating yourself over and over and over while ignoring the many many proofs brought and cited here doesn’t help, even if you subscribe to the idea that if you repeat a lie often enough some people will believe it.
Regarding the seven sources already brought, here is part of the Rambam:
???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???
And as Shlomo HaMelech knew with divine inspiration that the Jewish People would face the consequences of this and that suffering would come upon them, and warned the Jewish People not to do this (i.e. violate the Three Oaths), and made them swear not to commit these acts, as it is written in Shir Hashirim, 3,5: I made you swear Daughters of Jerusalem by the deer and gazelles of the field should you arouse or awaken love until it is so desired.
Therefore, you, dear brethren, must accept the Oath and do not attempt to arouse the love until the proper time when the Alm-ghty shall remember us and you with his trait of mercy to gather his portion from Exile to behold his glory at his holy Temple and redeem us from the Valley of the shadow of Death where he has placed us, thereby removing the darkness from our eyes and the fog from our hearts.
Maharal:
????? ‘????? ?? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????. ???? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’, ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??
I’m a little late to this discussion with zero interest in reading almost 4 pages of posts.. Can someone bring me up to speed here? Which of the three oaths forbids the singing of the star spangled banner at the siyum hashas?
I’m trying to picture the scene… Shlomo Gertzulin welcomes everyone to met life stadium, thanks everyone for coming and the next thing you hear is a rendition of hatikva sung as only the duet of abish brodt and chazan helfgott can sing it.
You’re all quoting the original issur, wonderful. We all agree there were shvuas. Where does it say that a person who tattooed his arm should have to amputate it? You’re all missing the point, and instead of accepting that there exist sheetos other than the Satmar’s you just lob insults at other Jews who are no less righteous than yourselves.
Or, alternatively, after the Novominsker Rebbe shlita gives his drasha at the siyum, Matisyahu and Tupac Shakur do a duet to “Darkness into Light”.
Would be about the same.
Whiteberry – lekulei alma still conversing here, singing it at the siyum is a ridiculous proposition. We’re discussing a side issue.
Curiosity -“The issur to have a tattoo goes on the actual action of tattooing. Once you have the tattoo you have no chiyuv to remove it mitzad the issur of kaakua. A nazzir swears off drinking wine, but if you cut him open and put wine in his stomach, he isn’t over an aveira. If he drinks it, he doednt need to vomit it out. So too the shvua prohibiting establishing a state goes only on the process of establishment. Once it’s established you need not remove it, it’s irrelevant to the shvua. Especially if it will get ppl killed in the process. The Satmar Rebbe’s psak is irrelevant now and if you push for it you will get 7 million Jews killed. Someone who pushes for the disestablishment of the state of Israel is considered a rodef and is chayav misa as such.”
Now you have become a Poisek. How about naming s/o who says the Shavous are irrevelant after the establishment of the State?
Quote from the Satmar Rebbe from the previos page:
“Every single moment that they hold on to their State and government they are reviling G-d in their violation of the Three Oaths through their provocation and rebellion against the Nations,”
So he seems to disagree with you, but I guess you know better.
And btw, if you even know the Halachos of Rodef, if they give the State to a country like Turkey and the international community guarantees the civil rights of Jews -there will no bloodshed.
OTOH, continuing with the Zionist regime -there will probably be more terrorist attacks and wars with subsequent casualties.
Feif Un -“Health: Someone did say the 3 shavuos don’t apply. R’ Meir Simcha was quoted as having said that.”
And I posted -“The Satmar Rebbe zt’l said it’s Ossur, so until you find me a Poisek on his caliber in our generation that says differently – how could you argue on him?”
Noone that you mentioned fall into this category. Note “caliber” and “in our generation”!”
He isn’t from our generation.
“As for the mizrachi camp, why can’t it be someone from there? What if I ask you to quote someone who says the 3 shavuos are still in effect, just not from the Satmar camp?”
That person from the mizrachi camp would be good for s/o like you who is MO, but a guy like “curiousity” who claims he is from the Yeshiva camp hasn’t brought down anyone nowadays who says the Shavous don’t apply.
The underlying concept of the “Shalosh Shevuos” was that accepting the realities of power and being good citizens was a key to survival for the Torah community in the last 2500 years.
Now it has become a fine tuned tool for demonizing Zionism and Israel by the new Anti-Zionist religion. The Anti-Zionists are much more interested in bashing Israel than in being good citizens.
I am sure that the Ayatollahs in Iran are willing to pay good money to these Anti-Zionists to continue to spew their hate. Health’s writings alone in this coffee room are probably worth a few hundred thousand dollars to the Ayatollahs.
Curiosity -“They’re actively trying to get my entire family and all of my friends in Israel killed by Jew-hating Arabs. So, can you blame me? Neturei Karta are rodfim, and it’s not because they shake hands with Arabs. They’re chayav misa, and have no chelek leolam haba. That’s not my opinion saying it. I was told this by a Rosh Yeshiva, an adam Gadol, a tremendous talmid chacham, who was one of the top talmidim to ever come out of a prominent Litvish Yeshiva in NY. He was also a very close talmid of a recently niftar Gadol Hador.”
And who ever argued about this? Get off your soap box!
“I don’t hold of the political medina, but I hold even less of those who think we can just say “sorry” and leave without people dying. At least the politicians in charge there are realistic. I don’t hate you personally because I don’t know how actively you protest against Israel and proactively pursue actions that will get millions of Jews killed, but i do hate Neturei Karta. It’s not sinas chinom talking on my end, but I have serious doubts about you.”
First you say you don’t hate me, but then you say you have serious doubts about me. Your previous post also lumped me with the NK. You talk from both sides of your mouth. Yes, these comments are based on your Sinas Chinum, because why wouldn’t you Dan me L’caf Zecus?
Because you’re so riled up with the politics here – you decided you can hate anyone who doesn’t see eye to eye with your political beliefs.
ROB -“good luck, health ,in trying to convince six million jews in eretz yisroel.”
I post my ideology here in a public forum. It’s Not my duty to convince anyone more than what I’m doing already.
And if most of those 6 million were interested in doing the Rozon of Hashem – there wouldn’t be a Frei Gov. there!
And as each day passes – this Gov. is getting more and more Anti- religious Judaism. Look how they want to stop people from learning Torah by forcing almost e/o into the army!
Side issue. How did one segue into the other? Why not discuss supply side economics too?
Josh31 -“The Anti-Zionists are much more interested in bashing Israel than in being good citizens.
I am sure that the Ayatollahs in Iran are willing to pay good money to these Anti-Zionists to continue to spew their hate. Health’s writings alone in this coffee room are probably worth a few hundred thousand dollars to the Ayatollahs.”
Your lack of understanding about Judaism is why you constantly bash people against the Medina. You are much more interested in being a good citizen than a good Jew.
Do you believe that Hashem runs the world? Do you believe that Hashem can stop our enemies, including the Ayatollahs from harming us? Or do you believe in “Koach V’oizem Yodi”?
Do you believe that if you constantly rebel against Hashem by not following his Torah and constantly attacking those that keep his Torah -that perhaps he’ll stop protecting us?
The Medina is Not our Savior, Hashem is. So stop defending the Zionists and attacking the ones in this world who want to keep the Torah. Maybe better go convince your Zionist friends that forcing Jews learning Torah into the army is Not a good idea.
Even if they don’t keep the Torah themselves, this learning provides even them with protection. So by trying to destroy the Yeshivos – they are actually commiting Suicide!
Vochindik: You quote the Rambam (Igeres Teiman) and you quote a false-repeat-false translation. The actual words are quite different and nowhere does it say in the igeres (as you maintain) that ” He warned the jewish people not to do this”. I don’t know your source but mine has a completely different version- and it clearly says that the possuk from shlomo hamelech a’h is “bederech moshol” (as an example) and it also clearly says that HKBH will indeed bring us back from the golus and gather us from all over the world to bring us back to “levaker beheicholo”- to dwell in His palace. And- B’H, so it is !
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