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Choppy: I was told by a very reliable and elderly source that the word “Chofshi” was deliberate because it could mean free from religion for the secularists but it was also meant to be M’ramez “Ein Nikra Chofshi Ela Mi Sheosek Batorah”. I was very, very impressed when I heard that. And even if that was not the author/composer’s intent, it’s certainly what I think of whenever I hear it.
Sam, so the pashtus halashon is apikursus, but its miramez to something toradik, you see what you did? Krum krum krum
Kozov: I think my point was that the Pashtus Halashon can mean whatever you want it to mean. Which is fine. Apikorsim distort the Torah all the time, but we don’t let that affect our interpetation of it.
to most posters; apikorsos in the hatikvah??? HUH? because it says ‘chofshi”? it has absolutely nothing to do with religion (sorry,Sam2) All it meant was to be ‘free’ in the best sense of the word- free of the yoke of the nations. That is what we say every day in Ahava rabboh too….
Sam: Your source was not very reliable.
Choppy: It’s nice of you to insult a person you never met (or worse, maybe someone you did). You have no idea who I am talking about and insulting such a person is preposterous. And yes, he was reliable. He was very involved with a lot of people near the state’s founding and was a tremendous Talmid Chacham to boot. He might have said this a bit tongue-in-cheek but I learned a long time ago to take everything that this man said as being mostly true. And whether or not the composer personally had this in mind, I guarantee that some people around him did (the phrase Lihyot Am Chofshi was very controversial and was almost not placed in the song).
“Hatikva has apikorsus as part of the song.”
*snort* Do tell, which part?
I sincerely hope there are no non jews reading this thread. The blatent lack of appreciation, respect and pride for our country is overwelming. IMO, the national anthem as well as hatikvah should have been sang at the Siyum. We live in a country of peace & are allowed to practice our religion freely. Those who are allowed to learn torah in Israel whilst the IDF defends the land owe much to these brave men and women.
NOMTW, the reality is that the government in Israel is plagued by anti-Torah, anti-dati stances. The Tikva and the Star Spangled Banner are both creations that celebrate secular governments that are krum and immoral. The Siyum Hashas is a celebration of Torah that is Kadosh and irrelevant to manmade councils of government. The world was created for Torah and the most powerful governments in the world are not even dirt in their importance compared to the Torah hakedosha. We try to be mavdil between kodesh and chol as much as possible. Shall we not be mavdil between kodesh and tuma’ah all the more?
The original Hatikva composed by the zionist Naphtali Herz Imber said: ???? ???? ???????. But the Israelis wanted to davka put apikorsus in it, so they actually changed the poets original composition to ????? ?? ???? ??????.
No One Mourns The Wicked -I sincerely hope there are no non jews reading this thread. The blatent lack of appreciation, respect and pride for our country is overwelming. IMO, the national anthem as well as hatikvah should have been sang at the Siyum. We live in a country of peace & are allowed to practice our religion freely.”
There is absolutely no reason to play the National Anthem, even if we have to have Hakoras Hatov. And this quote from the first page is right on the money:
“BaalHabooze
The National Anthum??!
Mayhaychi taysi?? If you say it’s a din that’s toluy in a large gathering, is the National Anthum sung before a circus? before a movie? before a concert? before, I don’t know, a priest delivers his sermon? No!
So you’ll say it’s a din in the Stadium?! But that’s not true either, because there are plenty of concerts there with a packed crowd and there’s no Anthum sung!”
“Those who are allowed to learn torah in Israel whilst the IDF defends the land owe much to these brave men and women.”
I’m not going to discuss this aspect of Hakoras Hatov to the Medina here -I’ve had this discussion before.
But even if you hold all Jews in EY have to have Hakoras Hatov to the Medina, what does this have to do with Jews living in the USA?
“Kozov: I think my point was that the Pashtus Halashon can mean whatever you want it to mean. Which is fine. Apikorsim distort the Torah all the time, but we don’t let that affect our interpetation of it. “
That is not fine. Just because Harotze Litos Yavo Viyite doesn’t mean you can do things that are Maris Ayin or Lifnei Iver. This is definitely Lifnei Iver, diHava Lei Lifaresh Vilo Listom or not say anything at all (in other words not support the song in any way), because it’s clear as day the meaning most people extract from it (and by your admission).
Kozov: I honestly don’t know what meaning the religious Zionist community gets from it. Maybe someone should poll them.
I was just thinking – if someone tried to introduce a religious prayer at a secular event – wouldn’t it be challenged as a church-state issue? Maybe that could happen if a national anthem was played/sung at a siyum hashas, a purely religious event.
Sam, “chofshi” means independent” as Rambam says at the end of Hilchot Melachim.Unfortunately, a certain Leftist group has appropriated it.The soluiton is for frm Jews to make aliya, become citizens and vote.
Health, one cannot be a complete Jew in the Lands of Tuma (as per Chazal). Ramban even says that the mitzvot Jews do do there are just to keep from getting rusty. If you want to read something really “extreme” look at Rabbi Chanina says on Ketubot 111a.
I thank Hakodosh Boruch Hu every day for the gift of renewing Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisroel.
I thank Him every day for beginning the process of the Geulah.
The “Tikva” of two thousand years described by the author of the anthem is the hope and bitachon of every Jew in the last 2000 years. It is the pashut meaning of “bshuv H’ Es shivas Tziyon.”
The Author also talks of the “Nefesh Yehudi” For those of you who are still using the brain cells Hashem gave you, it is hard to reconcile the idea of a nefesh with a conviction that the anthem, the state, and all connected with it are secular anti religious atheistic cossacks bent on your spiritual destruction. It simply defies logic and rational thought.
“Ulfa’atei Mizrach” is a conscious echo of R’ Yehuda Haleivi’s “Libi Bamizrach V’Ani B’sof Hamaarav”. Again, it is a strange thing to use the words, thought, and meaning written by a gadol of 800 years ago in a conscious display of secular anti religious zeal.
In fact, I will go further. This deliberate misinterpretation and misrepresentation is a corruption of reality. It is a fatuous lie, a club to beat those you don’t agree with over the head with. It is a dishonest tactic that shames its users. It demonstrates a departure from fact, logic, and rational discourse.
Even if you don’t share my perspective on Israel (which is fine, I don’t expect everyone to. Unlike some here, I actually believe that people can have differing opinions on matters of hashkafa without being labeled as krum, reform, apikorsim) there is no justification for falsehood.
There are many ways to show Hakaras HaTov to America w/o singing a song. According to your logic, every workplace and workday should start with a song?? Do your childrens’ school say this every day?
The various speakers (even Rabbonim) mentioned America and thanked the state and all local enforcement on hand many times for this event.
Instead of having HaTikvah, they had Rav Lau speak to recognize Israel. Or better to sing a song?
Or maybe they should have served Turkey at the Siyum HaShas? That’s the national food of thanks!
How much nonsense can people spew and then darshan over and over?? What, we ran out of ways to solve the shidduch crisis? 🙂
Avi K -“Health, one cannot be a complete Jew in the Lands of Tuma (as per Chazal). Ramban even says that the mitzvot Jews do do there are just to keep from getting rusty.”
Here you go with your mind games again. Why don’t you just admit you were wrong?
You posted the most appropriate thing for Jewish events is “Hatikva.”
And I posted – “but what does Zionism have to do with Jewish events? Yes, in the US many Jewish schools who were pro the Medina sang these Zionist songs at their events. But to claim that it’s the most appropriate for Jewish events is ludicrous. Are you saying you can’t be a Good Jew outside of Israel if you aren’t a Zionist?”
You didn’t answer my question – why is “Hatikva” appropriate for Jewish events?!?!
I don’t care how much you love the Israeli gov., but what does the Medina’s national anthem have to do with Judaism outside of Israel?!?!?
yichusdik -“I thank Him every day for beginning the process of the Geulah.”
How are you so sure that it’s the beginning of the Geulah?
Are you a Novi?
“It is a dishonest tactic that shames its users.”
If you’re talking about me, I didn’t intend to shame anybody (for the sake of shaming), and if I did I apologize, and I definitely wasn’t employing tactics. I was responding to Sam’s interpretation (which, what do you expect, it’s apikursus), not mine. And with that, I have to say that I don’t only want to defend myself, but accuse you of misjudging.
I didn’t say anyone was an apikorus chas vishalom, just that they don’t properly recognize it. I said krum because in my opinion it was surprising that Sam, who is often erudite and accurate, was seemingly way off, which I suspect had to do with an unfortunate bias.
“I thank Hakodosh Boruch Hu every day for the gift of renewing Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisroel.”
Very nice. I think many anti-Zionists will agree that Hashem did miracles with us.
ditto what Health said.
“The “Tikva” of two thousand years described by the author of the anthem is the hope and bitachon of every Jew in the last 2000 years. It is the pashut meaning of “bshuv H’ Es shivas Tziyon.””
Did the early Zionists believe that Eretz Yisroel is literally God given?
First off, I didn’t say I think it was necessary to begin the siyum with singing Hatikvah. I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but I don’t think it would be necessary, especially in Chu’l.
Health, I am not a Novi, but here are some sources for my assertion. I don’t say you must follow them, but these seem sufficient for my assertion (H/T Rav Dov Lipman)
Rabbi Akiva Eiger taught that if we succeed in growing fruit in Israel then the final geulah is imminent (as related by his student, Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, Shivat Zion, volume 2, pp. 51-52).
Meseches Megilla (17b) … the final geulah begins with the in gathering of the exiles, followed by t e flourishing of the fruits of Israel, and concludes with the arrival of the Moshiach and the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh.
Beyond this, I follow the teaching of my Rosh Yeshiva, of my Father a’h and my grandfather a’h also pointing in the same direction.
“If they would have sang the National Anthem, then some people would have expected the Israeli NA.”
Both were sung at the (much, much smaller) siyum held at Shearith Israel in Manhattan his past Monday; there is both a US flag and an Israeli flag in the main beit knesset where the event was held.
Kozov, I was saying that someone who dishonestly misrepresents Hatikva as being without spiritual reference or value from Torah sources, and who represents it as a kfirahdik tool of atheistic Torah annihilators is being dishonest, and using an out and out lie to advance their agenda. Someone who has to resort to falsehood like that shames himself, not someone else.
As for your question about the early zionists believing E’Y is God given, My Great Great Grandfather who walked for over a year to get to Eretz Yisroel in the mid-late 19th century was motivated by that. He joined the Yishuv in Yerushalayim. His descendants grew up as Torah observant Jews who love eretz yisroel and medinat yisroel.
And really, did you never learn about the Chovevei Tzion movement?
R’ Shmuel Mohilever, who learned in Volozin, and was later the Rov of Bialystock, was its founder and first president. The majority of its original followers were frum Jews. It was the beginning of the modern Zionist movement. It wasn’t until 1893 that there was a significant differentiation between frum and not frum in the movement, and they still worked together after.
BTW, good to see you back Charlie.
Chofshi= Chofshi Min Ha’mitzvos.
So many of you are sadly missing the point. It’s not about anthems or ‘mentioning’ America. The very fact that 90,000 Jews can celebrate Torah openly in a football stadium, that Jews can live a completely unhindered Orthodox Torah way of life and enforce Torah law in virtually every arena (kashrus, eruv, mikvah, yeshiva, shul, and on and on), that Jews don’t have to hide in attics fearing pogroms and attacks; speaks volumes of the gargantuan level of Hakaras Hatov that is owed, by every Jew, EQUALLY to HaKodosh Boruch Hu and to the United States of America. A vast majority of us fail to recognize and show that appreciation that should be displayed relentlessly. Every moment spent by anyone searching for and dissecting secular/Tumah/treif meanings and values in the American anthem or any other patriotic song/statement/message,is one less moment allocated to proper Hakaras Hatov. And any failure, at any level or moment in time, to portray this gratitude borders on Chilul Hashem; a pretty bad sin from what I’ve read. G-D BLESS AMERICA!
I wanted to add, for those who continue to lie and spread falsehood about Hatikva, one more obvious Torah reference, though there are several more in the extended poem.
Od lo avdah tikvatenu is a direct reference to the words of Yechezkel 37:11 Yovshu Atzmoseinu v’avda tikvosenu, to which HKBH responds that he will open their graves and bring them back to artzienu hakedosha.
One more nail in the coffin of the lie and slander being spread by dishonest people about Hatikva.
Cherrybim – If you, like your confederates feel so confident about slandering Imber’s poem, you might have thought to read THE WHOLE THING, since the anthem is only the first two stanzas.
In it you will find a few more references that completely destroy your hypothesis. Imber wrote in the 8th stanza “ki od yerachmeinu keyl zoeim”, that HKBH, though wrathful would still have mercy on us, and in the 10th stanza “Rofecha Hashem, Chochmat Levavo” HKBH is your (the Jewish people’s) healer, the wisdom of your heart.
Why on earth would there be so many references to Hashem and Jewish themes in an anthem meant as a tool for atheist zionist annihilators of Torah?
Oh. yeah. Because its NOT!
THe chofshi min hamitzvos is an interjection done to slander the writer and users of the anthem. Please provide a source where Imber says that this is what he means – and considering all of the other references above, that would be impossible, because of the overwhelming evidence from his own words in the rest of the poem that it is a LIE.
yichusdik: Imber didn’t put chofshi in it. The Israeli government added it in later. So even if Imber wasn’t an apikorus, the authors of the current anthem, with their altercation, are.
Imber was a boorish drunk, hardly the role model for Yidden anywhere.
SHlishi, you are right about that line. and here is the official reason for the current wording, from the WZO and the Jewish Agency who made the change.
“When the Jewish people pray their eyes, hearts and prayers are directed toward Israel and Jerusalem. For many long painful years, the land of Israel was in the hands of foreigners. The Jews who lived in Palestine were not free. Yet their hope for freedom and independence never died. The second stanza of the Hatikva recalls the undying hope of Jews through the generation, Jews who lived in other countries and Jews who had remained in Palestine.”
Oh, yeah, lots of apikorsus there.
Also, when Imber wrote, there were few Jews in Israel. When the change was made, there was a substantial Jewish settlement, so going from “lashuv El Eretz Avotenu” for those who werent there, to Lihyot am chofshi for those who were, is a reasonable update.
Cherrybim, who said he was a role model? I just gave a number of proofs that the slander about the anthem and the poem was a lie, and you are building a straw man about his character. Poor debating skills.
yichusdik -“Rabbi Akiva Eiger taught that if we succeed in growing fruit in Israel then the final geulah is imminent (as related by his student, Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, Shivat Zion, volume 2, pp. 51-52).”
This means without irrigation and this isn’t how most things grow in EY.
“Meseches Megilla (17b) … the final geulah begins with the in gathering of the exiles, followed by t e flourishing of the fruits of Israel, and concludes with the arrival of the Moshiach and the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh.”
And acc. to most Gedolim, this hasn’t happenned yet!
If these statements are accurate, then most Gedolim did Not agree with them!
I repeat – acc. to most Gedolim this hasn’t happenned yet!
Perhaps you should rethink your stance that the Medina is the Start of the Geula?!?!
Health,
1. Who says without irrigation? Who do you think gave the knowledge?
2. I haven’t counted seforim but my impression is that most gedolim do agree with them.
3. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim 12:1that national independence is the beginning of the Geula.
Avi K –
It’s funny how you keep evading my question!
“Health,
1. Who says without irrigation? Who do you think gave the knowledge?”
Common sense. Hashem gave the knowledge to irrigate to e/o – has nothing to do with the Geulah. Eretz Zehav Cholov Oodvash is Not with irrigation.
“2. I haven’t counted seforim but my impression is that most gedolim do agree with them.”
Well start counting. Almost all Gedolim were against the Medina.
They even once listed the names here in the CR. But keep pretending there are more for, than against!
“3. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim 12:1that national independence is the beginning of the Geula.”
Yep. Now the Rambam was for the Medina.
Avi K- You call this government a change in Shibud Malchiyus just because Jews are in charge?! That is astounding!
Health,
1. Which question am I allegedly evading?
2. Who says it isn’t? Similarly “eagle’s wings” = airplanes.
3. “Almost”! The Communists used to hold meetings in tiny rooms and report that there was standing room only.
4. Also Ramban. He says explicitly that there is a Tora obligation to conquer EY in our time.
“The medina was the start of the geula”
– true. So was the holocaust. It doesn’t mean we should celebrate it. The building of the medina by the atheist zionists was probably more spiritually destructive to klall Yisrael than anything in the past 100 years. Furthermore, it was assur to establish the state, and it’s very bedi’eved. Don’t get me wrong, I hate Neturei Karta, they’re totally evil. De facto, Israel exists and we must support it to protect our interests, but we shouldn’t love governments that are rooted in anything but the Derech Hashem. Neither Israel nor the USA are that. We say thank you, but we don’t sing their songs of praise and become nationalists like their godless masses. This whole thread is a non-issue. Anyone with any semblance of a Yeshiva education realizes that trying to argue this is daas Torah is completely baseless and absurd.
Health, you derided my perspective by asking “How are you so sure that it’s the beginning of the Geulah? Are you a Novi?”
I gave multiple sources from gemoro and achronim and more current authorities. There are many many more, and having already given these clear references, if you want more, go find them yourself. I answered your question.
But that’s not good enough.
With nothing but your own supposition and interpretation, and your “most gedolim” broken record assertion, you dismiss clear and valid reasons for my belief. Note – we’re not going to know exactly who is right until the geulah moves into its next stages, but you asked me how I’m so sure. I am because of my mesorah and because of these and other sources. They don’t work for you? Its your loss. But your question was answered.
Health: You’re really getting desperate! Common sense that it meant without irrigation? Seriously?
You say almost all gedolim were against the medinah. I don’t think it’s true. R’ Frank, R’ Sorotzkin, and R’ SZ Auerbach zt”l were 3 of the biggest Rabbonim of their generations. R’ SZ was considered the posek hador of Eretz Yisroel (together with R’ Moshe zt”l who was his counterpart in America). You have no problem quoting R’ Elyashiv zt”l even as a daas yochid when it suits you because he was the gadol hador, but when a previous gadol says something you don’t like, you’ll say that other argue on him? You’re such a hypocrite.
Face facts. Many major Rabbonim held that the founding of the state of Israel was a sign of the beginning of the geulah. You don’t like it? Most people really don’t care. But maybe, just maybe, if you just disagreed respectfully instead of showing hatred towards Zionists, Mashiach would come sooner.
Rav Shlomo Zalman and the other gedolim quoted above were against the establishment of the medina. I love how some people take gefdolim and twist their words to mean the opposite of their own well known positions.
Grew up in the Bronx, and studied at Bais Yaakov Bais Miriam which was under Rav Yeruchem Gorelik Z’TL, and the Hebrew Menahel was Rabbi Shimshon Brodsky Z’TL. We said each day, “I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag”, and sang, “The Star Spangled Banner”. We sang Hatikvah at the graduations, but, changed the word CHOFSHI to AM TORAH.
In England, at heimishe weddings there is no mention of the Queen and the National Anthem is not sung. It is only sung at Modern Orthodox weddings. The tefillah for all the Royal Family is said in our heimishe shul by the Rav Shilita, but, not each person individually mentioned, and also one for all the chayalim to return safely.
Good to see Charlie Hall back.
Have a gut, gezunt, gebenched Chodesh Elul and a gut Shabbos!
Curiosity,
1. It is an obligation to establish a state as stated explicitly by Ramban in his Sefer HaMitzvot.
2. Rav Soloveichik says that its establishment SAVED the Jewish people in the national depression that followed the Holocaust (see Kol Dodi Dofek).
Avi K -“Health,
1. Which question am I allegedly evading?”
From above: “You didn’t answer my question – why is “Hatikva” appropriate for Jewish events?!?!”
“2. Who says it isn’t?”
Almost every Godol!
yichusdik -“I gave multiple sources from gemoro and achronim and more current authorities. There are many many more, and having already given these clear references, if you want more, go find them yourself. I answered your question.
But that’s not good enough.”
The reason it’s not good enough because they aren’t proofs, only in the eyes of the Zionists. Perhaps you should switch over to the Truthful Side?
Feif Un -“Health: You’re really getting desperate! Common sense that it meant without irrigation? Seriously?”
Is “common sense” such a foreign subject to you?
Tell me something, in the US they use irrigation to grow crops, correct? And presumably they are doing this because otherwise the crops wouldn’t grow, correct? It costs the farmer a lot of money -so he wouldn’t do it unless it was necessary. Now this farmer, a Xtian, who can’t wait until his so-called Messiah makes a second coming, decides that since his crops are growing because of irrigation – that this is a sign from Heaven that he is about to reappear. Would you consider this guy off the wall or completely sane?
Well, this is exactly what the Zionists are doing!
“I am because of my mesorah and because of these and other sources.”
I hope also misvara (meaning look into the svoro of the other side). I think thats what Health is trying to say (though maybe it would be better in other words).
Health: The crops would grow without irrigation, as long as there was water supplied. Irrigation is simply an easy way to supply water.
Before the Jews regained control of Israel, there was nothing growing there. The arabs had turned it into a wasteland. Now the land is thriving. Why is it common sense to say that it means without irrigation? Do you have a source other than your own (twisted) common sense? Maybe R’ Yoel said it?
I’m also wondering how you will twist the nevuah of Od yeshvu zkenim u’zkenos b’rchovos Yerushalayim. What does that mean? Sitting without chairs? Or maybe only sitting on gold-plated thrones? Because it seems to me (via common sense) that the nevuah has been fulfilled.
And on that topic: In Yad V’shem, when you come to the end of the tunnel, there is a room about the immigration to Israel. In that room, they play Hatikva being sung by kids in pre-war Europe. You will notice a couple of differences in the words, which I find a bit telling. (I have on idea as to the origins of the two versions, or which one predates which.)
It goes:
??? ?? ???? ???????
????? ??????
???? ???? ???????
???? ????, ??? ?? ???
Notice the three changes which are one. This other version is referring to a desire to return to Israel, to our ancestral homeland where King David established his kingdom. The desire is to live there as a people.
The currently used version is:
??? ?? ???? ???????
????? ???? ?????
????? ?? ???? ???????
???? ???? ???????
See, the focus of the desire here is to be an independent nation. It is a nationalistic desire.
I happen to find the hatikva very emotional, but I related much more to the desire for eretz yisroel than for the desire for independent rule. (Don’t get me wrong, I have plenty of desire for independence, it is just not nearly as strong as my desire for eretz yisroel.)
Health: Maybe it’s because even with farmers attempting to irrigate it, Eretz Yisrael laid barren for almost 2000 years?
Fron the closed topic of “Jerusalem is not for sale.”
“shlishi
Dovid – Partial list of gedolim against (the Medina):
R. Yoel Teitelbaum, R. Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, R. Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchek, R. Avraham Yeshayahu Karelitz, R. Yitzchok Dov Koppleman, R. Michoel Dov Weissmandl, R. Ahron Kotler, R. Mordechai Gifter, R. Elya Svei, R. Baruch Kaplan, R. Amram Blau, R. Avigdor Miller, R. Yitzchok Hutner, R. Dovid Friedman (Karlin), R. Meir Smika (Dvinsk), R. Yosef Roizen, R. Dovid Freund, R. Chaim Soloveitchek (Brisk), The Chofetz Chaim, R. Shaul Broch, R. Yissoschor Dov (Belze Rebbe), R. Chaim Ozer Grozinski, R. Chaim Elozar Shapiro.
Feif Un -“Health: The crops would grow without irrigation, as long as there was water supplied. Irrigation is simply an easy way to supply water.
Before the Jews regained control of Israel, there was nothing growing there. The arabs had turned it into a wasteland. Now the land is thriving. Why is it common sense to say that it means without irrigation? Do you have a source other than your own (twisted) common sense?”
Let’s see -common sense tells me if there isn’t a water supply and nothing grows and then you irrigate the land like they did in EY and something grows -this isn’t a Miracle -it’s called Teva!
“Maybe R’ Yoel said it?”
I wouldn’t know – I’m not Satmer. Perhaps you can ask him.
Sam2 -“Health: Maybe it’s because even with farmers attempting to irrigate it, Eretz Yisrael laid barren for almost 2000 years?”
No, there was no infrastructure for irrigation. That’s one thing the State of Israel did – they put in an irrigation system.
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