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The orthodox community is a large one, and extends from the people like Rabbi Breuer’s disciples who allowed handshaking between men and women after davening all the way through to those who walk on different sides of the street. Lets not censor people. Much worse things are seen on the streets of Boro Park and Lakewood.
Rabbi Breuer never permitted handshaking between men and women after davening.
nisht: Maybe 5th, maybe 7th. Somewhere in the 11-13 years old range.
zahavasdad- I get that. I really do, but….
We must hold ourselves to certain standards. If you REALLY DO care about not having your picture on the internet and want to hold to certain standards you WILL do some sort of hishtadlus on your end so it won’t happen.
You’ll find a photographer who doesn’t use your picture for commercial purposes, you will let your friend know she may put AS many pictures of HER up online but you do not want any pictures of you online.
Would you let your kids play with _____ who you know shows your kids or brings them to places you don’t want them going?! NO! You would perhaps let them play in your own home where you may watch them but you care enough to make bounderies.
Its untzinuyusdic for any picture of a woman to be online. Do you care enough to do something on your part for your own ruchniyus standards? That is the real question here.
People aren’t hard hearted creatures. If you let them know they may share their joy with words on social media versus pictures or maybe even a picture of the cake with their names on it or a sign with their names on it they will do it because they understand that this is someone you would like. After all, it’s your l’chaim.
I’d put up a sign by mine letting everyone know. Because I care enough about my tzniyus to not let other people loosen my standards.
Its untzinuyusdic for any picture of a woman to be online. Do you care enough to do something on your part for your own ruchniyus standards?
Rebbetizen Jungreis has a picture of herself on her Hineni website.
Zahavasdad- I shoud of added in my personal opinion. Everyone has different standards. The idea is don’t complain about your standards not being kept if you do zero hishtadlus on your part to keep them.
Your initial statement does create a problem for many
Many say what you said or similar and make it seem like Halacha and you made it seem as much.
When people find out that its NOT halcha , thats its either a chumra or someones personal opinion they begin to question other things people said
When its a Rebbe or Morah who says such a thing and the girls find out its not truth, they begind to think everything is false and question everything they said leading the road to OTD
and you made it seem as much.
No she didn’t. She said it’s untzniyusdik, she didn’t say it says it in Shulchan Aruch. Your rant is misplaced
zahavasdad- as a teenage girl I think I know what things should be said to impressinable girls my age. So we should keep no chumras because it might make other people question the Torah?
Most people are aware from their late teens that every is on their own level. I really do think its untziyusdik. I dont understand why you need a picture on the web. To prove you are alive? There is a halacha that a man can’t have enjoyment from even the pinkie nail of a woman and you will put a full body picture of yourself up for all to stare at? Even if one is not looking for hana’a, they may happen to find it.
I think teachers and such other people should say “In my house, or in the school we do ____” and then continue explaing the reason. People only get frustrated about it all if no one will explain it to them.
It’s like going the extra mile, but no one will tell you what reward you get out of it, so why would you do it.
All in all it’s a fine line and this thread wasn’t made to talk about it.
DaasYochid is right, but then again is never says explicitly in the kitzur women must wear socks, yet it is hinted and rabanim have proved it time and time again and girls in many places around the world still call it a “chumra”. The is a question even what each pwerson considers a chumra and halacha.
Of course putting pictures on the web is technically permitted but it’s setting yourself up for a waste of time, and a big possibility or causing aveiros. Plus it’s quoted many times in many seferim that a woman should be private, stay in the house, etc. I’m sure if the internet was around back then those sefarim would never have permitted such usage of it for a waste of time of showing off yourself on social media.
zahavasdad- I do hear your point as I have younger sisters and they do come home telling me of such things, and they have begun to wonder what is halacha, chumra, etc.
It’s a fine line. But I didn’t think there would be any kids here. I assumed most people are adults here whom can reason and understand each to his own like my classmates.
Unfortunately the idea you described goes on in almost every bais yaakov these days.
Speaking of tznius and weddings… The Torah Times (a weekly advertising publication based in Brooklyn) has a listing of upcoming chasunas. Apparently people send in invitations and the publication gleans the particulars of the wedding. I find it interesting that it lists the chasan as “Ploni ben Ploni,” but the kallah is just “bas Ploni.” I’ve never seen a wedding invitation that doesn’t list the kallah’s first name, but maybe I travel in the wrong circles. I understand the idea of not publishing photographs of women, but are there people who consider publishing the first name of a kallah to be a breach of tznius?
Yehuda, there’s a yiddishe minhag among many not to even call their own wife by her name when non-immediate family members are present.
Its untzinuyusdic for any picture of a woman to be online.
Why do you say that? And if the reason is because you don’t want men to see you, why do you not wear a Burqa, or better yet, not step outside, ever?
Just curious.
Rambam says a woman shouldn’t go outside more than once or twice a month. Shulchan Aruch paskens women shouldn’t go outside too much.
Why do Rambam and the Mechaber say that?
I find it interesting that it lists the chasan as “Ploni ben Ploni,” but the kallah is just “bas Ploni.” I’ve never seen a wedding invitation that doesn’t list the kallah’s first name, but maybe I travel in the wrong circles.
Obviously. Saying “Bas Ploni” re-enforces the correct mindset in Klal Yisroel, that Noshim’s worth only exists as linked to a male.
Joe – writing the word W-I-*-E is NOT Tzanuah. Please use the term “Ishto” (as in “VaYelech Manoach Acheri Ishto”) instead.
gavra: there’s a difference between living than putting a picture of yourself for anyone to stare at in the biggest public forum in the world. Forget the part about how it’s not too utzniyusdic for anyone to share their entire life with the world. And it all has no purpose and a waste of time.
Just like women don’t speak in front of crowds of men, putting your picture online in basically putting a one dimensional part of yourself up for all men to see.
On the other hand, living in not condemned in the frum community. It is not my fault if I am shopping and there are a bunch of men staring at me. Though it would be a problem if I just stood there in front of a shul while everyone came out and there were no other women around.
I do not endorse burkas and other such clothing.I just think it’s a bit like showing off. “Here everyone! This is what I look like! I will let every man in the world be able to see picture of me and my life and he can download them, stare at them, or stalk me as much as he pleases!”
You put pictures of women online, why? Give me a reason that it should be okay
“Rambam says a woman shouldn’t go outside more than once or twice a month.”
Joseph,
Does your isha go outside more than once or twice a month? How is “too much” defined in your home? I saw your other post about regulating who your children are friends with.
You also recently posted a request for a source that a person may not steal to support his Torah learning.
It’s rather disturbing to read what you believe literally and without question vs. what you need quoted chapter and verse. You have written about your relationship with various Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva but your posts seem to indicate otherwise.
Are you a troll who wants to make those who take Torah seriously look bad or do you need counseling?
Don’t be a nitwit, Phil. I asked for a source for an assertion of permissible stealing to prevent starvation. The poster happened to lump that quote together with learning. And all I did was cite the S”A and Rambam and ask why the Mechaber and Rambam paskened as such, above. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Rambam. If you want to let your children go to homes with TVs, I don’t stand in your way. Perhaps your children are the ones with the TVs and unfiltered internet.
Joseph,
“Nitwit”? I must have really hit a nerve if you’re resorting to pejoratives!
We do not determine the homes our children visit based primarily upon whether they have TV or unfiltered internet (which we do not). We do so based primarily upon our familiarity with the parents and the home they have built. There are homes that have TV with parents who genuinely respect the fact that we don’t and keep it off. There are homes that don’t have TV which we will never let our children visit.
You seem to be focused on “regulating” your children. In reality, the most effective method of parenting is to be the kind of person you want your children to emulate. Regardless, you mentioned the Rambam and Mechaber and still didn’t answer the question. How often do you let your isha out of the house? Do you also regulate her?
Shopping: If you want to claim something is improper, the onus is on you. I would answer your question by saying that sometimes pictures of people help situations. It’s much easier to feel the Simcha of an engagement if you see a smiling and happy Chassan and Kallah than if it’s just names on a page. Just like a picture adds more to an obituary than the words ever would. Why do newspapers put pictures of relevant people on a story? They don’t just put pretty women to be stared at. They put people who are relevant and add to the ethos of the story (e.g. a mugshot of a criminal or a sad picture of a kid who R”L was in a tragedy and such). Putting up a picture for the purpose of being stared at does not seem like a good thing at all. Putting up a picture of a smiling Kallah so that you can feel extra happiness at her engagement does sound like a good thing to me, though.
If one does not feel that sense of tznuis, the inner core of a true Bas Yisroel there’s nothing to explain, argue, debate. No, it’s not written anywhere on a black on white. It’s in the essence of a Jewish (???????) Bas Melech. Our princess are of bigger stuff than the pruste ogle things plastered all over town, newspapers and posters in the Goyeshe velt. And the more they’re enclosed, protected, bashitzed, the more they shine!! A Kalla;s inner beauty is reserved for her someone special. Exclusively.
And might I remind peoplach, we don’t pasken ???? ??????.. ??? ?????, Gemarah immediately says Halacha is not so.
A parents duty in parenting is to regulate their children. A child cannot regulate himself nor can a child be unregulated. Rambam and the SA clearly and directly state that it is the husband’s duty to regulate his wife and daughters modesty obligations, including saying so regarding the aforementioned halacha that a woman’s place is at home. Do you have any complaints against the Rambam and the Mechaber in this regard or do you consider their published halachic rulings to be 15th century artifacts?
A home built on TV consumption is no home and parents who permit their children to go where they can consume TV or even consume the values of other children who have been influenced by TV, put their children’s spiritual welfare at great risk.
LF: You said it like it is.
Sam2, why don’t you go to the actual engagments and weddings themselves? Do you really feel such long term simcha after seeing a picture of someone you don’t know all too well? We need to get things back in our hearts. Just by hearing about the simcha you should feel happy! Why do you have to see a picture?
And if you are close enough to the person you will go or be sent a picture privately. I will definetly be sending a few pictures through email to certain people who could not come telling them to delete it or not forward it to anyone afterwards.
I do beleive it is not proper but it’s not an aveirah. I think it goes against all we know. We are celebrating 2 souls getting together and you want to plaster pictures up of their bodies? And seeing that will give your true simcha?
Phil: It all has to do with sensitivity. Even if the TV is off, what do they talk about? What do the kids talk about? What shows up when they play “house” or “pretend”? What new ideas will your kids come home knowing. I don”tunderstand how anyone could be 100 spiritualy oriented with a TV. Everything on there is shmutz. Perhaps we have a different outlook here in ISRAEL, but a TV is just not acceptable.
The only time I would be okay with it if someone has it because they grew up that way, or are having a hard time spiritually but are working hard to grow spiritually so one day they can throw it out.
Of course there are people less frum by having a TV, and the rest of lives show they cut corners too such as not wearing socks, wearings hair out etc. Obviously I cannot tell such people it is wrong since it’s not my place and I’m sure they are doing their best.
But for a frum erliche yid, a TV is not something we should have or look at. Period.
shopping: Because we’re human beings. We don’t see souls. Random names of people we don’t know aren’t particularly meaningful. Pictures are, because it lets us understand the people better. That’s just how we work.
Also, I find it very ironic that your choice of “cutting corners” is “not wearing socks”.
Sam2, that’s what I see from where I come from. I understand were human beings and davka because that we shouldn’t have pictures of women online. Maybe you will get happy to see the smiling kallah and chassan, but that picture may excite others in a different way.
Plus a kallah belongs to her chosson. I don’t know…it’s just not good to posting pictures online at all in my opinion.
Joseph,
I’d rather send my kids to a home with a TV that’s off where there is peace and respect than to one with no TV where there is acrimony and disrespect.
If your primary method for parenting is regulation it’s not going to work for very long. I have no problem with the Rambam and Mechaber but you still didn’t answer the question about how often you let your isha out. Do you also beat her with a stick if you feel she’s not accepting your regulations? I’m sure you’re well versed in that Rambam also. Why did the Rambam write it if we’re not supposed to do so nowadays?
Someone such as yourself who is always making blanket pronouncements and judgements on entire groups of people he never met must be on a very high madrega indeed. Please, share with us the hanhagos you use to guide your home, which you’ve learned from the Gedolim you are so close to.
Always be careful when instituting Chumras without gedoli consent. As we know from the first chumra instituted, they can backfire
Sam2, that’s what I see from where I come from. I understand were human beings and davka because that we shouldn’t have pictures of women online. Maybe you will get happy to see the smiling kallah and chassan, but that picture may excite others in a different way.
Plus a kallah belongs to her chosson. I don’t know…it’s just not good to posting pictures online at all in my opinion.
You should not be sending pictures to friends either (unless perhaps you belong to your friends?). In fact, you should not be taking digital pictures at all. Haven’t we learned anything from the Dor Yeshorim video?
Once it is out of your hands, anything can happen, and you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Instead of just complaining I decided to start an ad free site that will contain Simchas, putting on the simcha and location only. However, it can only be useful if everyone here spreads the word to their friends, so that I can get the information to post on to it. Google “kosher simchas 613” and you will see the site and how to spread the word so you can have your simcha posted.
Phil, please don’t invent halachas and then attribute them to the heilige Rambam. Rambam, nowhere no how, permits beating a spouse with a stick or otherwise. If you can’t understand a Rambam ask someone. Rambam says only a beis din can use a stick to enforce people carry out their duties.
Again, with that same mantra, over and over again. That seems to be the main calling of some community. “Careful with chumrus. Make sure to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING possible permitted by any standard, and rabbi any deah. Do not try to elevate yourself. And.. SEE WHAT HAPPEND BY THE FIRST CHUMRA!”
That should really be enough to frighten anyone…
FYI ?????? ???? is written explicitly in the Torah. ?? ???? ???… that’s the limit (actually right before, ???? ?????..)
KosherSimchas,
To be truly kosher according to everyone, please make sure to never allow the names of girls or women to be posted. Only allow the terms, “daughter of ploni”, “wife of ploni”, etc.
Phil – The Prusta American terms WI*E and D*UGHT*R should not be used either. Lashon HaKodesh is a Magen from Arayos, and is spoken by Chazal to be a Lashon Naki that doesn’t have Prusta language. As such, only the terms “Eishes” and “Bas” should be used.
Joseph,
As you know, the Rambam doesn’t say that Beis Din must hit the wife.
You still didn’t answer the questions. How often do you let your isha out of the house? How often do you beat her?
Little Froggie – So you are Modah to me that Noshim should wear Burqas the one or two times a month they go out to visit their parents. After all, a Bas Yisroel who is a Bas Melech should not be less Tzanuah than a Muslim!, and ?????? ???? is written explicitly in the Torah, we need to create more Gedarim from Arayos.
Phil, actually Rambam very much does say only beis din has that right and not the spouse.
GAW, we do the ??? ?? ???, mentioned in Gitten.
Nope, the Rambam says no such thing.
You still didn’t answer the questions. Scared? For good reasons.
And I don’t think there’s an Issur NOT to post your (woman) pictue for all to see, ogle, gaze.
And maybe, just maybe, the Gemarah paskens that ???? ?????? ???? ???..
And maybe, just maybe, a tzanua Bas Melech, with true feelings of Kedusha, inner holiness and modesty, wants to avoid having others gaze at her picture for eternity.
GAW, we do the ??? ?? ???, mentioned in Gitten.
Can you expand on this point? I don’t know what you mean or to which Gemorah you are referring.
Pulling my leg or for real?!?
Gemarah Gitten 90a,
??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????
Phil, read the Rambam carefully and slowly. Notice the plural language. A husband is singular. A beis din is plural. And you can also read the many meforshim on the Rambam who confirm exactly this point.
And that is the answer, mate. It is against halacha according to the Rambam, the Mechaber and everyone else, to strike a spouse.
Joseph,
As I’m sure you know, a number of Rishonim explicitly write that the Rambam is referring to the husband hitting his wife, not to Beis Din.
Now, please answer both questions. How often do you let your isha out of the house? How often do you beat her?
Gemarah Gitten 90a,
??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????
You mean
??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??????
So you agree! The Isha will be allowed to go out once or twice a month (as per the Rambam) to visit the parents or other relatives, wearing a Burqa, so that the Isha’s body or face doesn’t end up in a picture on the internet for men to ogle.
If that is not what you were referring to, please explain.
ZD – Rebbetzin Jungreis is Modern Orthodox. Not a great example.
A better question might be why Rebbitzen Batsheva Kaniefsky insisted on pictures of women in her Artscroll biography (which everyone can look at and ogle). Then again, Rebbitzen Batsheva Kaniefsky may also be Modern Orthodox, you can’t be sure.
Im sure Rav Ovadiah Yosef knew the Rambam and S’A too and he taught classes at Charedi college run by his “MO” daughter Adina bar Shalom
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