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right i agree they are! But even if someone doesnt understand another, they can instead approach it from the other starting point: choose not to judge and therefore come to accept them for who they are. Im a big pusher of being dan lkaf zchus, and of not judging others, expecially others you dont know or dont know about, and i rly believe not looking to judge others, accepting them for who they are whether we agree or disagree with their approach, would remove so much of the ‘politics’ and sinas chinam among sections of klal yisrael
OURtorah:
Thanks again.
I’m not sure how much clearer I could have been that I am not judging anyone, but I’ll try again.
I also agree that a Zionist could be a tinok sheNishba just as could anyone else. But this is irrelevant.
As I’ve said before, there is a difference between “not judging someone” and making kosher what they are doing.
Put simply, someone who worships an idol, no matter how much you like them and no matter what their background is, has just done a severe sin. While they may not know any better or have some other reason for doing so, and might, therefore deserve the benefit of the doubt (Hashem certainly knows everything, including his background, intention, etc.), there is no dispute that idolatry is idolatry and is forbidden.
So to, with Zionism (or any other aveira, for that matter), a person’s upbringing and education is only relevant as regarding motives, schar/viOnesh, etc. But this is all irrelevant to the definition of Zionism. Zionism is idolatry and shmad. Period. There is no real dispute about this.
Given the name of this particular forum, I believe it is very appropriate to delineate where Zionism stands vis a vis the Torah.
As I said, I am not judging anyone, but one has nothing to do with the other.
Rav Elchonon, as I quoted before, wrote in ikvisa diMishicha that Nationalism and, lihavdil, Judaism is simply A”Z and, lihavdil, Judaism mixed together. Rav Chaim Brisker held similarly and even Rabbi JB Soloveichik publicly confirmed this view of Rav Chaim.
“Not judging” does not mean that Avoda Zara can, CH”V, be considered legitimate by observant Jews just as the baal and any other idol is correctly and absolutely not considered, CH”V, a legitimate Torah path. Zionism is indisputably A”Z and shmad.
OURTorah, again, thanks.
I fail to see how you concluded I am missing “a small bit” of Ahavas Chinam, based on my words here, but that’s okay…
As I mentioned before, this site is called “Yeshiva World”. So, just as on a “Mizrachi World”, I would expect to see Rabbi Kook almost deified, I would similarly expect to see a “Yeshiva” perspective on YWN, which includes stating the facts of Zionism just as they are.
Of course, for the same reason, I likely would not post (in any manner) on a “Mizrachi World”, because I would assume my comments would be universally rejected there due to the conflict between those comments and their theology.
Again, I don’t believe I have demonstrated any “intolerance” of anyone. So nobody should be “turned off” by anyone or anything here.
But I do appreciate your reminder that baalei teshuva and others who have been raised differently may visit the site.
But because of the educated and observant readership of this site, I feel my direct approach with “Yeshiva World” people in mind is an appropriate approach to all readers.
If anyone has a better way, I’d be happy to hear it.
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