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can someone please explain to me the origin of saying the hebrew letter taf as saf? Ex: Keser instead of Keter? Thanks!!!
Because many European languages don’t have a “th” sound as in “thin” so “th” erroneously became “s” as native speakers of these European languages couldn’t pronounce a “th”.
Hence that many old English Chumoshim still transliterate with “th” as in “Sabbath” and “Emeth”.
Absence verses presence of a Dogesh should be the norm to invoke a different pronunciation as with a “Beis/Veis” and as with a “Kaf/Chaf” and as with “Peh/Feh”.
We want it to be a sof for all tough
And how did the (what we call) Veis get the sound of a Vav?
I veis nisht
The question is the opposite…how did the sound of the waw become the sound of the veis…
The answer is the same.
Think like this:
Old Yiddish Man: Du reddin ‘iddish?
Young American Boy: Yu
Old Yiddish Man: Vat tyme it iz?
Every one of the letters ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ? has two pronunciations – one when it has a Dagesh (dot in the middle), and one without. We Ashkenazim have only retained the two different pronunciations for Beis/Veis, Kaf/Chof, Pei/Fei, and Taf/Saf. Teimanim still have Gimel (“g” as in giant)/ Rimel (rolled “r” like the Israeli Reish, which is itself incorrect) and Daled/Dthaled. As stated above, the correct “soft” Tav is Thav (as if with a lisp), but in certain Ashkenazi countries it became an “s”. Conversely, many Sefardim dropped this pronunciation altogether and retained only the “Tav”, similar to what happened with the Gimel and Daled. Ben Yehudah adopted the Sefardic pronunciation when he officially formulated Ivrit, probably so that he Sefardim living in E”Y would accept it.
It was probably a ‘th” at one time based both on how the Temanim pronounce it, and more importantly, on how the Talmud transliterates words from other languages. All languages tend to evolve over time, which is why a lot of English words are “mispronounced”, for example not saying the final “e” in “come”, and totally mauling words such as “light” (which should be prounced the same as the Yiddish “licht”).
Did you know that in english the word used to be “thou”, and “y” was used to mark a “th” sound? Thou can still see sometimes old style shops which call themselves “ye olde shoppe” to be read “the old shop”
The “e” in “come” was never pronounced; it is an old form of spelling that survived for some words and not for others.
The Reish also can have a Dagesh and it is anyone’s guess what it is supposed to mean. The Samach and Sin are interchangeable, wwhich mean that they were meant to sound alike. The Tes and Tav don’t change. Perhaps there’s a difference there, too.
The Vav is only W at the beginning of a word when it is a Melupum. It is most probably the Veis that was changed. It was like the Spanish soft B, like blowing through a B sound.
Quf and Caf aren’t either the same. It seems like the Quf was similar to the C, while both went different directions through the years. We pronounce Ocean with a Sh sound but the Gemara spells it Uqyanus. Ceaser is Qaser. Most probably the Quf was like the second C in concerto, but from the back of the mouth and not the way we pronounce Ch.
So, does that mean when we layn Torah or megillah, we might be mispronouncing things that are not permitted to be said incorrectly?
this is so interesting. In high school, i was friendly with a couple of israeli’s and sephardim and, being the only ashkenaz, had a hard time convincing them that the tav and sav are 2 different letter and different sounds.
Can anyone explain why a) sephardim pronounce the kumatz as a pasach? b) chassidim change around the pronunciation of a few of the nekudos?
Oomis, you’re asking an excellent question.
I think we assume that if a certain sound is consistently used to represent a particular letter or vowel, even if it’s historically inaccurate, it still halachically valid.
Does anyone get upset since virtually all Ashkenazis mispronounce “Ayin” (?)- saying it as if it was silent. And Anglo-phones tend to butcher the Ches (?) and Sefardi constantly confuse the “kamets” and the “patsach”. And what about upper-class northeasterners in the United States who pronounce “heart” the same as “hot”?
The truth is that the spoken language of Eretz Yisrael is not some invention of the zionists, or a recreation of ancient Hebrew. It’s a natural evolution that, as is highly predictable, tends to combine the Ashkenazi mistakes with the Sefardi mistakes. The syntax and grammar also can be creative as well (ever notice that most Ashkenazim put the subject before the predicate, as is done in English).
Clearly we are not pronouncing them the way they were meant to be. The Gemara says that someone whose Ayin sounds like his Aleph cannot Daven by the Amud. Who are we left with?
The Teimanim are probably the closest to the original but it’s hard to tell. Although we can pronounce many consonants and vowels that our neighbors cannot, it was not always this way, especially after many generations. And without realizing it, American English affects our pronunciations, too.
Speaking a language shapes your mouth. Every language utilize the mouth muscles in a different way. The Hungarian and Upper German squaring of the jaw while pronouncing OO ends up sounding like EE to us. Once a generation is brought up not being able to pronounce proper Ü it merged with the EE.
OUTtorah: If your accent is not what you want it to be, you can work on it. Speech lessons helped many New Yorkers escape the lower class ethnic ghettos by learning how to sounds WASP.
I tend to think one should look at what someone is saying and doing, and not be prejudiced by what he looks like or his accent.
“someone whose Ayin sounds like his Aleph cannot Daven by the Amud. Who are we left with?”
I’ve never met an Ashkenazi Jew who can pronounce the Ayin.
It should be noted that English has had many pronunciation shifts over time. Jacob Grimm, one of the brothers who wrote the famous children’s fairy tales, made a major contribution to the understanding of Indo-European languages by documenting consonant shifts that distinguish Germanic languages (including English) from other Indo-European languages; most took place before the Germanic languages were written down. For example, Latin “pater” is cognate with the modern English “father”. More recently there were vowel shifts in the late middle ages that resulted in the pronunciation of English vowels being very different from other Indo-European languages; but because English was already a written language the spelling did not change. This is most easily observed by trying to read a Middle English work such as Chaucer’s “Canterbury Tales”; the rhyming clearly shows how English used to be pronounced.
By comparison, the differences in Hebrew pronunciations are much smaller even though it is a much older language than any currently-spoken Indo-European language.
OURtorah, the historical and grammatical answer to your original question is that traditionally, Ashkenazim have pronounced the ? as “s” while Sefardim have pronounced it as “t”. When the Zionists (Ashkenazim) took over E”Y, they spoke Hebrew with a Sefardi accent. The Modern Orthodox in chu”l, as a show of kinship with the Zionists in E”Y, adopted this accent, despite it not being in accordance with their tradition.
The answer to your underlying question, though, is more subtle and complex.
I can only try to give you chizuk and tell you to stay strong in your commitment to grow.
I can’t tell you which external manifestations of your new association to keep, and which to hold off on. What I can advise you is to hold strong to the ikkarim. I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to perform kubyd av v’em properly, for example. Hopefully, though, if you stay strong, they will see your sincerity and support you.
Hatzlocha. I’m davening for you.
DY: Megillah isn’t a problem because at worst we’re Loazim B’la’az. The interesting question I’ve always had is Birchas Kohanim.
Yes, Sam, I heard that about krias Shema as well. I think what I said would even cover things which aren’t good bla’az.
I imagine some of you will not like this, so I apologize in advance and I humbly offer the following with all due respect.
I can’t think of many good reasons to change one’s mesorah, but shortchanging that mesorah just to sound like Zionists is (at least close to) avoda zara and, besides, one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard, despite that many people do so (unfortunately, due to having been misled by the avoda zara of Zionism – see Rav Elchonon HY”D and many others).
Presumably, your real mesorah is to differentiate between taf and saf. Don’t let anybody change that unless a (non-MO) LOR tells you to do so.
(I specified “non-MO” because, since Zionism is an essential tenet of the MO faith, any issue that deals with Zionism must, by definition, be handled by a non-MO Rabbi.)
If you need to make your parents happy, I would suggest a possible compromise, however, that when you speak “modern hebrew” (as in mundane conversation), as opposed to, lihavdil, lashon haKodesh (for tefillah and learning), meaning for non-divrei kodesh, you can pronounce the saf like a taf. After all, that is how “modern hebrew” is spoken and if you’re speaking that language then perhaps it is okay, at least bishas haDichak, like in your case, to speak “modern hebrew” as it is “natively” spoken (ignoring the shmad and other issues).
I would also switch back to lashon haKodesh, even during mundane conversation, when referencing any davar sheBiKedusha, but I would ask a (non-MO) LOR.
But CH”V should your davening be sullied by “modern hebrew”. Our siddur (i.e. other than the Zionist insertions) is written in lashon haKodesh, not, lihavdil, “modern hebrew”. Your davening deserves no less than your best lashon haKodesh al pi your real mesorah.
HaKatan, why do you feel the need to stick in an attack on Zionism wherever you can?
As for the rest of your post, my brother-in-law told me something he heard from R’ Elazar Meir Teitz (from Elizabeth), who is a big Zionist:
In the JEC schools, they teach Ivrit, but they also differentiate between taf and saf. My brother-in-law was once speaking with R’ Teitz, and he asked him why. R’ Teitz replied, “I know there are many reasons not to use a saf. There are proofs for it. But my father learned about saf, and his father used saf, as did his father. That is the mesorah in our community, so that is what we do!”
Congrats HaKatan, you agree with a Zionist!
DY: There were many Poskim (I believe R’ Ovadia included) that felt that Ashkenazim in E”Y should switch over the the S’fardi pronunciation because that’s the Minhag in Eretz Yisrael. I think the “Modern Orthodox” who say Taf isn’t a show of solidarity with E”Y. It’s because many members of the community became Frum in or because of a connection to E”Y and therefore spoke like E”Y. I think you’ll find that those “Modern Orthodox” people who have been Frum for 4 or more generations all say “Saf”. (Even the majority of Talmidim in “Modern” American Yeshivos in E”Y like Gush, KBY, etc. say Saf.)
Oh, and Krias Sh’ma is Ne’emeres B’kol Lashon so that’s not a ra’ayah.
OURTorah, please ask your LOR.
Defending Israel politically is not A”Z. Israel is definitely held to a “double standard”. The goyim know it, too. Since the very purpose of Zionism was and is to create a hebrew goy nation to replace Judaism, CH”V, this double-standard is, presumably, Hashem’s way of making sure the Zionists, perhaps at least the “Religious Zionists” understand “Hein am liVaddad yishkon uVaGoyim lo yischashav”.
But, CH”V, mixing Zionism into (or making it a major part of) your avodas Hashem, is a much different matter. Rav Elchonon called Nationalism mixed with religion simply Avoda Zara and religion combined. Rav Chaim Brisker, way back, called Zionism both A”Z and shmad. His son held similarly, even as and after he watched the State come into formal existence.
“Loving” Israel seems a little odd. Why would you love any country (other than, perhaps, the one in which you live)? And, of all countries, with all the terrible things that Israel and Zionists have done and still do to our people, it is completely irrational to love that particular country regardless of (or due even more so due to) their presence in Eretz Yisrael. The yaldei Tehran, Zionist shmad of the Teimanim, and the current shmad of the chareidim are mere starters. Not to mention the loss of thousands of Jews, and destruction of their families, directly due to Zionism. Hashem yiracheim.
Having said all that, I did not mean to imply that anyone, in particular, is or is not being oveid A”Z. Only Hashem is bochein kilayos vaLeiv and knows what is or is not a person’s intentions and deeds.
DaMoshe:
Why do you feel to defend this idolatry at every opportunity? You should welcome the opportunity for people to be educated about this fraud of Zionism that has been perpetrated on both our holy people and our holy Torah.
As to the Mesorah part of your story, that is commendable, indeed, and, for what it’s worth, I do agree with that.
HaKatan: I said nothing about defending Zionism in my post. All I did was ask why you are attacking it. I did not try to refute your post, or say anything else about Zionism. You’re the one who brought it into a thread about Hebrew pronunciation, not me. Obsessed much?
Sam, that alleged psak makes no sense to me. There has been an Ashkenazi yishuv in E.Y. since at least the times of the Gr”a’s talmidim, and it doesn’t seem as if they switched to Sefardi havarah.
My observation has been as I posted earlier.
OURTorah, I appreciate your remarks and suggestions.
As I mentioned before, only Hashem is “bochein kilayos”. So I am not judging anyone and I am also not speaking badly about any particular person.
But I do feel it is very important to understand these matters and, unfortunately, not even chesed and Torah, and all the wonderful things you can think of, can be used to justify Avoda Zara.
Everyone has nisyonos, and we are all human, of course. But you cannot compare someone falling prey to his Yetzer HaRa even as he knows he is wrong for doing so, versus someone who distorts and disgraces the Torah with foreign and idolatrous theology like Zionism all the while claiming that this is part of the Torah, CH”V.
In other words, if someone goes to a movie and knows he is wrong for doing so, that is the yetzer haRa having caught him, wrong as it is. But if someone goes to a movie and says the Torah permits me to do so, that is much worse than the first way. That relates to MO as well, incidentally.
Here, with Zionism, they are taking something that is Avoda Zara and then claiming that it, CH”V, is (a very big part of) Torah. That is terrible, far worse than someone falling prey to his Yetzer HaRa. Besides these (and other) great Rabbis convey in the severest way that Zionism is terribly wrong and assur.
Again, I’m not looking to bash any particular people. But do you propose that we, therefore, ignore the reality that Zionism is idolatry and shmad?
DaMoshe:
Given the OP’s post, I thought my posts were and are very appropriate and on-topic. I’m sorry this bothers you, and I apologized in advance, too.
OURTorah, I appreciate your thoughts.
Again, I want to emphasize the distinction between the reality of what is Zionism versus its adherents. The reality is that R’ Elchonon and others said that Zionism is A”Z and shmad. And Zionism has been a massive disaster for our people, Hashem Yiracheim.
Logically, therefore, no religious Jew should be infatuated with Zionism. But these misguided adherents of Zionism deserve no less respect just because they have made a (big) mistake in this belief.
So any “intolerance” you may see is directed at the idolatry and belief of Zionism, not at its misguided adherents who are perhaps to be pitied, not ch”V disrespected.
May Mashiach come soon to unify us all with the truth of “our Torah”.
DY: We could argue on M’tzius all day. I do not deny that there are people who do as you say (though it’s probably combined with a belief that Sefardi Havara is more legitimate), but I don’t know if they’re the majority in the “Modern Orthodox” community.
The P’sak doesn’t make sense to me either, but I’m pretty sure it’s in the Yabia Omer. It was well-known that R’ Ovadia thought that all Ashkenazim should switch to being S’fardim anyway, so I’m not sure why it would be surprising.
Sam, I think you for inadvertently supporting my contention. If that alleged psak is based on the notion that all Ashkenazim should switch to Sefardi minhag, it’s not very likely that any Ashkenazim ever followed it. So forget metzius; in sevara, what I said makes more sense.
Mods, I’m not sure why my last post wasn’t approved. Can you let me know so I can re-word it in an acceptable way?
You posted personal information and mentioned a topic that can easily get out of control.
If you leave out the comparison it’s fine.
Ok, fair enough (although it’s information about myself which I’ve posted here plenty of times before.)
HaKatan: The thread was created to discuss the pronunciation of certain letters, not Zionism. Hijacking a thread to discuss your views (which everyone here already knows) is not the way to go. I’m going to respond once more here, but then stop, as I don’t want the thread to go completely off the original topic.
I understand that there are Rabbonim who were/are against Zionism. However, there are some things to consider. First of all, many of the Rabbonim you quote lived before the establishment of the State of Israel. It’s very possible that their views could have changed once the state was established.
Second, there are also plenty of big Rabbonim who support Israel, and are very strong Zionists. There is clearly a machlokes between Rabbonim here. You should follow your Rabbonim, and I should follow mine. This should be done with respect, not constantly bashing those who have views which differ from yours.
Like I said, I won’t respond anymore in this thread. If you want to discuss it further, please start a new thread instead of hijacking other topics.
DY: I just read a very interesting Seforim Blog article where he quotes two of R’ Ovadia’s sons on the Ashkenazi becoming Sefardi issue. The title is R’ Shlomo Zeven, Kitniyot, R’ Judah Mintz, and More. (You might not enjoy the first half of the article, but I found that intriguing as well.)
Contrary to what someone suggested, I don’t think all MO use the Israeli/Sephardic pronunciation; some do, and some don’t.
The question of why some switched to the Israeli pronunciation is an interesting one. Some of them probably spent time in Israel and came to get used to it. I have relatives who spent time there as a child and for them, it just sounds right and the Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds annoyingly American (particularly the american R’s and putting the emphasis on the second to last rather than the last syllable). Many of those who were baalei teshuvah learned Hebrew as adults, and, let’s face it, it’s a lot easier to learn the Israeli pronunciation, since there are fewer sounds to learn.
Regardless, many people feel very strongly, for whatever reason, that their way is correct. So if it’s easy for you and makes your parents happy, why not pronounced sav’s as tav’s around them? I personally switch back and forth depending on who I’m talking to.
DaMoshe, this is not about my views, and you also missed that I specifically indicated that the Brisker Rav was in Eretz Yisrael before, during and after the State of Israel was founded. His views, and those of others, remained as they were even after the state’s founding.
The only change, for some, was tactical: whether to “work from within” the State’s politics or to avoid the whole thing. This is a legitimate machlokes that remains.
But there is no legitimate machlokes regarding the severe and insurmountable halachic problems of Zionism and the State of Israel.
As well, modern-day rabbanim have also confirmed that those pre-state views have not changed; and there is anyways no reason to believe they should change. The Torah is, of course, forever.
You are trying in vain to defend the indefensible.
But, again, I believe my points were relevant with regards to the OP. I’m sorry you do not agree, and there is certainly no need to respond.
Sam, 2 differences.
1) He was talking about a case that the Ashkenazi wanted to change, not paskening that we all should.
2) He was talking about going according to the Mechaber in Halacha, not in following Sefardi pronunciation.
Also, my point still stands that it’s less than likely that anyone ever followed such a psak.
OURtorah – that was so beautifully said. My life was very similar to what you are describing and I have made that same speech so many times. Many times here as well. I hope you are more successful in getting people to see the obvious than I have been.
Keep up the efforts.
I was brought up in a frum, tzioni home. I was very active in Bnai Akiva. We saw the chareidim as very close minded and judgemental, never having a clue why what we learned and observed was ‘inadequate’. Had we not been Shomer Shabbos it might have made sense to us but we didn’t know what their complaints were.
When I hit my late teens I worked in a camp with some kids from BY. They were ‘normal’ and answered a million of my questions. I started making different changes and found my old chevra to be very judgemental and close minded to my changes, so much like what we accused the others of being.
When I became a Bnos leader I listened to the young girls insult and put down people from the more modern schools, but most of what they said was from ignorance. I explained to them how mistaken they were and was also explaining to my old friends how mistaken they were. I too felt I lived with one foot in each door.
As an adult, I have chosen a more chareidi lifestyle, but you know kids, they are either knocking those who are different, or wishing they could join them. They knock people I grew up respecting, and they also knock the hypocrisy of their own daled amos. If only there was more of an understanding of where everyone else was at, there would be less animosity on one hand, and less thinking the grass is greener on the other hand.
But meanwhile I find myself always explaining, always trying to bridge the gap, always thinking that if i just explain the fallacy of their thinking I could make shalom somewhere.
”If only there was more of an understanding…”
or less judging…
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