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I think there’s absolutely an inherent value in any person learning Torah. There’s something incredible and otherworldly about opening a sefer and learning it, connecting it to other sources, discussing it (or arguing about it, if you’re a man) with other people, being able to teach it to others – nothing can compare. It’s indescribably sublime. I’m not a feminist by any definition, but I don’t see why women shouldn’t get the same chance to experience ameilus b’torah. Even just watching a beis medrash from the window can impact a person tremendously.
I’m not saying that women should learn about things that don’t apply to them, because I know that some hold that it is in fact assur, but women should have an equal opportunity to drink in the beauty and truth of the Torah they are allowed to learn.
Health – you proved my point that the halacha is not that Haetz comes first, since you quoted sources that say that the halacha is not that Haetz comes first.
I never said or implied anywhere that Haadama comes first!!! I simply said that the halacha is not that Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Brura, neither one comes first – it goes by chaviv, not by the bracha.
I happen to have a strong background in both halachic thinking and logical thinking. I can see how someone who doesn’t might have had trouble understanding what I wrote, but I hope it is clear to you now.
Daas Yachid – I realize that you were quoting the Mishna Berurah, but you were only quoting one segment of the Mishna Berurah where he comments on a particular point in the Shulchan Aruch as opposed to quoting the section in the B’iur Halacha where he explains in depth the halacha of which comes first when you have a Haetz and a Haadama, which is the issue at hand.
This is the problem with anyone (male or female) attempting to learn halacha from the Mishna Berurah if they don’t have sufficient training in studying halachic sources.
Both you and Health have proved the point that not everyone (male or female) should be studying Mishna Brura. In addition to needing the training in halachic sources, one has to be able to think logically. If someone reads the statement: “The halacha when one has a Haetz and a Haadama is not that the Haetz comes first”, and thinks that means that Haadama comes first, they do not know the first thing about logic!!
Health – “I wasn’t talking about Shalame.” You wrote that the Halacha is that if there is no chaviv or 7 minim, Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Berura that is not correct – the next thing we look at is shalem.
Health and DY – if you’re still having trouble understanding the Sugya, this might make it clearer. The halacha in this case (as per the Mishna Brura) is not determined by the bracha but rather by which one is chaviv. However, there are those who think that it goes by the bracha.
I hope that you understand by now. If not, I can’t help you.
Mr. Yidd -“Women don’t like being told that they can’t use their brains, Health”
Tell that to Chazal – Lol Hamelamaid Torah etc.
Health – it doesn’t say that women can’t learn Torah, only that men can’t teach them Torah. Also, it’s only referring to certain parts of the Torah (that men can’t teach them) so they can still use their brains learning the other parts. And the Rambam says that women who do learn Torah Shebeal peh get schar for it. Which has to be explained since he just said that women aren’t supposed to learn Torah Sheb’al Peh. One common explanation is that even though most women shouldn’t learn Torah Shebeal peh, there are some women that should, and those women get schar for it.
Bottom line is that Chazal do not say that women can’t use their brains! As one of my rebbeim once pointed out, you can’t be a good Jew without using your brain. You have to constantly be using your brain in order to figure out what the halacha or correct thing to do is in every situation you are faced with every second of the end. And knowing the halacha in every situation is not a simple thing!
LU -“You wrote that the Halacha is that if there is no chaviv or 7 minim, Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Berura that is not correct – the next thing we look at is shalem.”
Stop putting words in my post! I did not write what you said.
I’ll repeat it, so you can stop trying to manipulate e/o!
“From Halachahpedia:
“HaEtz and HaAdama
This sentence was put there so the guy who wrote the article didn’t have to go into the Din of Shalem! “If both or neither are preferred then Shivat HaMinim takes precedence.”
What I don’t understand is why you keep on insisting that we’re wrong and you’re right?!?
Health – I don’t know why you are having such a hard time understanding what I wrote. I spent a lot of time explaining it to you, and I don’t know why you still don’t understand. I think if you reread my posts carefully and really try to understand them, you will be able to understand them. If you still have any questions, you can ask me politely, and I will try to answer them for you.
I have been teaching halacha for many years and I have taught this sugya and I never had a student who had such a hard time understanding it. It is possible that I am used to teaching students of a different caliber, but I have the feeling you are not really trying very hard and if you try harder you will understand.
I am curious if the others out there were able to understand or are having the same issues.
Health – regarding your last post, you make no sense. You wrote as follows:
“LU -“You wrote that the Halacha is that if there is no chaviv or 7 minim, Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Berura that is not correct – the next thing we look at is shalem.”
Stop putting words in my post! I did not write what you said.”
Then you went and again said exactly what I told you that you said. You quote Halachapedia which says as follows: If neither are Shivat HaMinim and are equally preferred, then HaEtz takes precedence over HaAdama”
That is exactly what I said that you said. I wrote that you said that if there is no chaviv or 7 minim, haetz comes first. And you just proved my point, since you said it again.
maybe you should start dating mo girls.
Sparkly -“maybe you should start dating mo girls”
You might have a point! Seems like MO girls are better than know-it-alls!
LU -“I don’t know why you are having such a hard time understanding what I wrote. I spent a lot of time explaining it to you, and I don’t know why you still don’t understand. I think if you reread my posts carefully and really try to understand them, you will be able to understand them. If you still have any questions, you can ask me politely, and I will try to answer them for you.”
This applies to you, not me!
I don’t know why you are having such a hard time understanding what I wrote. I spent a lot of time explaining it to you, and I don’t know why you still don’t understand. I think if you reread my posts carefully and really try to understand them, you will be able to understand them. If you still have any questions, you can ask me politely, and I will try to answer them for you.
LU -“are equally preferred”
Do you know the meaning of this according to Halachah?
I.M. Shluffin:
Women who learn Torah also like to argue about it.
Health – I had made the following statement:
“For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.”
You have spent a lot of time trying to tell me that I am wrong, and yet you have not brought a single proof that I am wrong, and if fact the only source that you brought (which is not even a source) agrees with me.
LU -“You have spent a lot of time trying to tell me that I am wrong, and yet you have not brought a single proof that I am wrong, and if fact the only source that you brought (which is not even a source) agrees with me”
If you want to continue this discussion, first answer my question of – -“are equally preferred”
“Do you know the meaning of this according to Halachah?”
It means there is no chaviv.
LU -“It means there is no chaviv”
Yes and No. It also means that they’re both Sholaim or both not. Therefore I wrote “then HaEtz takes precedence over HaAdama”!
Health, as I already told you, the words “equally preferred” mean chaviv not chaviv or shalem. Also, if you look at the lashon of the Halachopedia, it is impossible to translate it your way.
In any event, that was a side point. The main point was that the Mishna Brura poskens according to the opinion in the Rishonim that we go by chaviv not by Haetz.
As I wrote before: “You have spent a lot of time trying to tell me that I am wrong, and yet you have not brought a single proof that I am wrong, and if fact the only source that you brought (which is not even a source) agrees with me.”
LU -“Health, as I already told you, the words “equally preferred” mean chaviv not chaviv or shalem”
Exactly! Here’s the quote again:”From Halachahpedia:
“HaEtz and HaAdama
When you posted this:
“For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.”
Again you’re wrong! Almost always it’s Not INCORRECT! They usually are equal in both Shlaimus and Chavevus!
jewish feminist – when men learn gemara they argue about it. so your point?
Sparkly, yes I know…perhaps you didn’t see the original comment I was responding to.
I.M. Shluffin wrote “There’s something incredible and otherworldly about opening a sefer and learning it, connecting it to other sources, discussing it (or arguing about it, if you’re a man)”.
My point is that it is not only men who argue back and forth when they learn Gemara together. Women who learn Gemara do the same.
Bochur learning gemara: “but we really have to figure out the ikur of this … and then why would this work … (4 hours later) aha! so the … and the … ah!!!”
Meidel learning gemara: “Well that’s just common sense.”
ptcha – actually thats not true at least i continue to argue just like a guy.
DY -“You neglected to say that ordinarily, you say haetz first.”
After my last post, she (LU) owes me and you an apology!
LU – I’ll repeat the Halachah because you still obviously don’t understand!
Stop posting the MB, because it’s not L’masseh!
From Halachahpedia:
“If neither are Shivat HaMinim and are equally preferred, then HaEtz takes precedence over HaAdama”
They usually are equal in both Shlaimus and Chavevus!
They usually are equal in both wholeness and likeability!
I translated it, in case you don’t understand Hebrew.
Health, stop quoting the Halachapedia! Not only is it not l’maaseh, it’s not even a source!!!!!
The Mishna Berurah is l’maaseh!! Ask any Rav – I have asked several. Check out Rav Bodner’s and Rav Forst’s sefarim where they quote the Mishna Berurah’s opinion on this.
Furthermore, even the Halachapedia doesn’t say anywhere that they usually are equal in shlaimus and chavivus.
Have you done a survey to determine that most people have no taste preferences?? That’s a really strange statement to make aside from being irrelevant.
Health, you keep saying ridiculous things that make no sense. You haven’t learned the inyan, yet you keep trying to “prove” that I am wrong. Do you realize that there is something strange about that?
LU -“Health, stop quoting the Halachapedia! Not only is it not l’maaseh, it’s not even a source!!!!!”
Yes, it is! On the bottom it lists where they got it from!
“Furthermore, even the Halachapedia doesn’t say anywhere that they usually are equal in shlaimus and chavivus.”
That’s obvious, even you admitted that most people say Haetz first!
If e/o does it, there must be a reason. I just wrote what that was!
“Health, you keep saying ridiculous things that make no sense. You haven’t learned the inyan, yet you keep trying to “prove” that I am wrong. Do you realize that there is something strange about that?”
LOL! You keep proving – Why Religious girls should Not learn Torah B’Iyun!
“Yes, it is! On the bottom it lists where they got it from!” – that means that it is not a source – he quotes sources. He actually is quoting the Mishna Berura just as I am and he is no more a source than I am. The only point in bringing in the halachapedia is if you want me to comment on whether or not he does a good job of explaining the Mishna Brurah, and that is assur.
It doesn’t make sense that you wrote that we don’t go by the Mishna Brurah l’maaseh, and then you are quoting someone who is quoting the Mishna Brura.
The only reason why you are bringing in the Halachapedia is because you don’t know how to learn the Mishna Berurah yourself, which is why it is ridiculous for you to be arguing with me about what the MB says.
“That’s obvious, even you admitted that most people say Haetz first!
If e/o does it, there must be a reason. I just wrote what that was!”
That sentence makes no sense. I said that most people think you say haetz first because they don’t know the halacha (at least not until I point it out to them and they look it up).
“LOL! You keep proving – Why Religious girls should Not learn Torah B’Iyun!”
Why, are you a girl? – I thought you were a guy! Anyhow, your problem is that you HAVE NOT learned b’iyun. I am not against anyone learning b’iyun, and I think it would be kidai for you to do so. Why don’t you find someone to sit down with you and teach you the sources? Then maybe you won’t be so frustrated by the fact that you don’t understand them, and that there is a female somewhere in the world who knows more than you.
Actually, I think what you should do is to go read Rav Bodner’s Hilchos Brachos Sefer. It is in english and well-written and he explains this sugya very clearly.
LU -“It doesn’t make sense that you wrote that we don’t go by the Mishna Brurah l’maaseh, and then you are quoting someone who is quoting the Mishna Brura”
You don’t even begin to understand my posts!
We hold like that MB, but it doesn’t come out L’masseh. One is not more Chaviv than the other.
You wrote that the Halacha is “that if there is no chaviv or 7 minim, Haetz comes first. According to the Mishna Berura that is not correct – the next thing we look at is shalem.”
That’s correct. But I’ve been trying to tell you – that most often they’re both whole!
Now why don’t you go back and read all my posts and you’ll see what I’ve been talking about!
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