- This topic has 80 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
When I talk to girls on dates and say I would like a girl who learns halachot that apply to her, such as shabbat, kashrut and other day to day things, they think its a weird idea. How did it become that a religious girls is defined only by her keeping shabbat, eating kosher and dressing modestly? What happened to all the other things that apply to woman?
skald89 – its called anti feminism.
Women have no mitzvah to learn torah. They are supposed to know what is relevant to them, but this is like a hecsher mitzvah(beis halevi), as opposed to a man, who his entire essence is torah.
The Gra says that for a woman, tznius is the essence of who she is, and is her way of serving hashem, on par with a man’s torah.
“they think its a weird idea”
Maybe you are dating the wrong women for you.
“They are supposed to know what is relevant to them”
Which is almost everything. There are only about a dozen or so mitzvot in our times that are incumbent on men but not on women and women can and do take on most of them. And even in the Temple women could participate in the Avodah by shechting her own korban. (And some apparently did — there was a separate women’s entrance to the Courtyard of the Priests.
“Tznius is the essence of who she is”
But that is not an excuse to be ignorant. Or not fulfill mitzvot. And they can go together — a great example is the separate women’s entrance to the Courtyard of the Priests! Another great example today are the Women’s Tefillah Groups in some modern orthodox synagogues — no men allowed.
brisker: You are wrong. You’re against a Rama.
brisker26 – good point which is the reason why i dont learn and just go to shiurim.
Brisker is 100? correct.
The idea that women have no chiyuv to learn is a common misconception.
According to the Mishna Brura, women have a chiyuv to learn the halachos that apply to them, and that is why they say the Bracha of “asher kidishanu b’Mitzosav V’TZIVANU l’asok b’divrei Torah” every morning (B’iur Halacha, Siman 47, d”H “Nashim”)
Rav Avigdor Miller says in one his books that a woman would have to sit and learn for at least 60 years in order to finish learning all of the things that she is CHAYIV to learn. He says the difference between men and women is that she has more excuses not to learn than he does, but she also has a chiyuv to learn when she is able to.
Sparkly – how one learns best – whether through attending shiurim or learning independently – is an individual decision. But both ways are considered to be learning. Each person has to decide how she incorporates learning in her life, but everyone has a chiyuv to learn, however she does it.
Torah is at the center of every Jew’s life, male or female, and the only way to know what Hashem wants you to do is through learning Torah in one form or another. Every Jew has to make some time to learn, whether it’s daily, weekly or even monthly. There are so many halachos that every woman and girl MUST know. If you did not have the opportunity to learn, then you may not be held accountable for not knowing. But if you had the opportunity to learn and you didn’t, you have no excuse for being oveir on a halacha!
How many times do people complain of boredom?! Have they finished learning every Halacha that they are REQUIRED to know? If not, how can they complain of boredom? There are enough English language Sefarim out there that anyone can and must pick up and learn!!!
sparkly: Why is going to a Shiur not considered learning?
I agree with Charliehall that you are probably going out with the wrong girls. I know lots of girls who love learning and consider it an integral part of their lives. Either that, or maybe it has to do with the way you phrase the statement (I don’t know how you phrase it; I am just guessing that sometimes when something sounds funny to someone, it has to do with the way that it is phrased.)
lilmod ulelamaid – i meant i dont learn bymyself like gemara, you dont need to learn gemara. i go to shiurim and learn parsha and halacha. all the guys i know think that its totally okay to learn gemara and my rabbi also does.
Sparkly – I don’t think that skald89 was talking about Gemara; he was talking about girls learning the halachos that apply to them. He didn’t say anything about how they should learn it (whether through Gemara or through attending a shiur). It sounded like the girls he went out with don’t learn at all, though any method. I think the issue was whether or not girls should be learning – not how they should be learning.
“all the guys i know think that its totally okay to learn gemara and my rabbi also does. “
Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l said that it was a chiyuv on the community to teach gemara to girls and his position has been accepted as the normative halachah in most if not all modern orthodox communities.
My wife has learned three tractates.
charlie hall – are you mo? i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?
Sparkly -“charlie hall – are you mo?”
He’s more than MO – he’s Open Orthodox!
“are you mo”
I do accept that characterization of MO although the distinction between me and a charedi orthodox Jew has to do with my acceptance of science, history and secular culture rather than any differences in mitzvot observance. I have not personally identified as OO even though I agree with a few things that are done in that name (like semicha for women).
“i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?”
I think you are correct and today that may be the distinction between the two. It should be pointed out though that Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l was at one point a member of the Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah of Agudath Israel of America.
charlie hall – knowing science is beautiful you know the world Hashem created and how it works it has nothing to do with being mo. in fact its the exact opposite.
“i thought yeshivish girls dont learn gemara?”
“I think you are correct”
That is actually not correct.There are Yeshivish girls who learn Gemara. However, it’s done on an individual basis – not as a mass thing. This is according to the way most understand the halacha of girls not learning Torah Sheb’al Peh (although there are many opinion on the topic) – that it is not something for the masses, but that there are individual women who could or should learn Gemara, assuming they are doing it for the right reasons.
lilmod ulelamaid – you are absolutely correct when i was yeshivish i learnt gemara and you cant learn it with guys which gets REALLY hard because then you dont have anyone to teach it to you and no girls really learn gemara so i had to quit. now since im mo i learn it with guys which makes it MUCH easier.
There are actually two mitzvot. Talmud Torah and limud Torah. The former involves the inner workeings of Torah (sevarot, middot shehaTorah nidreshet bahen, etc.). The latter involves learning practical mitzvot including mussar and emuna. Women are exempt from the former but obligated in the latter (therefore they say birkat haTorah in the morning). Thus, for example,a woman would not have to learn Mishna Berura or Aruch HaShulchan but she would have to learn Chayei Adam or Kitzor Shulchan Aruch. Whether and what one should teach them in our time is a matter of discussion and different commuities have different approaches.
Avi, I disagree with you about women learning Kitzor Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam as opposed to Mishna Berura. If you learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam, you will not know what to do l’maaseh. It is true that there are times when we don’t posken according to the Mishna Berurah, but in general, if you act according to the Mishna Berurah, you are on safe grounds. The best is to learn Mishna Berurah with Dirshu (that’s what I do), since he brings the opinions of the contemporary poskim.
The only problem with women learning Mishna Berurah might be that most women don’t have the necessary training and background, and might come to “posken” incorrectly. I assume that is why many schools learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. In any case, if one wants to ensure that she knows halacha l’maaseh properly, she is probably best off reading a quality English Halacha Seifer, but I don’t think they exist yet for every topic.
I have not actually come across one yet for Cheilik Alef, although I have been looking for such a thing, since I am teaching it now.
They dont learn torah? What is learning Tanach with pirush Rashi, Ramban, Ibn Ezra, Seforno and Malbim called? You could debate the necessity of them learning that, but it is torah, even if it isnt learned in Yeshivos.
apushatayid – I understood that skald69 is saying that the girls he dates don’t learn those things. When they were in high school and seminary, they had no choice, but now they don’t learn anymore.
The gemara clearly isnt bothered by this question.
Nashim, bmai zachyi……
I think girls learn a great deal of halacha while in BY and even in seminary. They have to know what is necessary for the lives they are living at that time. I mean how have they been keeping Shabbos and kashrus up until now. I mean my daughter had a test in 10th or 11th grade on the 39 melachos and she had to know tons of stuff by heart. Does she need to take a whole new class on hilchos Shabbos before she gets married?
When she gets married and starts getting involved in new situations that she never came across before, then she should not hesitate to ask questions about them to find out the proper way to behave in these new situations. You will find classes for married women in things like Hilchos Shabbos and maybe even kashrus in various neighborhoods, but perhaps it is something that the husband and wife can learn together on a case-by-case basis when she has something new she is not sure about. Of course, as a married woman, she has a whole new set of halachos to learn about for taharas hamishpacha.
More enriching for a woman is to learn hashkafa and mussar. These help shape her attitudes about the things she is involved with until the time she gets married and hopefully a girl who likes to learn these kinds of things before she gets married will continue on afterwards. Again, this can be learned between the husband and wife and will help keep them on the same page hashkafically (I hope).
Depending on what exactly you want your future wife’s focus to be, you could tell a shadchan that you are looking for someone who is into spiritual growth and sees learning as being an important part of her life at the present time and wants to continue after she gets married.
skald 89 – what type of guy are you? Maybe i know a girl for you.
lilmod ulelamaid – not every girl is like me. thats why its surprising that im dating mo guys. not every girl sits around learning halachos and going to shiurim after seminary.
“A girl should not and does not need to learn how to make a halachic decision in specific cases. A Rav should be consulted.”
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
Nechoma, as someone who has been studying halacha my entire life and teaching it for several years, I can tell you that it takes many, many, years of studying halacha in order to know all the basic halachos that you need to know on a daily basis.
I attended a Bais Yaakov high school and know many others who have and I do not know a single person who knows all of the halachos that one needs to know on a daily basis.
I have known very-seriously-Frum Bais Yaakov graduates from very-seriously-Frum families who were not aware of and were oiver on basic halachos such as cutting up a salad on Shabbos several hours before the meal and speaking about melachos that they were going to perform during the week.
To take one (very important) example, I know very few people (men or women) who know all of the halachos of dibbur chol on Shabbos and people (including Bnei Torah) are oveir on it all of the time without even realizing it.
To take another example: I taught Hilchos Brachos last year, and I studied it in depth, and I realized that there are many, many halachos that people are not aware of. For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
Also, even though I have been studying halacha in depth for many years, I am continually coming across new Halachos!
skald89: I agree that more effort should be put into learning halachot. In high school halacha class was the one everyone tuned out really. It’s the mentality that we don’t HAVE to learn it so much, girls say: “I don’t need to learn kashrut, I learned from my mother by doing what she did” but limasseh it will be problamatic when there is one thing that goes wrong- everything will be a sheilah.
I know many girls, myself including who learn on their own time halacha. Either getting emails, learning from a book, or from a whatsapp group. Awareness is spreading.
I still don’t know about halacha. I hope to learn more, but I also hope I can rely on my future to be husband. Women have much to worry about, the house, kids, even parnassah (in many cases, although it should not be this way). I believe, although it is very nice you want a woman who knows halacha, it is impractical.
But now reading through more of your posts it seems to be you are more looking for someone who knows the Halachot for the mitzvot she does every day, and a desire to want to learn more and not be uneducated about the other mitzvot she is doing as her tafkid in this world. You are looking more for someone who is open to learning and also sees the value in the idea of learning halacha and mussar.
I wish you all the luck in finding a wife. Maybe we should have some shidduchim done over the CR lol. Seems like plenty of single people here. About mussar, in my school we learned mussar from books not just speeches, and discussions. We learned chovos halevavos, and other books.
shopping 613 – the kinds of girls and guys on here are too diverse and i dont think anyone on here would be good for me. but nice try. i need someone pro feminism and most guys on here are anti feminism. but maybe i know a girl for one of the guys.
Politics aren’t that important in a marriage.
LU: For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
Source please? That doesn’t seem even slightly correct. I’m pretty sure Eitz before Adamah is a Mishnah or Baraisa.
Feminism isn’t politics.
I know, I am a feminist too, but I don’t think guys on here are anti feminists.
For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.
It is better to make Haetz first. This is the opinion of the Behag, although it says in Shulchan Aruch OC 211 that you can pick which one to eat first, but the minhag is not like the Shulchan Aruch.
I think there’s a typo in your post. Ordinarily, Ha’etz comes first.
?”? ??”? ??: ??”? ????”? ???? – ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ??”? ??? ?? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
LU-“Avi, I disagree with you about women learning Kitzor Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam as opposed to Mishna Berura. If you learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch or Chayei Adam, you will not know what to do l’maaseh. It is true that there are times when we don’t posken according to the Mishna Berurah, but in general, if you act according to the Mishna Berurah, you are on safe grounds. The best is to learn Mishna Berurah with Dirshu (that’s what I do), since he brings the opinions of the contemporary poskim.
The only problem with women learning Mishna Berurah might be that most women don’t have the necessary training and background, and might come to “posken” incorrectly. I assume that is why many schools learn Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. In any case, if one wants to ensure that she knows halacha l’maaseh properly, she is probably best off reading a quality English Halacha Seifer, but I don’t think they exist yet for every topic.
To take another example: I taught Hilchos Brachos last year, and I studied it in depth, and I realized that there are many, many halachos that people are not aware of. For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.”
The thing you’re rallying about applies to you!
You just proved girls should Not learn Mishnah Brurah!
From Halachahpedia:
“HaEtz and HaAdama
For all those people who are arguing with me about the order of priorities when eating a HaEtz and a HaAdama, please see: Biur Halacha, Siman 211, d”h: “V’yesh omrim shegam…” and Shaar Hatzion 5.
There is a machlokes Rishonim which comes first. There are several opinions including an opinion that it goes by chaviv (which one you like best) and an opinion that HaEtz takes priority. L’maaseh, the Mishna Berurah poskens that we hold according to the opinion that it goes by chaviv not by Haetz. If both are chaviv, then it goes by Sheva Minim or Shalem. In Shaar Hatzion, he says that he is not sure which of those two take priority – sheva minim or shalem – but in any case they both take priority over Haetz. It is only in a case where there is no chaviv or sheva minim or shalem (or both are shalem) that he says to take the Haetz opinion into account.*
There are other opinions. I think the Kaf HaChaim might hold that HaEtz comes first, but generally speaking, Ashkenazim poskim by the Mishna Berurah over the Kaf Hachaim. In Rav Bodner and Rav Forst’s sefarim, they posken according to the Mishna Berurah in this issue. And anytime I had this argument with anyone who thought the Halacha was that Haetz came first, it was not because they were quoting the Kaf Hachaim but rather because they thought that’s what the Mishna Berurah said, until I showed them the B’iur Halacha and they realized I was right.
Health and DY: I’m not sure what your point is. The sources you’re quoting simply prove my point!!! The Mishna Berurah does not hold by the opinion that Haetz comes first. He holds by the opinion that chaviv comes first, and is only choshesh for that opinion if there is no chaviv, shalem or 7 Minim.
* He does also take it into account in 2 other cases: 1. If he likes the Haadama better in general, but he likes the Haetz better now and it is a 7 Minim, then the M.B. says to make the bracha on the Haetz first. 2. If he he likes the Haadama better in general but he likes the Haetz better now, even if it’s not a 7 minim, he says that perhaps you should make the bracha on the Haetz first.
Bottom line, he does not posken that Haetz comes first; he takes that opinion into account in certain circumstances.
Health and DY: btw, you neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim.
LU -“Health and DY: I’m not sure what your point is. The sources you’re quoting simply prove my point”
Wrong! I’m proving my point!
“You just proved girls should Not learn Mishnah Brurah”
“Health and DY: btw, you neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim”
I wasn’t talking about Shalame.
“For example, most people (of both genders including B’nei Torah) think that if you have a Haetz and a Haadamah, you make the bracha on the Haetz first, and this is incorrect according to the Mishna Berurah and most comtemporary Poskim.”
This is what we were talking about!
The impression from your post is to say Haadomah first.
This is WRONG!
Girls should stick to Kitzur Shulchan Aruch!
Your defense is No defense.
We’re still right, even though you made a long post defending yourself!
you neglected to mention that when the Haadama is shalem it comes first according to the Mishna Berurah even if it’s not chaviv or 7 minim.
You neglected to say that ordinarily, you say haetz first.
I simply quoted the Mishna Berurah.
Women don’t like being told that they can’t use their brains, Health.
shopping 613 – im a feminist and want my husband to treat me as an equal. i dont want him to disrespect me and tell me i cant do something because im a girl. but anyways the guys that i date are the type to be like “i believe in feminism! women in stem!” and treat me as if im an equal and never tell me i cant do something because im a girl.
I see no inherent value in women learning torah. They should be taught the dinim that apply to them, and that’s it.
You will never father a child. Just because you’re a girl.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.