- This topic has 78 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
So I read R’ Rechnitz’s follow up piece, and I thank him very much for his concern and for his dedication to klal yisroel. He really is an incredible model of tzedaka and chessed, and I am proud to be able to be part of a klal yisroel that includes him.
However, I have a criticism of his advice regarding boys dating earlier.
You see, there is exactly one thing that could actually get the guys to start dating earlier: If their roshei yeshiva would klop on the bima and announce: “Everyone should start dating earlier.”
So until now, I was dan NASI v’sayaatam l’kaf zchus, and figured that they simply didn’t have access to the roshei yeshiva to explain to them why they should do this. Yes, I know they got their dumb kol korei’s, but it’s a lot easier to get a kol korei signed/forged than to get an audience.
But R’ Rechnitz surely is able to get an appointment with my rosh yeshiva, and with your rosh yeshiva, and with the other roshei yeshiva. In fact, they all flew to LA for his daughter’s wedding last year. So has he sat down with my rosh yeshiva and tried win him over to his cause? Did he bring along the “experts” that are behind NASI? Did he present all the evidence he has, and let my rosh yeshiva decide? And your rosh yeshiva. And all the rest of them too?
So how come my rosh yeshiva hasn’t told the yeshiva to start dating earlier? Nor your rosh yeshiva? Nor all the roshei yeshiva?
Because they don’t agree, that’s why.
1. What’s the downside to guys dating earlier?
2. How does the downside outweigh the upside?
Popa, until the system allows for it to be considered normal, it might not be in a bochur’s best interest, so until then, it would make sense for there not to be a klop. More importantly, will RSYR be able to make it normal? If so, let’s see if there are some bima klops.
Lior,
1) a. sholom bayis b. decreased years of learning
2) see 1)
I’m not taking sides in upside vs. downside, but I can certainly see why some RY might not be so enthusiastic.
Agreed, 100%, without the Bima Klops nothing will happen!
R’ Rechnitz
d e f i n i t e l y
knows as well as we do, that without the Bima Klops nothing will happen!
The Billion Dollar question: Why did R’ Rechnitz even bring this idea up to the public, without FIRST orchestrating the Bima Klops?
Popa, I don’t need hard data. I have no doubt that there’s a growing population and an age gap (typically).
I do agree, as I’ve posted, that there’s a downside. There’s also an upside: kedusha. This is in Chaza”l, and the Chazon Ish held it applied in his day, and R’ Chaim holds it applies today, so I don’t easily dismiss it.
Also, I wouldn’t necessarily expect a bima klop, because then you’d get bochurim who aren’t ready yet (l’shitaseinu) starting to go out. Maybe RY are already privately encouraging guys to start earlier.
I need more than a sevara before making a change like this.
It is more than a sevara, and the numbers are clear, even taking into account that there are more boys than girls born (which I grant is true). and that’s without the strong anecdotal evidence if more girls around than boys.
There’s actually a much simpler reason for the lack of bima klops, and why RSYR didn’t wait for them: we’re not ready for them yet.
We agree to two potential downsides: loss of learning, and boys’ immaturity.
As far as loss of learning, RSYR suggested changes in the yeshiva system to prevent this. Well, this hasn’t happened yet, but he’s trying to get the public, as well as the RY, behind it, and he will need both.
As far as maturity, if we assume that inherently, boys are mature enough at a younger age Chazal and Chassidim would seem to support this), that doesn’t mean you can take a 21 year old bochur who thinks he’s getting married in at least a year and a half and stick him under the chuppah.
Part if the maturity process is the mental preparation, which needs time. We’re just not there yet on a wide scale.
unless you assume that the “system” gains and loses at the same rates for boys and girls–which is very much not clear.
There would have to be a significant difference to balance out the natural numbers.
And the anecdotal evidence could have myriads of other reasons, as I and others have expounded on this forum.
They could make it worse, but it wouldn’t lessen the need to close the gap one iota.
Look, bima klop or aguda convention speech, the roshei yeshiva are not lining up behind him on this.
I think I gave some very good reasons. Also, they certainly haven’t spoken against him; I would think they could have convinced him not to take this public.
I think that the biggest factor blocking the age issue from being more widespread in America is the attitude that the boys are not mature enough. In England, it is normal for a bochur to enter the shidduch system at age 21. So why do Americans insist on keeping the boys until they’re older? Granted there are older girls in England who are still waiting but I wouldn’t call it a crisis. I know way more American singles than English ones.
Chasidim usually marry very young and mature together after marriage. Of course you have to be a mentch to get along with a wife but you can be an immature mentch.
Popa_bar_abba,
For whatever it’s worth, you have my complete approval and support for every (well-written) word of your post opening this thread.
I’m afraid this will degenerate into the usual shidduch thread nonsense. But your post still stands.
It’s also not clear to me why R’ Rechnitz, who is so generous and has so many resources available to him, has not invested in producing (as you already mentioned) some real hard data in the form of a reliable analysis of the numbers and other factors involved here.
There have been scientific studies conducted on other subjects (including, but not limited to, finding a cure for diseases with drugs and other treatments) where the results were surprising and led to unexpected breakthroughs. Solutions to the problem studied sometimes resulted from treatment following an altogether different direction than expected.
It seems quite obvious that our Roshei Yeshiva don’t all approve of changing the way their Talmidim approach shidduchim.
The subject definitely requires further study.
I know way more American singles than English ones.
there are way more americans than british
Which just proves that the cause is population growth.
Who said the Roshei Yeshiva support or agree with the current setup where bochorim wait so long to get married? The bochorim or more likely their parents made the decision to delay marriage, not necessarily with the approval of or even asking the Rosh Yeshiva.
Just because America is a bigger country with more people in it doesn’t mean that there have to be more singles. I’m talking about a ratio of singles:population here, and that ratio in America is higher. The majority of girls in England are married by 23, with only a small number of girls from any graduating class not married by even 25.
Why is Rechnitz even a topic for discussion? What is he adding? The theory he is touting is the same old, and throwing money at it? Same old. So why does the same spiel coming from Rechnitz cause a revival of the tired old Pogrow quasi-arguments?
Does anyone question a bima klop for something so personal as shidduchim? Bima Klops are for yaleh v’yavo.
The real area is in shmooze. And there is a lot to shmooze about for Roshei Yeshiva. One topic not being mentioned often is not negating the stance of the Roshei Yeshiva one way or another.
I have not been to many Yeshivas but to my knowledge most Yeshivas set up a system where people go personally (ie one on one) to discuss dating and when to get married with a rebbe or older kollel yungerman…not en masse speech (or bima klop) to many bochurim of various ages and maturity levels about specific instructions for when to get married.
And if one’s RY signed the kol koreh and has not said anything contradictory…can’t we assume (chazakah, nu?) that’s their stance. Why is there a need for additional proofs?
The Shidduch crisis or issue or whatever is complicated because every boy and every girl is their own parshah. However, general ideas being more readily acceptable that help in general terms the issue are a big step in the right direction (=dating younger or marrying an “older” girl). Reb Chaim said about marrying older/same age, many other gedolim. Is this some conspiracy by a baal habus who already married off his daughters of marital age with ease? Please. Is there any shidduch crisis by any givirim who have daughters that have pull in the Torah world? Is trying to convince people that “bochurim” (a code word unfortunately for many with immaturity) should marry earlier not something that all these intelligent people probably considered and analyzed data for before making such remarks.
Rabbi Rechnitz is the real deal. He’s not making CDs for Shmitta observers or getting his hand involved (see above etc.) in the very touchy topic of shidduchim because he’s got an agenda. Other than doing what he feels is right about a serious issue that has the full backing of most if not all of Daas Torah.
If tomorrow, there is no bima klop. You still need to say HaMelech HaKadosh. The Roshei Yeshiva don’t have to say so again.
Gotta give credit where its due…. at least one of Rechnitz’s “steps” is very worthwhile- I call attention to #2. Full time shadchanim to locate and match older girls with “Bachelors who didn’t necessarily learn in those yeshivos that girls imagine their husbands to have learned in”.
Kudos.
This addresses a huge problem in our community which I believe has an enormous hand in the shidduch crisis, namely the disappearing middle class boy. Admittedly this Step does nothing to fix the problem itself (which is the pressure forcing all boys to be bnei yeshiva full time or be relegated as bums or even otd) but by fixing the girls’ attitude we can get closer to dealing with the real issue. A girl who watches her prime years pass by because she only considers Lakewood and no college has herself to blame. If the girls can be taught the value of the more worldly boys then those boys wont have to hide. If we as a society can learn to value them then hopefully we can hold on to more of them and even out the numbers gap.
PBA: R’ Rechnitz can only work around the Roshei Yeshiva, not with them (and I have confirmed this with someone on the inside of this program). As I have said in the past, the Roshei Yeshiva (specifically BMG) are very happy to have an imbalance between boys and girls; it allows boys to stay in learning longer, and allows them to stay in Bais Medrash instead of needing to be able to support a family before dating. If the cost is 15%-20% (if that is the number, who really knows) of girls who never get married, so be it. That is why none of his proposals will solve the problem, they can only cover it over slightly better. Even to Squeak’s point #2, he is not saying that girls should be taught that these boys are the ones to marry, but rather trying to find these boys (if they are still willing to shidduch date) so they can be seen as second class and “settling” by their spouses (talk about a recipe for divorce!!!). He does not think of fixing the problem that the schools should teach that not all girls should be looking to marry a learning boy, as the imbalance might be fixed.
The elephant in the room is support, and how breaking the imbalance will cause a decrease in overall learning.
A girl who watches her prime years pass by because she only considers Lakewood and no college has herself to blame.
I disagree with you. I don’t think that a girl who is only looking for a Lakewood type boy with no college has herself to blame. That’s what she is looking for. If you want to say that there are more girls looking for learning boys than there are learning boys, that’s okay. The girls who won’t go out with working boys are not at fault here.
I think the problem with the whole system is that there are more “good” girls than there are “good” boys. And I think that is partly because the girls school system is better than the boys yeshiva system. And also because it is easier to be a “good” girl than it is to be a “good” boy.
I find it very difficult to believe that BMG roshei yeshiva prefer girls to remain unmarried
I find it very difficult to believe that BMG roshei yeshiva prefer girls to remain unmarried
Of course not. Gavra is much too cynical. What is conceivable, though, is that they feel that the current norm of 23 is the best typical age from the bochurim’s perspective, and that it’s not their jobs to encourage them to do something against their best interests.
Agree with DY that the RY don’t believe in sacrificing the yochid for the greater good. And b”h for that, because the grounds for manipulating peoples’ life decisions here are far too shaky.
And in response to gavra, the girl had better not have that attitude, because she could as easily rechin that she is a reject of the entire yeshiva world (none of them were willing to marry her). Better to focus on each other’s positives and admit to one’s self that you may not be worthy of first cut (and better yet, expand your own worldview of what first cut means- that is not someone else’s job).
A girl can reasonably remain “idealistic” about learning only boys for a couple of years at best. After that, its time to broaden the search or be damned.
I’m finding it odd that we’re trying to extrapolate and imagine what the Roshei Yeshiva are thinking. A little disrespectful, no? And definitely a pointless exercise.
What does seem clear (to most of us) is that the Roshei Yeshiva are, in fact, not fully supportive of, and not implementing any major changes in line with, the age gap theory.
And, while West Gate (and many others) would like to blame the parents for every problem from unmarried singles to global warming (come to think of it, he could probably make a solid argument that ISIS arose out of horrendously misguided parenting), there is no doubt that the opinion of the Roshei Yeshiva is an important factor in the decisions of the young men learning in Yeshiva. And that’s the demographic a lot (most?) of the unmarried ladies in question are trying to reach.
I’m agreeing with squeak that the grounds here are very shaky. And suggesting again that R’ Rechnitz round up some smart people with the experience and knowledge necessary to do some solid research. We need to get onto more solid ground to solve this problem.
Roshei Yeshiva have older single daughters, too.
Roshei Yeshivos also have sons that marry a girl years below their own age.
To Poppa bar Abba and Golfer,
I find it hard to believe that Rav Rechnitz did not do a survey of the type you describe. In Los Angeles, the community is small enough that I think you could do this survey just by looking at graduation pictures and asking the local Yentas what happened to this one, what happened to that one, etc. My guess is that they found something that they don’t want to publicize – such as many more boys going OTD than girls. It would explain the lack of hard evidence available to us.
Publicizing that data (if it exists) would indicate a very serious failure of the day schools involved. Parents pay tens of thousands of dollars for private education, but chances are that the boy is going to go OTD anyways. The parents are going to take their sons elsewhere.
That’s my uneducated guess.
I find it hard to believe that Rav Rechnitz did not do a survey of the type you describe. In Los Angeles, the community is small enough that I think you could do this survey just by looking at graduation pictures and asking the local Yentas what happened to this one, what happened to that one, etc.
You can’t bring a raya from oot to the overall numbers. A disproportionate number of bochurim are on the east coast, specifically tri-state area, and all else being equal (on “paper”) would prefer not to travel to meet a girl.
Not merely the tri-state area. A highly disproportionate amount of American Orthodox Jewry is concentrated specifically in Brooklyn and Lakewood (and potentially the outer-boroughs and Monsey/NS/KJ can be included.)
I am trying to get detailed information on the shadchanas incentive that Mr. Rechnitz is offering to qualifying shidduchim. I have emailed the email address that was included in the Mishpacha article but did not hear back. If anyone is connected to Mr. Rechnitz, can you please ask him where I can find the detailed information. Thank you very much.
DY:
Of course not. Gavra is much too cynical. What is conceivable, though, is that they feel that the current norm of 23 is the best typical age from the bochurim’s perspective, and that it’s not their jobs to encourage them to do something against their best interests.
So you agree with me, but put a nicer spin on it. Yasher Koach.
As I have said before, if they really cared, they could extend the freezer by a year except for girls older than the boy. Not only would that solve the “crisis”, but it would also help those who are “older” (let’s say 26+), for whom no one seems to have any ideas.
As you said, the Roshei Yeshiva are very happy with the status quo. They are willing to tell bochrim in yenem’s yeshiva to go out earlier (hence the Kol Korei), but not their own who should stay in learning as long as possible and marry the Shver’s Swiss (or Cayman) bank account (and their 18 year old daughter by extension) (how’s that for cynical?)
PBA – exactly.
So you agree with me, but put a nicer spin on it. Yasher Koach.
Absolutely not. There’s a world of difference between saying they don’t really care (motzi shem ra, IMO), and saying they care deeply, but either have other priorities, or don’t “control” bochurim the way you, pba, and others seem to think they do.
As I have said before, if they really cared, they could extend the freezer by a year except for girls older than the boy. Not only would that solve the “crisis”, but it would also help those who are “older” (let’s say 26+), for whom no one seems to have any ideas.
The freezer is controversial enough without extending it further. Its purpose was never to manipulate bochurim into marrying differently; it was, and is, to allow them to settle into a good learning routine before the distraction of shidduchim comes up.
Also, it wouldn’t do much for 26+.
Absolutely not. There’s a world of difference between saying they don’t really care (motzi shem ra, IMO), and saying they care deeply, but either have other priorities, or don’t “control” bochurim the way you, pba, and others seem to think they do.
Semantics. It is like the old joke that someone loves getting the flu, it is just way down on the list of things that he loves. They may “care” about singles (in the abstract), but they care about supporting kollel bochrim and keeping them in yeshiva so much more that the other doesn’t come into the picture.
I’m not saying they “control” anyone, but they did manipulate they system (as you point out one way, the absolute disregard for planning in Parnassah is another) and they are pleased enough with the consequences that they have no interest in making serious changes.
Finally, we can argue about how to help “older” girls on another thread.
I have no shiddach crisis.
Semantics. It is like the old joke that someone loves getting the flu, it is just way down on the list of things that he loves.
The reason why that’s a joke rather than the truth is because liking less is entirely different than disliking. It’s not merely semantics at all.
but they did manipulate they system (as you point out one way
How did I say they manipulate the system? I think they deal with individuals, and maybe make policies for their yeshivos in the best interest of their yeshivos, but I don’t think they manipulate the klal.
“Agree with DY that the RY don’t believe in sacrificing the yochid for the greater good. And b”h for that, because the grounds for manipulating peoples’ life decisions here are far too shaky.
And in response to gavra, the girl had better not have that attitude, because she could as easily rechin that she is a reject of the entire yeshiva world (none of them were willing to marry her). Better to focus on each other’s positives and admit to one’s self that you may not be worthy of first cut (and better yet, expand your own worldview of what first cut means- that is not someone else’s job).
A girl can reasonably remain “idealistic” about learning only boys for a couple of years at best. After that, its time to broaden the search or be damned.”
This is the only comment that hits the nail on the head no wonder everyone’s ignoring it
How did I say they manipulate the system? I think they deal with individuals, and maybe make policies for their yeshivos in the best interest of their yeshivos, but I don’t think they manipulate the klal.
Manipulating for individuals (by making sure that there are girls for those many individuals to marry, or by maintaining the freezer for 1000+ bochrim) results in manipulating the Klal.
If anything, you are putting it way worse. At least I admit that the Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva care about the Klal, albeit certain members of the Klal (learning boys) over others (understandably). Your argument is that they don’t pay attention to the Klal at all, but rather focus ONLY on the very small picture of individuals, and maybe expand it to their own yeshiva. Not the sort of people that you want leading Klal Yisroel.
To your first point, I already agreed that they “care”, but not enough to do anything about it.
eric55 – nothing to be said about it. If only…. then we would be mostly solved. Which girl (or even more so, which sem teacher) is willing to admit that they are cut out for someone second class? There are other issues as well, and they are all true. I could (and have) rail against sem for hours. Sem (and its results) are (probably) a product of our society, not a cause.
making sure that there are girls for those many individuals to marry
What?
As I said, the freezer is not about manipulation, nor does it have a major effect.
Not the sort of people that you want leading Klal Yisroel.
Farkert, someone who would manipulate my son to marry someone who’s not best for him, or before he’s ready, is not someone I necessarily want as his rebbe.
Besides, being a rosh hayeshiva is mechayev you to your talmidim, but who says it makes you a leader of klal Yisroel?
As I said, the freezer is not about manipulation, not does it have a major effect.
I should have been clearer that was two separate points. I agree that the freezer is so that Bochrim should not go to Lakewood so that they can go out (not to manipulate the market, although it does have an effect to some (probably minor) degree). The promotion of Seminary is the bigger concern (as you know my views).
Farkert, someone who would manipulate my son to marry someone who’s not best for him, or before he’s ready, is not someone I necessarily want as his rebbe.
Besides, being a rosh hayeshiva is mechayev you to your talmidim, but who says it makes you a leader of klal Yisroel?
Good. Very good. I agree. When are you calling for the Moetzes (which is supposed to have the Klal’s interests in mind, not the Yechidim, unless you disagree?) to be run by Rabbonim instead of Roshei Yeshiva? How about communities (such as Lakewood)?
I know it is before your time, but this may be relevant as the “Lakewood Vaad” (representing BMG, the Roshei Yeshiva and “individuals”) vs. Rabbonim (representing the Klal).
Thoughts?
First of all Mr. Rechnitz is an amazing person as instead of talking he is actually doing. If you don’t like what he is spending money then spend your money on what you think it important.
When I pass a beautiful yeshivah building with someone’s name on it I also think wow couldn’t they have made that yeshivah half as nice and give the rest of the money to Rebbeiim teaching in the yeshiva or to poor people- but it’s not my money it’s the person who donated it’s money and he or she can give it to what they please.
When it comes to changing the attitude of the yeshivas, seminaries and everyone else is attitude that was suggested here i think we need to keep Mr. Rechnitz out the discussion and see how we can effect change ourselves.
More like, as leaders of klal yisroel their names are rubber stamped onto anything an asskan is passionate enough about whether they have enough information or not to put their name behind it.
When are you calling for the Moetzes (which is supposed to have the Klal’s interests in mind, not the Yechidim, unless you disagree?) to be run by Rabbonim instead of Roshei Yeshiva?
Of course the Moetzes is for the klal, and in their roles as Moetzes members, this is their focus. As roshei yeshiva, their focus needs to be on the yeshiva, and as rebbeim, on their talmidim. They often have roles as husbands and fathers as well. Sometimes there can be a conflict of interest between their various roles, and they have to do their best to figure out what the ratzon H’ is. Rabbonim also have conflicting interests, so I don’t see a huge benefit. We trust and hope that whichever RY or rabbonim we turn to will try to keep negius out of it.
Popa, yes, sometimes different approaches for different roles. Has a rosh yeshiva ever given you advice for yourself which is different than the overall approach in yeshiva? It’s happened to me, and I know of incidents with others as well.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.