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So, we keep talking about the “derech” and those who leave it. Is there a consensus as to what defines the “derech” that when one deviates, they are now off? I am not a chassidishe yid (insert any chassidus here), do not dress in the levush, daven in the same nusach, follow the psakim of the beis din or rebbe of the chassidus, I am clearly on a different derech than this chassidishe yid; as far as he is concerned I am off the derech, but am I off THE derech? Where does one draw the line to label someone off the drerech? How much bandwidth does this derech have, a derech that clearly accommodates many different people and has numerous lanes for travel, and at what point has one finally gone off onto the shoulder or taken an exit?
Apushat- what in the world makes you think that other people view you as off the Derech?
You said yourself that you do Mitzvahs and follow your Rav.
Are you really narrowminded enough to think that if you don’t wear “the levush” that some people decided is right to wear, then you’re not as good of a Yid?
If someone is a Satmar Chassid and becomes a follower of Rav Kook , Is he “Off the Derech?”
Smartcookie. Halivay your sentiment was one shared by Jews everywhere.
Apushatayid- I understand you. But if you’re REALLY confident that whatever you do is according to the Torah, then you shouldn’t care what others say.
People who don’t understand that there are so many different ways in Avodas Hashem are just stupid.
Yes, I’m Chassidish btw. But I don’t think I’m better because my husband wears a shtreimel, or because I cover my Sheitel. This is the way I was taught, and when I see different people, I believe they know what they’re doing(except if they’re going against Halacha.)
Please stick to friends who respect you for what you are, AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING YOUR BEST.
However, in this day and age, most young women are Niddos, and that in of itself is an ervah (not weighing in on Yichud, which may only be a Takana (depending on Pshat in Avoda Zara 36B)).”
Thank you for the source. I think the problem for me is that we are defining things in a very broad way, that are translated in a more specific way. Thus “erva” conceptually serves to cover the entire gamut of forbidden actions, when the word itself means nudity. In the broader sense, all the posts about it are more understandable.
smartcookie: How do you define “going against halachah”? R’ Moshe Feinstein held that an eruv in Brooklyn violated halachah and caused chillul Shabbos d’Oraysa. Many chassidim use an eruv. Does that violate halachah?
oomis1105:
Actually, an Ervah is someone who the Torah discribes with the term “Ervas ….. ” (that we lain on Yom Kippur Mincha). In the Gemorah, they are refered to collectivly as “The Arayos”, and in singular it would be “an Ervah” (IIRC).
Niddah is somewhat of a middle ground, not quite the status of a “real” Ervah (such as a sister in law, for example), but also not Muttar. I would have to do more research on the Gemorah there.
Feif- thank you for picking on the most controversial Halacha!
In such cases, each must follow their Rav and believe that way is right.my Rav allows the Eruv, so I use it. I can’t help anyone who thinks it’s wrong.
GAW: It’s a Machlokes between Tosafos and the Rambam whether or not Niddah is an Ervah.
oomis1105- Please take that story about the train with a grain of salt!! I know (personally) who you are refering to and you need to be aware that somethings are said to stress a point.
“People who don’t understand that there are so many different ways in Avodas Hashem are just stupid.”
It might be the reason they refer to certain people as “OTD”. Either way, since different people have different ideas when they talk about “the derech”, those same people have different ideas about what it means to be off. Which in turn leads to different answers to the question, why they go OTD.
To echo the sentiment of FeifUn (without taking this thread in the direction of whether one should or should use said eruvin). Have you ever seen the pamphlets for and against the eruvin in brooklyn?
GAW: It’s a Machlokes between Tosafos and the Rambam whether or not Niddah is an Ervah.
Sources? (Not arguing, just want to look it up myself).
In such cases, each must follow their Rav and believe that way is right.my Rav allows the Eruv, so I use it. I can’t help anyone who thinks it’s wrong.
In Jerusalem there are some who think its a big avarah to sell english Books, and they stop it
smartcookie: It’s the easiest example to pick, what did you expect?
sam2 and GAW- the gemara needs a limud and its a major sugya about kds of nidda not being mamzeirim.
ZD – I just want to say that I think the people in Meah Shearim that are doing these destructive things wouldn’t even listen to their rabbeim if told to stop. They are ungovernable and out of control.
Apushat- yes I saw the pamphlets. And I ignore them.
“wouldn’t even listen to their rabbeim if told to stop. They are ungovernable and out of control.”
Would anyone consider them OTD? 🙂
Apashut- people refer to them as Taliban. Is that any better?
But y’know something…I like OTD better for such behaving people. Very appropo.
I do have a serious question
When someone makes a wrong left-wing attempt at change All the Gedolim are quick to condem, but when someone makes a wrong right wing change, there is silence.
sam2 and GAW- the gemara needs a limud and its a major sugya about kds of nidda not being mamzeirim.
Aware. Thank you, but irrelevant to our current question.
Sam or Toi: A source for Yichud? Mashmaos in Rambam is that Niddah is included & Dioraysah, but I would love to see an explicit source.
“wouldn’t even listen to their rabbeim if told to stop. They are ungovernable and out of control.”
Would anyone consider them OTD? 🙂
100%.
The problem with stressing a point is when it involves extreme exaggeration. Kids who go mamesh OTD (meaning they are no longer Shomer Shabbos, kosher, possibly into drugs or alcohol, though not necessarily) often get disillusioned by hearing stories about such extreme behavior as was described. To them (and to me, I must admit) it is not praiseworthy that someone would consider jumping off a train and possibly killing himself, because he was in yichud with his own kallah. IMO it would have been more praiseworthy had he looked for a way to avoid the situation l’chatchilah, but given that he could not, to show that he is a trustworthy frum person even under this type of duress. Were there no other cars on the train? There surely was a conductor or engineer, so was he really in yichud?
My point is that you don’t impress kids who are already religiously in crisis, by telling them these types of maises. they go OTD because they feel disenfranchised, and do not care for the fact that they are thrown away. There are rabbonim and lay people who work with such kids with great success. They are patient, loving, and welcoming, not stern, judgmental and dismssive.
Off the Derech in my opinion is someone who just does what they want and follows their whims and desires. They can even look externally “frum” whatever that means these days…They live a life of convenience. If its convenient to text on Shabbos they text on Shabbos if its convenient to eat something non kosher they do that if its convenient to look at pritzus or do things that are pritzus they do that. They talk how they feel is convenient…in other words I think its prikos ol malchus shamayim. Whatever is easy convenient or pleasurable they are there regardless of what the Torah says about it.
WIY:
*LIKE*
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