- This topic has 170 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Hi, everyone. Gut voch and Shavua Tov. I’m the researcher who did this survey, so can I add some thoughts?
Our Business name is Nishma because we need to start listening to each other better within the Jewish people. That’s why we funded and did this study … because these people have never had a voice.
Let me first say that the survey is publicly available and please read it … everything is downloadable at link removed
I think Rav Fischer’s attitude (don’t listen to them, they are spinning a false story) is harmful. We are all jewish souls and deserve respect. I think Rav Fisher’s position creates lack of respect, to some extent, for the OTD person. Shouldn’t we hear them out, and then together discuss what they say are the reasons why they left, before dismissing them out of hand?
I do have to say that the vast majority of comments at the Cross-Currents responded to Rav Fischer with disagreement for his position. So I’m glad there are open-minded people willing to listen.
Anyway, as stated above, please read the study. There is also a pretty short summary version of it, and yu can read through that in 10 minutes, so read that if the full report is too long.
Nishma … let us all listen …. Thank you.
As Mark Twain once said there are Lies, Lies & Statistic most surveys are not accurate just look at election polls.
Sparkly: The reason that MO who attend who attended the Siyam Hashas learn the Daf is as follows:
1)The Young Israel have their own pod cast of the Daf.
2)Many Young Israels have their own shiur daily.
3)I don’t understand why someone who has no connection with learning would attend speeches about learning for over 6 hours.
4) There was a Siyam Hashas at Congregation Shearith Israel on the Upper West Side which is a MO synagogue.
Joseph, why someone like yourself have anything meaningful to offer in response as would you are not OTD? Just labeling their answers as self serving is an indicator your bias because the responses don’t meet with your preconceived notions
You asked: Were the survey participants self-selected (rather than being a true sampling of the demographic)? Was participation strongly solicited among footsteps members (who represented a large percent of the survey responses)? Have the authors of the survey addressed the issue of respondents providing self-serving responses to the questions?
Thease are good questions. The full report has a detailed description of the sample process and I encourage you to read it.
24% of respondents were Footsteps members, so they are not overly represented.
The question of the extent to which their responses were self-serving versus honest is of course one that is unanswerable. To not believe them and say they are spinning a positive story that is untrue would be to nullify what 885 people said. There are 12 pages of extensive verbatim comments towards the end of the full report, and I encourage you to read them. And let me know what you think; does it sound honest or not? I would love to get your thoughts on this.
I want to say again that we should not nullify these people. I think Rabbi Fischer’s unsubstantiated charge that he just threw out there gave a lot of people an excuse to shut their minds to the responses and thus is harmful. Listen to these people. That is why we devoted eight months and a lot of money to the study. Because it is important that we hear what they’re saying so that we can understand what is going on. Thank you.
Nishma – In the USA people are entitled to voice their opinions. A survey was made and Rabbi Fisher disagreed with the survey’s conclusion. You want to dispute Rabbi Fishers findings without explaining what Rabbi Fisher’s finding are by having us reading 12 pages of verbatim comments. How is reading 12 pages going to refute R Fisher’s finding if you haven’t explain what they are? Two people can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions.
Are there any studies that look at one’s place on the derech over a lifespan?
Do a significant # of otd-now people come closer to the derech when they’re older? Perhaps if/when someone is an empty nester?
Or when one is in his or her 70’s, 80’s, 90’s+?
I ask because, at least in my shul, a lot of people become more religious after they retire. Maybe that’s different than one who adamantly went off the derech when he or she was younger, compared to a less observant Jew becoming more observant in time.
Still I wonder if people have a change of heart or thought later on in life. My rabbi said that sometimes having grandchildren really changes a person and he or she starts becoming more religious to connect with his or her grandchild[ren].
Thank you
joseph – i dont know if thats so true since i know many adults who are still otd to this very day. (40 years old about)
Sparkly: Thank you for your input and feedback about your observations. I see what you’re saying. Being otd for a decade, two, or more is a lot of life to live. Furthermore, these 40yo that you know may in fact never return to the derech. Thus you mention it because from the looks of it, there is no way of their ever returning.
That said, IMHO 40yo is the new 25. Okay maybe 30. Meaning, men at age 40 can be at the prime of their careers. Women as well. There is still a lot to conquer. Even if someone doesn’t have a job, or family, depending on one’s surroundings, being 40 is still on the hike up the mountain of life. Later, once individuals have reaped the rewards of living/breathing without the reins of Orthodoxy perhaps.
After one has plateaued at the peak and re-evaluates one’s priorities and desires, outlooks can change. One may look at life like a descent down the mountain. With conscious desire to contribute to the next generation.
I bring up this picture because once I had a college professor explained to us that once he turned 50, his outlook changed. He used to look at life like a mountain. At our age the sky is the limit. There is no limit. We look up the climb and only see the clouds. He used to be that person. Now he sees things downhill. He feels the need to pass on information to the future generations. His life has an endpoint on earth. Thinking about that, he is working backwards to fill his life with meaning.
With that in mind, it was not just this one professor who emphasized this paradigm shift. One’s perception of time changes as one ages. Later in life, one may have more time to contemplate once he or she has been-there and done-that.
A number of long-term goals have hopefully and if so, B”H, been achieved. Now what? Is there a yearning for Hashem? A yearning for the traditions of youth? A realization that one may not be so different than one’s parents. Forgiveness for the derech? A renewed look into Hashem?
Also, illness can also have an affect on one’s desire to connect to the Creator. Whether it is one’s personal battle or seeing a family member or friend in pain, in times of anguish, when one has no control, who does one cry out to? Hashem? And whose Hashem? The Hashem that one was too-cool-for-skool about back in his 40’s when he didn’t need him and could depend on himself and buddies alone? Or the Hashem from childhood that reminds him of his mother?
Because at the end of the day, do we not generally find ourselves needing someone’s unconditional love to comfort us when we need safety, even if it is only a fantasy of it?
I wonder.
Thank you
Sparkly – most means more than half, so even if Joseph is right that most OTD’s come back, there might still be many that don’t.
Also, I assume that Joseph is referring to people who are now in their teens and 20’s. People in their 40’s were from a different generation (that was before OTD became “a thing”) so things might have been different, and the reasons why people went off and whether or not they came back might have been different.
The whole kids-at-risk/OTD phenomenon of today only started app. 20 years ago or less, so most of the kids who were part of that phenomenon are now 30-35 at the most.
In any case, I think it’s true that a lot come back but I don’t know if it’s most or not. It is probably a much larger percentage than the percentage of not-Frum people who end up becoming bt’s which is a comforting thought. It means that their education was not a waste! And that whatever complaints people might have about the Yeshiva system, it’s doing a very good job, since even those who go off (which is a minority to begin with) are more likely to end up Frum than people who do not have a Yeshiva education.
OTD is not 20 years old, jews have been going OTD since the days of the Golden Calf.
It did reach its heyday in the 19th and 20th Century due to external factors in the greater world (The Haskallah was just basically piggybacking on them). That 80-85% of jews are not religious today is a testament to that factor
There isnt much difference today than there was 150 years ago except because of technology we are more aware of things outside our normal sphere of knowledge. There is a video from 1933 from Munkatch of various scenes from Munkatch and one of them is the Munkatcher Rebbe giving Tochacha to american jews for not keeping Shabbos. You can see the video on Youtube.
If you think most are coming back, you are probably only fooling yourself. Most do not come back and unless we are willing to admit to ourselves why the left in the first place , not much will change
Joseph, what study did you use to prove that most OTD come back? Did you verify that the respondents weren’t self selected? How could you tell that the answers weren’t self-seeking?
Zahavasdad- I didn’t say that OTD is 20 years old- I said that the OTD phenomenon of today is approximately 20 years old. There have always been some Jews who have gone off, but there is a specific plague today that there are an unusually large number, as many experts in the field and leaders in Am Yisrael have written and spoken about.
lightbrite – psychology proved what you were saying about 50 looking back and passing on information to the next generation.
lilmod ulelamaid – they even talk about people who went off in the Torah. i am VERY bad at remembering names so im sure you can guess who im referring to.
The reason its a larger number than before is because there are more frum jews than before and another reason is that issues that might have been issues swept under the carpet and people lived with, they are not willing to live with anymore (IE abuse)
I just read in my psychology textbook that even when adolescents reject their family’s values, they often come back to them in the end (and this was talking about Goyim who don’t have Toras Emes like we do.
OTD has always existed to some extent, but there is a specific plague today of OTD. Most of these kids need psychological help and when/if they work on that, they do come back. Of course, it is not always easy for them to get the help they need, since it is not a simple thing, and unfortunately, many of them OD meanwhile. But the point is that most do want to come back and if their issues are worked out, do come back. No sane person would leave Yiddishkeit by choice!!! We are so lucky to have the Torah and anyone who leaves it has some kind of issue that needs worked out.
Lilmod, where did you get the idea that until recently OTD, only happened to some extent. During those times when the larger society imposed fewer religious restrictions, timbers was a greater tendency for Jews to go OTD. During the second Beis Hamikdosh, many Jews became Hellenists. In the early 1800’s the granting by Napoleon of citizenship to Jews was followed by the news leaving the yeshivas. Eastern European jews stayed on the derech because the Hapsburgs and the Romanovs gave them no choice. However, with he unrest in the late 1800s more and more young Jews went OTD and it accelerated after WW1. And I’m not even talking about the tens of thousands of immigration the US who went OTD ( Joseph, how many of them came back? )
lesschumrahs – please reread what I wrote. I didn’t say that it didn’t happen My point was that the OTD of today is a specific phenomenon that started around 20 years or so years ago. There may have been other times and places where there may have been a lot of people going OTD for different reasons and in different ways. When people write and speak about kids going off the derech, they are speaking about something that has been happening in the US and Israel for the past 20 years. There may have been others (maybe even a lot of others) who went OTD in other generations and places, but that is not what they are speaking about. Every generation is different and has its own issues.
In each generation, when people went off, it was for different reasons and in different amounts. In Europe, I think it was the Enlightenment and Reform, etc. In Israel, it was the Zionists. When people came to the US in the 1800’s and first half of 1900’s, it was because of a lack of Yeshiva Education and Frum infrastructure. Nowadays, it ‘s not for any of those reasons, so educators have to figure out why.
btw, this is a side issue, but I am not a baki in history, but my impression is that for most of the years when we were based in Europe (at least up unti the 1800’s approximately), the numbers of people going OTD were much smaller than today. Even if that is not the case, it has nothing to do with what I wrote.
Before the Enligtenment (General enlightenment not Haskallah) it was illegal in Europe not to be religious. You had to belong to a religion. However In France the church was seen as corrupt and when Napoleon conqured Europe and you were no longer forced to worship in a religion as Napoleon conqured Europe. And unfortunatly not all Rabbanim of local towns were so on the up and up either and people left because of those who were not up to the job
Regarding the NISHMA survery, I dont know if I’m parsing words needlessly, but the survey seems to address why people leave THEIR Orthodox community, not THE Orthodox community? Meaning, a member of a chassidishe community leaves the community he was raised in and still claims adherence to taryag mitzvos, but now as a member of say the local Young Israel and not the chassidus. This person is still a shomer torah umitzvos, but is not part of his original community. Were the questions asked with the premise “why did you leave your orthodox community” or were they asked “why are you no longer Orthodox as part of any Orthodox community”?
lilmod ulelamaid – which psychology class are you taking? btw you dont need to read your textbook at all to get an a in psychology. just memorize everything your teacher tells you to. that class is a joke but very interesting i got a in all my psychology classes b’H.
People go OTD for many reasons.
However, there are different types of being OTD.
There are people who are psychologically healthy who just don’t believe.
Then there are those who are troubled, victims of abuse, unloving parents, cruel rabbis, who suffer from addictions and mental illness. My heart truly bleeds for these people.
dovrosenbaum – i dont believe people would go otd because of their teachers because otherwise id be otd.
There are people who are psychologically healthy who just don’t believe.
In general religion is on the decline in western civilization and trends affected the general popultion do trickle down to the frum population.
The fastest growing religion in the US is NO religion
zahavasdad – it is a religion its called athisiem (just joking just because so many people are considered athiest why not consider it a religion?).
Most people are not Atheists, they are Agnostic. There is a big difference
Atheists are generally anti-religion. Agnostics are just non-religious.
zahavasdad – that is not true. athiest arent against religions. definition of athiest according to wiki “a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods”.
I said generally against relgion. its the Atheists who want to remove in god we trust from the bills. Its the Atheists who run Pork Festive meals on Yom Kippur.
Agnostics want to eat at home on Yom Kippur and go to the mall on Shabbos, not run a shuttle bus to the mall on shabbos.
Many agnostics are atheists. Many atheists are agnostic.
An atheist is someone who is sure that there is no G-d (or any kind of god, lhavdil). An agnostic is someone who isn’t sure if there is a G-d.
That’s why some say it’s impossible to be an atheist – because how can you be sure that G-d doesn’t exist?
Here’s a joke: Did you hear what happened to the dyslexic insomniac agnostic?
he was up all night wondering if there really was a dog.
apushatayid: How did you know that? That joke was made up by a student of mine years ago.
Did you figure out the answer or have you heard the joke before?
A theist is a believer in God or in any kind of deity. An atheist is someone who is not a theist. A gnostic is someone who knows. An agnostic is someone who doesn’t know for certain.
That’s why some say it’s impossible to be an atheist – because how can you be sure that G-d doesn’t exist?
Nobody can read anyone elses mind and know what is in their heart
Zahavasdad – it has to do with logic. Since it’s impossible to prove that G-d doesn’t exist, some say that it’s impossible for someone to “know 100%” that G-d doesn’t exist (kaviyachol).
Since G-d does exist, it’s impossible for someone to “know” that he doesn’t.
it has to do with logic. Since it’s impossible to prove that G-d doesn’t exist, some say that it’s impossible for someone to “know 100%” that G-d doesn’t exist (kaviyachol).
We have Faith not logic. You have to prove a positive, not a negative. “Prove to me I wont win the Lottery tommorrow” . You cant prove such a thing. However I can prove to you that I won the lottery, if I show you a winning lottery ticket
We have emunah in hashem existance
I really dont want to defend the atheists position, I am only giving what their position is from people who have told me they are one
zahavasdad – unfortunately their are jews that are athiest meaning they dont believe in Hashem like all the OTD people.
Zahavas dad – the Jewish concept of Emunah is different than the goyish one. They believe that faith runs counter to logic as in “having a leap of faith.” Many converts say that when they asked questions to their priests, they were not given answers, and they were just told to have faith.
Emunah is connected to the word “Emes”. Emunah means “knowing”, not just believing. Emunah is based on logic, not a suspension of logic.
Regarding the atheists, as you wrote: We have Faith not logic. You have to prove a positive, not a negative. “Prove to me I wont win the Lottery tommorrow” . You cant prove such a thing. However I can prove to you that I won the lottery, if I show you a winning lottery ticket
That is EXACTLY my point. Since you can’t prove a negative, the atheist can’t prove that G-d doesn’t exist, and therefore he can’t say that he knows for sure that G-d doesn’t exist.
On the other hand, we can say that we know that G-d exists since it is a positive, and as you wrote, one can prove a positive.
lilmod ulelamaid – thats the reason why i cant seem to understand why they dont stop keeping their obviously false religion. i really want to ask one of them but i know if i do thered be an argument so i wont.
Most OTD people are NOT atheist. I have worked with many young people who were at-risk or off-the-derech. Most Jews nowadays do not stop being Frum for theological reasons. They usually stop being Frum for emotional/psychological reasons. Many of them want to be Frum, and want to resolve their issues so that they can go back to being Frum. Two different girls who were off the Derech told me that they really wanted to go back to being Frum one day, but they felt that they had to work out their issues first. One of them did go back to being Frum (I am not in touch with the other one so I don’t know).
I know a social worker who worked with young people who were at-risk or Off the Derech. The social worker herself was not Frum (she was Conservative), but she got many of these people to return to Frumkeit. Basically, she helped them with their emotional issues, and once those were resolved, they returned to Yiddishkeit.
The reason for their going off the derech was obviously because of their emotional issues. That’s why as soon as those were taken care of, they came back.
Nishma -I would like to know from you an aspect of how the survey was conducted. Were there multiple choice questions or were they required to write out their own personal answer in full? If the latter, how did you mark an answer like, “I had many doubts and questions and I didn’t feel like anyone care enough about me to answer them.”? Did you mark that as “Had questions and Doubts” or “Didn’t feel Loved”?
The way one marks that answer plays a VERY significant role in relating to these young people and their needs. The prior needs “answers”. The latter needs “love, warmth, and understanding”. For the latter ALL answers fall on deaf ears being that answers is not truly what they seek; rather recognition.
Also, there is an apparent mistaken conclusion in your survey. You say that only a small percentage (I believe it was about 8%) went OTD because of internet. What you didn’t take in to consideration is where they found questions that weakened their faith (which was your number one reason given). I’m sure very few people (at least in the Chareidi circle) were exposed to questions that challenge the legitimacy of the Torah on the streets and being that most don’t go to Universities they didn’t get exposed there either. So where do you think they were exposed to such questions (such as legitimacy of the Exodus)? Obviously, on line. Thus, in truth, the internet has been a gateway of falling away from Torah to many of these kids even if they don’t realize that themselves and answer otherwise.
I think the worst part about your survey is that it was done by people that are not intimately familiar with a Torah way of life and thus there was left plenty of room for making mistakes that a Chareidi Jew would have deciphered more correctly due to his better understanding of the frum psyche. Unfortunately, I feel that in the end your survey does more harm to these people than help for in the end if the conclusions are off the mark these people will not receive the proper programs to help them heal.
Imagine that an OTD really is looking for emotional support, understanding, and above all LOVE from his family and community. If instead, due to your conclusions that it is lack of faith that caused their OTD, you will create programs to help them find meaning and purpose and introduce them to outlooks that are congruent to a secular society. You will also create social environments for them to become members of. But in the end they will remain broken because deep in their hearts what they really want is to hear their mothers or fathers say, “I love you unconditionally with all my heart”! So what good have you done them?
lilmod ulelamaid – what kinds of issues can they have that took them away from yidishkeit? i mean ive gone thru lots of hard times with schools, lots of other hard stuff in life. the only reason why im still frum is for G-d. thats why its hard for me to understand why someone would go otd for so called “issues”.
With much respect and admiration for your perseverance and belief in G-d despite hardship, different people are different and different events affect them differently. Just because you didn’t go OTD because of certain circumstances, doesn’t mean the same situation might not leave another person shattered enough to seek elsewhere.
I believe every person who goes OTD will be judged according to his capabilities. On a personal note, I also went through a hard time as a teen (okay, a very hard time.) I also happen to find that my greatest satisfaction in life comes from spiritual fulfillment and connection to G-d. It’s something I was born more connected to – I do not take credit for it. Since this was the case, I knew if I made the wrong choices it’ll affect the way I truly want to live my life, and I’d only be punishing myself. That’s not to say I didn’t seriously consider it sometimes. People are complex.
And people are different. There are teens whose need for love is so great that they will go to whatever lengths they feel they need to get it – including going OTD. I will never attempt to judge such a person – AT ALL. But I do wish they knew the truth and would have found love in the right places.
Yes, I also believe curiosity, ta’avah and attraction to the non-Jewish culture is a driving force in certain people’s path OTD – particularly adults who leave the fold. (And yes, they prob felt that way for years.)
As a teen, I read the Chorev, Derech Hashem, parts of Cjovos Halevavos, Mesilas Yesharim, anti-missionary materials, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s books, the Kuzari, R’Moshe Eiseman’s books, Beyond Your Ego and many others. There are answers if you are looking. I also was not afraid to ask some really provocative questions – and believe it or not- I got answers most of the time, and I did not feel shunned. Maybe it was because I had all the correct outer trappings of a model Bais Yaakov girl.
Anyway, I think Klal Yisroel is the most beautiful nation – look how many of us stay strong despite temptation, whatever form it may take! And look how many of us yearn to do the right thing despite the way we actually may conduct our lives.
To whoever took the time to read this: Thank you!
I had nothing to do with the survey. If you dont like the survery. You are free to go through the trouble and make your own survey.
Its easy to critize the survey. Its much harder to correct it of any flaws you perceive it as having
zahavasdad – but dont quote off a badly done survey.
Sparkly: That’s a question that I have often wondered about because I too have had a very difficult life but never considered going off. But then I realized that you really can’t compare one person’s life to another. There are so,so, many factors that go into making us who we are. There is natural intelligence, how well we do in school, our families including every aspect of each person in our families, our natural personalities and traits, our communities, etc, etc. So it is really difficult to compare one person’s life to another and explain why one person turned out differently than another.
Here’s a thought: Whenever people hear about a kid-at-risk, they ask, “What went wrong? Why did he turn out like that?” Maybe, instead when a kid turns out fine, we should be asking, “Wow! What went right? Why did he turn out like that?”
I think one of the problems with our generation is that we take too much for granted. We assume that everything SHOULD go right and then we wonder when things dont – whether it’s kids-at-risk or the shidduch crisis.
Do you realize how many things have to fall into place in order for things to work out right? I am Frum today because of everything my parents did for me, everything my teachers did for me, my G-d given intelligence and ability to succeed in school, my natural passion for Truth and Spirituality, my G-d given personality traits, the wonderful community I grew up in, etc,etc.
Well, what if someone was missing one of those factors? What if he/she was stupid and felt like a failure at school? What if he couldn’t understand WHY he should be Frum because it had never been explained to him or because his ability to think clearly was blocked by learning disabilities and depression? What if he was abused or molested by the person or one or the people whom he trusted the most in the world -the person who was telling him to be Frum and molested or abused him in the name of Yiddishkeit?
A large percentage of kids-at-risk and OTD’s were molested. Someone in the field told me that %99 of girls-at-risk and 95% (maybe it was 90%) of boys-at-risk were molested. Those figures do sound a bit high, but this was said by someone very involved, so they can’t be completely off. Even if it’s 50%, that explains half of the cases.
Most of them are suffering from depression. Even though you might claim that you have also been depressed, there are many levels of depression, and one has no shaychus to the other. I am sure that you have found in your own life that the word “depressed” had very different meanings at different times of your life. So it is possible that there are people who have felt depressed in a way that you can’t even imagine.
In any case, it is great that you feel connected enough to Hashem to stay Frum, and hopefully others who do not feel that way will learn to feel that way.
There was really nothing wrong with the survey. Unfortunatly many are unwilling to accept the survey or its results.
Of course there are flaws, any survey has flaws. Its impossible to make a perfect survey.
You cant make a survey with the following question either, Its just as flawed
Q) Why did you leave Yiddishkeit?
1) I’m Lazy
2) I was abused
3) I want freedom
you will also get a flawed result
Some of the people who go OTD , go because they have no other option. They want to be relgious, but they dont want to be Charedi. for whatever reason. The men dont want to wear Peyos and a Beard and maybe the women want to drive.
By basically saying that more moderate versions of orthodoxt like MO are basically reform, you are totally chasing these people away.
One can be a frum man without Peyos and one could be a frum woman who drives , but according to some this is not the case and a slipperly slope ensures and they totally leave.
lilmod ulelamaid – if you knew what i go thru and i still am frum and what i went thru and still am frum than you wouldnt say well they have issues and so on believe me i know MANY girls who went otd who had much better lives than me. the ONLY and literally ONLY reason why im still frum is because i believe in Hashem so much so that i do EVERYTHING for Him. if not for Him why should i be frum?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.