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It could very well be the other way around.
1. According to Faranak Margolese (“Off the Derech”) the most common reason why people go OTD is because of negative religious figures. In fact, I personally know someone who went OTD (and baruch Hashem came back) because of the blatant contradiction between what his father preached and what he sold in his business.
2. Becoming BT does not change one’s basic personality. Each person becomes the type of frum Jew that parallels what he was in his secular life. For example, an academic type will be drawn to a yeshivish life-style whereas someone who is more emotional will be drawn to Chassidut.
Avi K – thanks for your post. I don’t know why no-one mentioned Mrs. Margolese’s book before. It sounds like her conclusions differ from this survey’s conclusions. One could conclude that her religious beliefs affected her results. However, one must admit that her methodology of personally interviewing her subjects one on one is far superior to their impersonal cold calls to absolute strangers. I have personally excepted to be surveyed many times on various topics and I must say that never have I been given an opportunity to explain or expound. You must answer the survey only by choosing one of the answers they provide (answers in which the surveyor is not allowed to clarify if unclear to the respondent). This leads room for inaccuracy.
Ms Margolese went OTD herself for a while and then came back which is why she wrote the book.
Can you get Ms Margolese book in the library?
I unfortunately have become acquainted recently with several people who have children who have gone off the derech, and it seems the most common reason the OTD adult kids give is that for a long time before going oTD they felt frumkeit was not the lifestyle for them as it was too restrictive and too limiting, and to a couple more restrictive than it needs to be as society places chumras upon chumras. I don’t think one needs a survey to conclude why people go off the derech. And it’s not as if Yiddishkeit would or should change to keep them. But somehow some of them find their way back, and just as nonfrum have a turning point when they decide to become observant, it works the other way as well.
flatbusher – thats why mo is meant for those kinds of people because they can keep shabbos and kosher while living a “not frum life” day by day because they can ask whatever question they want, they can do whatever they want while still believing in Hashem and keeping the most important basics which are shabbos and kosher.
Softwords- “Also, if I don’t know a single soul who’s a Homosexual why would I be so bothered by the Torah’s condemnation of homosexuality that I’d throw everything away?!”
Many of the people surveyed do in fact know gay people. I don’t think one needs to know gay people to feel like that, as it happens, but it’s still a point worth making.
Also, thanks for reading the actual survey, and taking the (an) intended purpose for it- looking at results to see if we can combat them. Seeing how so many are that disenfranchised by a lack of answered questions, we can answer the questions. Hopefully that can prevent more people from going OTD. So I don’t know why people are condemning the survey- maybe they just don’t want to know…
Sparkly- is that really the attitude you have as an NCSY advisor? MO=”do whatever you want while still believing in Hashem and keeping…shabbos and kosher”? How do you get away with that? And incriminating from the other side is the idea that if you’re not MO you can’t ask questions…
I’ve saidrhuspoint in other threads. Perhaps third of my yeshiva high school class from fifty years ago went OTD because the rebbe’s screamed at us if we asked questions. By the time we had a Rebbe in our senior year shows willing and ready to answer, many of the boys were no longer interested in asking.
Spark: Maybe for some but for others, even MO is too restrictive. And it doesn’t necessarily come because of outside influences. In at least two cases, I could tell that these kids at a very young age (5 or so) were rebellious and could not be reined in. The parents did make a strong effort, but where the will is elsewhere, it seems there is no way to keep them frum. One acquaintance of mine who was chassidic said as a youth he played the part but never believed any of it. Nu, how do you deal with that?
writersoul – NCSY is there to get teens to learn more about their religion. They wont force religion on them. They let them ask however many questions they want. In the frum community they do not allow people to ask whatever they want like questions asking if G-d really exists. Also, i do keep tznius and all that stuff just that my rabbi is mo and i keep more than what he says to keep i use to be yeshivish now im regular but have a mo rabbi.
lesschumras – Exactly thats what got the guys to go off because they werent alowed to ask questions so how could they believe in something they dont know so much about? Which is why people need to keep asking the questions and believing.
Lesschumras: Fifty years ago most of the Rebbiam survived the war and couldn’t understand American kids. Many students acted frum just to graduate high school. Once they got into college they were free and drifted away from Judaism.
Now a days teachers take more of an interest in their students and can spot student that are starting to go off the derech. The teachers try to get them back on track before they go off the derech. Even the Hasidic schools have these type of programs this reduces the percentage that actually go off the derech.
This is a question for coffee room posters. Why is everyone saying that by going to college that will cause a person to go off the derech? Am i missing something?
Abba-S – Unfortunately many people have gone off the derech because of their teachers. So many teachers unfortunately did the exact opposite of stopping people from going off the derech. Example was earlier given by lesschumras.
Sparkly- that’s kind of sad. Both the way you see MO as seemingly a secondary permissive movement for people who can’t handle the “real thing” (or so it seems from what you say- forgive me if I’m wrong) and that you assume that yeshivish people will never be able to ask/answer questions.
Joseph- really? In a survey? If you asked someone OTD what his/her favorite book was, would you be able to trust them? If you asked them their opinion on the news, would you not be able to trust them? If you would, then don’t pull that out now specifically for this. If you wouldn’t, then admit it straight out in the beginning without twists and turns of specious criticisms of methodology.
Joseph, neither does someone who says lashon hara, cheats in business, steals from government programs, etc. I wonder how many kosher eidim are left.
One of the questions needing clarity is understanding why many (or most) kids at one point or another experience something bad such as a horrible Rebbe or the like and don’t go off the Derech just because of that while others do. There must be something deeper than just a bad experience or questions unanswered that are the root of the cause.
To be honest and don’t as of yet know what the common denominator is and I don’t think this survey has gotten to it yet as well. Perhaps we have some information that might help, but we’re not there yet.
Sparkly – While there are going to be teachers who rub their students the wrong way, there are usually underlying factors that cause them to go off the derech. You can’t blame it total on the teachers, the home and outside environment play a major part in it. Back 50 years ago there were a few Rabbis such as R’ Avigdor Miller who would answer any questions no matter how anti religious it was. His book Rejoice O Youth should be required reading as it answers many of the questions that people going off the derech ask.
Avi K: You do realize that by wondering how many Kosher Eidim are left, you re saying that the majority of witnesses are not kosher. Jewish Weddings would be invalid due to non kosher Eidim as only Kosher Eidim make the wedding valid. The only explanation is that he repents prior to or at least as he is going up to be a witness.
writer soul – do you know what type of MO im referring to? Its the type that literally only keeps shabbos and kosher and believes in Hashem nothing else. Which means the girls wear pants, dont keep shomer, etc…. I keep tznius and shomer tho….. And no they would not let me ask questions in a more yeshivish environment so much so that when im with my yeshivish friends i dont talk to them about it.
Abba, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky was once asked why the children of someone who learned (or more appropriately, studied) every day went OTD while the children of an ordinary baal bayit stayed frum. He said that the former bragged about cheatng in business whereas the latter was scrupulously honest. Rav Moshe balme it on the expression “shver tzu zein a Yid”. the kids don’t want another difficulty.
Avi K : In today’s day & age it’s very easy to be a frum Jew, there are all types of programs to help you. R’ Moshe was talking about 1950-1970 when there wasn’t the social services that we have today and it wasn’t easy to get job and be shomer shabbos. R’ Yaakov may have known something about the person in question but just to slander everyone that had a child go OTD and say he is a thief or cheat, I think is not right. There are people not in business, in chinuch or learning whose children went OTD. Are you claiming they too are cheaters? I think that the child who comes from a learned family, was under a lot of pressure to succeed in learning (more then his friends) and he rebels. Every action has a reaction resulting in him going completely OTD.
It is not as easy to be a frum jew as you think. Direct Anti-semitism is not really an issue in the US anymore, but there are other things that are issue.
many jobs require you to work late or on weekends (Sometimes you get make trades, sometimes you cant)
Many people need to have Power Lunches or similar and since it isnt kosher, you cant really participate. You might have a boss who is a woman and you have to be very careful how you behave around her.
Food is not as much an issue in NYC area, but leave NYC and food IS an issue, kosher food is not so easy to get
In general societies response to relgion is Live and let live meaning you can be as relgious or not as you want to be, However you cannot impose your religious belifes on others, you cannot do kiruv on the job, you cannot make comments about Avodah Zarah, “Alternative Lifestyles” or anything else you might have learned in yeshiva, these are grounds for termintion
Sparkly- certainly I know people who are like that. I also know MO people who are not, or who do things that I may not do but which they do on the advice of their rabbis. I feel like a bit more nuance might be wanted here- both on MO and the yeshivish world, as both seem to have dimensions beyond your experiences. I hope that yeshivish people can ask questions, and if they can’t then I hope it’s an individual problem or institutional problem and not one across the whole subgroup. And of course MO isn’t a code word for “doesn’t care.”
Joe- fine. I already mentioned that I don’t buy it, but if you’re standing behind it, go ahead.
writersoul- i was once yeshivish and only was friends with yeshivish people now im mostly friends with mo people and am the more frumer one. when i was yeshivish i almmost went otd and then i became mo and am not going to go otd because i was allowed to ask questions that yeshivish people wouldnt allow me to.
A mechallel Shabbos has no chezkas kashrus, so a survey of OTD folks is unreliable and untrustworthy.
Heh… I can see it now. Joseph is having an OTD person(well call him Abe) over for dinner.
“So, would you like chicken or beef? I prepared both,” Joseph asks.
“Hmmm, I think I’ll have the chicken.”
“Of course,” says Joseph. “But since you’re a mechallel Shabbos and are not trustworthy to tell the truth, I think you really prefer the beef. I’ll bring that out.”
The Wolf
@wolfish–LOL. I am also not sure Joseph is correct anyway, as from my recollection, which certainly is not perfect, only a mechalel Shabbos befarhesya loses chezkas kashrus. And that requires ten (probably frum) men.
So, not counting those who drive through orthodox neighborhoods on Shabbos, that would mean most have a chezkas kashrus.
miami lawyer – true.
Anyone who commits any aveira, Torah or rabbinic is disqualified (Choshen Mishpat 34,1-3) until he is punished by a bet din or does teshuva (ibid seif 29). This, in fact, was the basis for Rav Moshe disqualifying non-Orthodox weddings. However, a person must be disqualified by a bet din after testimony regarding him.which means two, not ten (ibid seif 25). It would seem though that according to Rav Moshe there would be an anan sahadei, which works like official testimony, where it is known that people are connected to certain non-Orthodox groups.
The distinction between someone who is mechalel Shabbat in public and in private only refers to treating him like a gentile (e.g. rendering his wine non-kosher).
Someone who eats non kosher food can’t be relied upon to certify that food is kosher. However if the person said the assailant wore a green coat he should be believed to catch the culprit.(note not in Jewish court)
@Avik. First of all, I will say straight away that It has been about 20 years since I learned these halachos.
Also, you are arguing nuance, when my point is that technically, most jews have a chezkas kashrus.
relying on what you wrote, there is an inherent issue, which you appear to recognize. Specifically, even according to your definition, you need two male frum halacachic witnesses to testify before a beit din. This does not typically happen.
Also, the non-orthodox wedding is a totally different issue for a host of reasons including that there, you actually need eidim to attest to the marriage. Here, you are discussing when some loses chezkas kashrus instead of obtains marriage. Its different.
Writersoul, thanks for being the voice of reason here.
Sparkly- I’m glad that you found answers in MO. But the fact that you didn’t get them in the yeshivish community doesn’t necessarily mean that the yeshivish world never gives them or can’t. It is true that they aren’t available nearly often enough.
jfem- my absolute pleasure- and it’s very rewarding 😛
writersoul – its better for people to be mo than otd so maybe some of those otd teens should have been mo instead of otd and they could have found their answers there (or became mo).
1) As I mentioned in one of my posts, one of the groups behind this survey is Project Makom, which is trying to do what you describe. They are using survey data in order to make programming for that purpose.
2) MO is definitely better than OTD, but it’s not inherently worse than yeshivish/chassidish, either.
3) It’s not like “if you’re going to go OTD, then you may as well become MO.” You need to have solid reasons to stay frum, including MO (which is what Makom’s working on), because many of the surveyed MO people left frumkeit because they didn’t believe in God anymore, which as far as I know is still a requirement in MO. A lot of the feminist stuff is only somewhat resolved in the majority of MO communities (and for the record, I think that without using the “f-word,” you can be a lot more menschlich and equitable to women than people already are in the yeshivish world without messing with halacha one iota, and I think that many MO communities are on the ball with that), and plenty of it is unresolvable. So it’s not like these people with these specific hangups may as well have just become MO. In fact, many of Project Makom’s members never even had a crisis of faith at all- they started leaning away from religion, or away from charedi life to MO life, as the case may be, for purely sociological reasons (lack of education and skills, desiring more exposure to the outside world, etc). If that’s why people leave religion, then promoting MO hashkafic thought is certainly beneficial. But if the person is having a genuine crisis of faith, then yeshivish, chassidish, and MO are all the same.
I agree, if the yeshivish/chassidish communities do want to keep people on, they need to work more on answering questions, being open, etc. If people find more answers in MO, good for them as well (I do certainly believe they’re easier to get there). But people who genuinely have reached the point where they no longer believe will find both approaches equally non-compelling.
writer soul – I agree because in MO they do believe in Hashem and do keep shabbos and kosher its for people who need a more lenient lifestyle (like me) but still wanna keep as much as they can but most only keep shabbos and kosher while i keep tznius and other stuff as well but im not yeshivish and not mo just that my rabbi is mo. (unless you consider that i do talk to the other gender but keep shomer mo). also mo people dont always say bad words, i dont know where you got that from. people who go completely otd probably dont believe in Hashem and your right theyll go off no matter if their chasidish or yeshivish or chasidish.
LOL I meant feminism 🙂 🙂 🙂 There is no way that would have gotten through modding otherwise…
What I’m saying is that I really don’t think MO is a compromise. It’s a different derech. In your experience you may see it differently, which with no offense intended I think is a shame, but I know many fervently committed and fully shomer Torah uMitzvos MO Jews who are just as “legit” as any yeshivish or chassidish person. It might be a different hashkafa, but it’s not lesser- perhaps more palatable, but not watered down.
Everyone uses bad words.
If you want to hear the other side, Google rabbi David sperber modern orthodoxy true orthodoxy.
In a nutshell, he argues that prior to the Chatam Soffer, Jews lived among society and made changes within halachic parameters. . That ultra orthodoxy is actually the newer phenomenon created to combat reform.
Even though I know you disagree, I found it an interesting 45 minutes.
Miamilawyer, every development in Judaism was created and evolved to deal with the exigencies of the times. Rambam wrote the Guide to deal with the problem of perplexed students of Aristotelian philosophy. The Chassidic movement rose to keep the ignorant masses within the fold and when it wentto far the Mitnaggedic movement rose. This si why we are told to listen to the judges in our time. Dor, dor v’dorshav.
miamilawyer – i know many people who would agree with him.
@Avik. Yes, that is largely R’ Sperbers point. Torah is eitz chayim hi and while the trunk remains, the leaves fall off and get replaced and the poskim used to make calls in each generation, and often the trend toward lechumra (or Chadash, assur min hatorah as it was meant by the Chatam Sofer) is new and in his opinion, not preferable. In his opinion, the Chatam soffer would not even say that today or at least not take it as far as charedim have.
as far as listening to judges of the times, the question of course is which judges? Joseph (and others) take the position that MO is not really lechatchilah, and R’ Sperber presents the other side of the coin if you are interested over about 45 minutes with examples.
@Sparkly –I am not sure which “him” you reference, but clearly, there are two sides to this argument and there are people on both sides of it.
miami lawyer – stuff like tznius for girls skirts in the not jewish world skirts would be considered not tznius since its more attractive thats why the mo people would agree with him. i have heard of people who think tznius is not tznius (like longer skirts since in the not jewish world its considered more attractive).
Miamilawyer, the problem is that sometimes the leaves are from another type of tree. Rav Kook says that that is the purpose of opposition to a new group. In fact “Mekor Baruch” quotes the Tzemach Tzedek as saying that the Chassidim owed a debt of gratitude to the Gra for pushing them back on the right side of the line. I will add though that Rav Kook says that the purpose of these groups is to show where the establishment is falling down on the job.
The Siyum Hashas for the Daf Yomi has grown by leaps and bounds. The last one in 2012 for the NY metropolis area had over 93,000 in the Metlife Stadium. Many MO attended which may push MO closer to Yeshivish.
As far as people going OTD Abraham had a son Ishmael who he kicked out and went off the derech. Issac had Esav who wanted to kill Jacob his brother who also went OTD. Even great people had sons that went OTD through no fault of their own.
So Avraham Avinu kicked out his son but you consider him to have gone off the derech?
So Avraham Avinu kicked out his son
Not of his own volition. It’s obvious from the pesukim that he did NOT want to do that. In the end, he only did it because he was commanded to.
The Wolf
abba-s – many mo people might go because they want to be part of something that is part of their religion.
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