Why isn't coffee or chocolate kitniyos?

I don’t think resemblance to flour is really the issue – matzah is made with flour.

I believe they do actually discuss coffee and cocoa beans being kitniyos because they’re beans.

http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x2208

See Shaarei Teshuvah.

Then do TESHUVA.

You’re cheesecake.

Coffee is a room, and chocolate is an addiction.

They’re both technically fruit, I believe.

And DON’T TAKE AWAY MY CHOCOLATE.

I think that R Lior of Kiryat Arba just paskened that any chocolate made with recognizable cacao beans (so not white chocolate, which is only cocoa butter) is haetz. Don’t know if anyone but him agrees though.

Quinoa is a berry , like a strawberry and nothing like a string bean and yet some have called it Kitnyot

Can one make bread or pastry out of coffee. They can be added to flour, but one can’t make them into anything that one could confuse with bread. Corn and rice (and quinoa) can be turned into bread or cakes. Coffee and cocoa are just flavorings.

Of course then you into a discussion of why potatos are allowed, though when you make a flour from it, it is only “bedievad” that it can be turned into bread of cakes, whereas corn can be used to make passable bread and cakes.

the chachomim who made the kitniiyos gezeira did not deem cocoa or coffee beans as kitnoyos. cottonseeds arent either. the main idea was making flour. potatoes were almost assured but then european jews would have nothing to eat so it wasnt assured. sefersim didnt accept the gezeira so they do eat. rav abadi actually does make a borei pri ha’etz on chocolate but not on coffee.

Only those Ashkenazic poskim who were part of the original kitnios g’zeira (about 600-700 years ago) were permitted to determine which foods would be part of the g’zeira; we cannot do it on our own.

This is why we are safe with potato starch even though it’s more like flour than mustard seed (kitnios) yet perfectly ok. Those Ashkenazic Rabbonim never ate potatoes and, therefore, did not experience potato starch to make a g’zeira.

Another example: Rav Moshe zt”l held that peanuts were never part of the kitnios g’zeira mesorah, so he permitted peanuts on Pesach.

When I was young, peanut oil was THE oil used on Pesach by everyone. Whatever happened to that? Today no kashrus agency would put a hechsher on Pesach peanut oil. Why? Because they would be accused of all kinds of nasty things. Enough said.

Why aren’t all sorts of nasty things said about kashrus agencies which certify olive oil or cottonsed oil or butter or chicken schmaltz?

DY- except for cottonseed oil in Israel, your examples are not part of the mesorah controversy.

Corn, peanuts, Mustard and Quiona are part of the mesorah controversy

“Potato bread” includes wheat flour (check the ingredients). “Corn bread” traditionally did not include wheat, and no one has managed to produce a bread usually coco or coffee beans.

Chocolate (similar to corn and potatoes) are American in origin, and while coffee is African in origin, it didn’t become widespread in Europe until the period of the achronim.

Quinoa is American in origin and didn’t become common on North America until recently, and reasonable aruge whether to treat it like corn or like potatoes (though if one looks, there are online bread recipes for it).

If you held that you eat only foods with a mesorah going back to ancient times, none of the American foods would be allowed, and neither would coffee or sugar, which entered our cuisine post-biblically.

“As a chenopod, quinoa is closely related to species such as beetroots, spinach and tumbleweeds.”

Still not a Berry. And still does not deflect the reason why some will say that the chashash of kitniyos applies. Obviously there are differences if kitniyos should be extended to include, but for that ask your own Rov, if you have one.

“Potato Bread in the store is Chometz as is Corn Bread. Its only because that how they make it”

SO then, how common is Potato Bread without flour? Your proof was from potato bread near the frank buns. But those all have flour.

But there are some who do not eat potatoes on pesach, what is your response to that?

Mustard being considered kitnyos is not “new”, The same with wild Rice.

What the Oruch Hashulchan says about those who are Mefakfek or Meikel on kitnyos is that they are testifying about themselves that “Ayn bohem yiras shomayim veyiras chet, v’ayn beki’in b’darchei Torah.” (O’C 453.4)

ZD,

You will note I did not say the Quinoa is assur, I said that there are those who are makpid, and they do have a real basis to do so. Your quote from Wikipedia does not respond to their reasons.

Please try to provide a reputable halachic source for your comments about things that are not kitnios. Wikipedia is not a source, nor is Google. And accepted halacha seforim (I am not talking about contemporary seforim) contradict whatever you have been saying.

“There really isnt much differnece between Cake and Bread.”

Yes there is. Even the basic bracha is different.

“Potato Starch cake and cookies is very common”

Only by Pesach, as Kosher for Pesach. You want to consider something ossur as a chashash chometz because of something made specifically for pesach??

Bottom line is that kitniyos is not Chametz. If someone wants to equate joy of Pesach with how much new kitniyos they can deny themselves, be my guest. I don’t understand it.

We arent debating if Kitnyot is permitted, but about the ever expanding world of Kiniyot.

I am not debating if one should eat Kitnyot, but rather the expanding defination which is really mocking the whole minhag .

“We arent debating if Kitnyot is permitted, but about the ever expanding world of Kiniyot. “

And yet as proof for this you mentioned items that have always been considered kitniyos.

As far as your attitude, I refer you to the aforementioned Oruch Hashulchan.

ZD wrote:

“Corn was not available in Europe. Its a totally american crop and was brought back to Europe after the Europeans came to the new world”

and wrote:

“Wild rice is a GRASS not a rice, the only thing it has in common with rice is the name and it sort of looks like rice….”

While American corn was a new product in Europe, the word corn/korn was an old word which meant the staple grain. Notice that the consonant sounds are similar in corn and grain. I heard that they have the same Latin root. Because of the name, American corn was doomed from the start. It was associated with wheat, oats, or whatever chamets grain European people ate. Had they called it “maiz”, which is what the American natives called it, it might have had a chance.

ZD,

Either way, there was some mix up. But it seems to me that eventually American corn would have made the kiniyot list. It’s can be used like a grain as least as good as anything else on the kitniyot list.

DY, I don’t eat kitniyot. I’m referring to the ever expanding list. The OP wants to add coffee and chocolate. Ten years ago it was Qenoa. What is the obsession with adding to the list?

The people the Oruch Hashulchan is referring to like to allege thatthere is an ever increasing kitmniyot list.

A commenter made some type of claim, that it takes a Talmud Chochom to be matter something. Well it is clear to everyone that the complainers about the alleged expansion of the kitniyos list and who are averring that certain items, such as wild rice, corn and mustard are not part of the gezairakh of kitniyos are not remotely talmidei chachomim.

“No, kitniyos is not chometz, but still assur for Ashkenazim.”

That should be “assur for Ashkenazim to eat.”

Not only should it be assur for Ashkenazim to eat, it is assur for Ashkenazim to eat.

My local supermarket was advertising Quinoa Sushi

Oh, come one, people can live without bread for eight (plus) days but not coffee or chocolate?

Hence the “not serious answer” tag.

(And yes, I understand that I “seriously answered” a joke in another thread, so you felt the need to do so here.)

The Wolf