- This topic has 88 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 1 week, 2 days ago by .
-
Posts
-
And there is a filter called Web Blocker pro and it warns you, that it is going to root the phone
That’s not what it says. It says it will only work if the phone is already rooted.
If rooting were so dangerous, the Play Store shouldn’t carry apps which require root.
Gavra, I don’t think every filter offers that.
Also, I wonder if it becomes unfiltered, or reverts (sic) to a free version, or the phone stops working for data.
That would be important, no? There is sufficient volume for them to force the market if they needed and wanted to do so.
That it not become unfiltered? Agreed. It probably doesn’t.
We need to know the name of the filter that costs $60. Its pointless to speculate if it is one that costs per month or the OP was charged $60 for a free app or the App really costed $60
On the Tag Website, the following were not free
Net Nanny is $9-$12 a month depending on the number of Devices
VCF for Android is $12.95 a month, this one seems to be a Device manager type and not just a normal filter
Why wouldn’t it become unfiltered if the subscriber discontinued paying the subscription? If it remained filtered someone could pay for only one month and continue using it indefinitely.
It might block everything until it’s uninstalled by someone with the password.
There are several things that could happen
The software could simply cease to work, the software could stop updating itself
or it could brick the entire device. With Net Nanny it would probaby stop updating and maybe disable itself however the VCF which is a device manager it could brick the device, someone could also just hack the VCF server and your device is bricked as well
TAG is a 501c3. Donations are tax deductible. There are many ways for money to be transferred from 501c3’s to individuals. Salaries, speaking fees, traveling expenses, and other things come to mind.
If your asking they should find sponsors for the filters, as I know they are working hared to find sponsors for the daily office expenses.
so if you want to help first help them with the daily expenses.
and they are not getting money from any mosed.
Your kind donation always welcome here: https://www.fidelipay.com/tagm
@daasyochid im so sorry you feel the way you feel but it makes no sense what your saying. that is not how we work as a community. if you would like to debate about it my number is 347-971-4386 im so sorry @mrs. L that was a very apathy answer and nobody deserves that as an answer.
Thanks for reviving this post. Its been bothering me too. TAG is connected to filter companies. Call it a 3rd party or call it their own. At this point its one huge operation. If you want people to get filters why do you charge me per month to filter my computer Some of us just have 5 devices and can’t afford $100 a month for filters. And then we constantly switch devices, get new ones etc. I understand because it costs you money. But thats what your mosod is about. Its about promoting filters. You don’t do that by charging. Does Hatzalah charge for their services? Why can’t you install filters even with 3rd party vendors for free and say the suggested donation is $X (I don’t know say $20 a month). We ask that if you can donate to please do so. They’d recoup some of the losses that way. I mean TAG does fundraise. Yes this will increase your budget but it will also increase filters in klal yisroel. isn’t that your goal?
Also don’t take it for granted that everyone follows the rav and is deadset on filters. There are communities where its emphasized less. And even where its a strong point, you’ll be surprised how many people whitewash it. This isnt to minmiize its urgency. But its to say if you truly want people to obtian filters why make obstacles?
Are there any free filters that are effective for Windows, Android and/or iOS?
Does Hatzalah charge for their services?
You the one of the few examples of mosdos that are able to survive on only donations. Most don’t.
Shuls charge membership, yeshivos and Bais Yaakov charge tuition, mikvaos have fees, and in a similar vein, kosher food costs more, tzitzis, tefillin, shaitels and other items required for frum life are also not free.
We want people to go to shul, get a Torah education, do mitzvos and keep the Torah. Yet these things are all not free (some are subsidized and there are tzedakah funds to help, but they’re not free).
I think your complaint against TAG is very unfair.
Are there any free filters that are effective for Windows, Android and/or iOS?
Depends what you mean by effective.
You get what you pay for. The only decent ones cost money.
@DaasYochid .
Sorry but you can’t compare TAG to yeshivas and shuls. Its a poor analogy for many reasons. For starters, whether you like it or not people aren’t yet convinced that you need filters. And by charging them you won’t get them to do it. Secondly, in fact most shuls and yeshivas indeed have a system where people who totally ca’t afford it get off easy or a discounted price. Why can’t TAG offer that? Its not like food because selling food isn’t charity. You are charity . Selloing food isn’t inhernetly a holy thing promoting judaism. And in fact there are a ton of frum organztaions offering free or hevaily discountede food to those that can’t afford it. Again TAG should do the same. Bottom line, yes many relaize that its a given like the pirce of a hashgacha that we all pay for. But there are more than you think who don’t see filters as a must yet. They see it as an extra thng that’s nice to do if easy. You may disagree with that mindset. But that’s how they see it. And if you want them to “eat kosher” via filters and you are a tzadka stop charging. You also collect money for this mosad. What else should it be for other than free or cheaper filters?
*You get what you pay for. The only decent ones cost money.”
Are there any that only entail a one time cost, with no subscription fee?
If not, which has the lowest subscription fee, that is effective?
Regarding iOS, specifically, I recall reading that it’s possible to effectively lock it up without any filter at all, using its internal password/PIN functionality, by either giving the code only to someone other than the user or by splitting half the password with someone else.
opendns is free and it lets you create your own filters. Maybe there are already good setups.
We tried filtering at some point when some kids were going thrtu phases. At the end, what should work for anyone who knows how to find things online yourself is to have a healthy relationship with kids, teach them interesting things and what is right & wrong, and let them use computers/internet productively to learn things, communicate with friends, etc.
At the end of the day TAG thinks they are like a hashgacha that we all accept we pay for. But the population isn’t sold on that yet. They can take the high road and convince themselves. Or they can wake up and realize that if you want people to listen to the Rav don’t charge . Strongly suggest a donation and most will give. You’ll also be more accepted as a tzedaka when you fundraise if filters are free. There is so much money for everything under the sun. Sweat a little more, raise a little more money and give out free filters so it’s truly a tzedaka
I think there is a misconception here about what TAG does and what their role is.
TAG is not a filtering company. They do not make filters. TAG is an organization that keeps up to date with the latest problems in technology and can advise people accordingly based on their individual needs which solution, filter or otherwise, would be best for them. They do not charge at all for this service.
When required, they can install a filter on your device(s). They do not charge at all for this service.
If what you need can be accomplished through iOS parental controls, they will gladly set it up for you. Again, for no charge whatsoever.
Seeing as today there aren’t really any good free filtering options, chances are that for what you require, they will recommend a filter that is not free. Last time I was there, they gave me two options: a cheaper one and a more expensive one. They told me that the cheaper one was a little worse than the more expensive one, but for my needs, the cheaper one should be fine. I chose the cheaper one.
Any money that you pay goes directly to the filter company. Not to TAG. Not through TAG. TAG doesn’t earn a referral per install. You set up the payment directly on the website of the filter company.
The money that TAG raises goes directly towards paying for the resources required to provide the above free services (rent, electricity, computers, etc.). As such, they are indeed a non-profit organization.
What you’re essentially saying is that there should be some kind of organization that takes it upon themselves to pay for people who are reluctant to install a filter due to the fact that it’s not free, or because they can’t afford it. I don’t think anyone would argue that this is a great idea. However, this is not the purpose of TAG. I don’t know who you are, but if you’re in a position to start such an organization, please do. Klal Yisrael will thank you.
Additionally, you might want to consider creating your own filter company which would offer its filter for free. This would require a huge upfront investment (software development isn’t cheap) but should be cheaper in the long run.
Chaim: It was mentioned above that there doesn’t exist any effective free filter. That being the case, it would seem impossible to provide something for free if it doesn’t exist.
I think thats a bit misleading. Tag does have cetrain filters. And for those they don’t have they have very strong connections to companies that have those filters. its not like they have no shyachis. They send all their clients there and there is overlap. Its not completely independent even tough on the books it is.
To your other point about what TAG is. The point of TAG is to promote filters and ensure people use smart phones and other technology “smartly” and ehrlich. If they can’t offer free filters then they are a wasted organziation . Its the basic elementray idea of technology awareness. In todays modern times when there is so much money fundrasied for everything, TAG needs to expand and do the same. This game of promoting awareness but not prviding the full service is just disingenous. and white washing. Get your act together and fundraise more. (BMG raises KYA like $80M a year for aderi torah. A wonderful cause. BH there is alot of money out there)
Side note, I am not convinced that if you offered the servivce but highly encouraged people to pay the $20 a month for the cost that most wouldn’t do that. You’d only need to increase your budget by a little bit. Furthermore, me and others would donate more when you do fundraise because the cause now makes more sense than “just pormoting awareness”. I speak not just for myself but the tone in the street.
Chaim87,
“Sorry but you can’t compare TAG to yeshivas and shuls … most shuls and yeshivas indeed have a system where people who totally ca’t afford it get off easy or a discounted price. Why can’t TAG offer that?”
Correct, they cannot be compared. We are obligated to educate our children and to daven. And we have to eat to live. But there’s no obligation to have a phone. And if the cost of installing a filter is so distasteful to you, you can purchase a kosher phone or a dumbphone and skip the trip to TAG altogether.
“Its a poor analogy for many reasons. For starters, whether you like it or not people aren’t yet convinced that you need filters.”
And these people are not going to be convinced to shlep over to TAG to make their $1000 iPhone less convenient whether or not you waive the $60 filtering fee. Probably not even if you pay them $60 to do it.
Regarding the security risks of filters – note that a filter in this sense is only needed on a device that has a Web browser. You can purchase phones, even smartphones, without a browser. There are various Android AOSP based “kosher” phone operating systems that only allow a specific set of apps to be installed on the phone, blocking sideloading and put on phones with locked bootloaders. For laptop and desktop systems, filtering can be done at the DNS or even router level, similar to AAQ’s suggestion above with openDNS. This should be done with an admin account, with the user accounts not having elevated privileges to change the settings. This is not a foolproof solution.
@Avram in MD
Sorry but I need a smart phone and computer. Its 2024 and we just have needs. I work and have other reasons.
Re “And these people are not going to be convinced to shlep over to TAG to make their $1000 iPhone less convenient whether or not you waive the $60 filtering fee. ” yes they will and I am one of those people. People just don’t like paying for things. Just like i know people driving around in $800 a month leased cars kvetching about high eggs prices. Furthermore, its a feeling and resentment people get that TAG and others are just out for the money. I happen to not think that. I think they mean well. But I still ressent that they charge. Its just not what someone promoting filters should be doing. It makes me look down on them. People like freebies. If you want people to listten don;t charge.
Side note, there are people like me that buy cheap devices too. (used iphones or cheaper smart phones and other devices). Filters end of costing more than the device. I also don’t apprecaite that its $20 to block texts on my flip phone. Stop nicling and dimming. Its very off put.Unless I’m mistaken, I think OpenDNS can easily be evaded by any user switching to 8.8.8.8 (or similar).
If you are concerned about internet misuse either by children or adults, the first thing to do is to disconnect phones and use computers. Phone use encourages impulsivity and abuse by making it available when you should be doing something else. So first establish use on the computer, then monitor traffic for a couple of weeks to understand what is improper, then adjust the filters appropriately. In case of outrageous misuse, put whitelist filters that allow only ywn, wsj, hebrewbooks and khan academy. . If the kid doesn’t complain for a week, need to find out what trick he is using and block that. At minimum, your kid will learn some non trivial computer skills and you will gain some mutual respect.
Chaim87,
“Sorry but I need a smart phone and computer. Its 2024 and we just have needs. I work and have other reasons.”
I did not write need. Need is a relative term, and no, you do not “need” a smartphone in the same sense that you need food or need to fulfill Torah obligations. If you purchase a problematic device, then it’s up to you to make it safer. It wasn’t TAG’s fault you bought that device. And as I wrote above, there are kosher devices available, including with smart apps such as banking, parking, and maps, that do not require filtering at all. Filtering is an after-market attempt to make a smartphone with Web browsing or other potentially unkosher content delivering apps safer to use.
Work is a different story. Most workplaces that require the use of a smartphone or other device to perform duties must supply one to employees, unless the work contract directed the employee to furnish his or her own. These employer furnished devices are almost always managed and monitored by the employer, so only work related activities should be done on them. Employers may even require monitoring software to be installed on personal devices that are used for work purposes or connect to the employer’s IT infrastructure.
“yes they will and I am one of those people. People just don’t like paying for things.”
Then I think you are rather unique. I’ve met people who are opposed to the idea of filtering, and they’re not going to install a filter on their device just because it’s free. Or they’ll grudgingly install a filter because their kid’s yeshiva requires it, and they’ll grumble about TAG charging money for the filter, but it’s a red herring because their real objection is that they have to filter in the first place. And I’ve met people who believe filtering is important or required, and they do not think that it’s someone else’s responsibility to take care of that filtering for them at no cost just because they chose to buy a problematic device. And in a financially challenging circumstance, a person could ask for assistance without grumbling.
“Just like i know people driving around in $800 a month leased cars kvetching about high eggs prices.”
They kvetch, but they still buy eggs.
“But I still ressent that they charge. Its just not what someone promoting filters should be doing. It makes me look down on them. People like freebies.”
Of course people like freebies! I like them, you like them, and I bet even ujm likes them. But to feel resentment when an entity charges you for a good or service? That doesn’t seem reasonable to me. Even if the good or service is a good thing that is being promoted.
“I also don’t apprecaite that its $20 to block texts on my flip phone. Stop nicling and dimming. Its very off put.”
Time is money. I wish it wasn’t $80 just to get the plumber to come to my house to lay eyes on my leaking faucet, but the guy’s got to get into the company truck and drive over to me when he could be upselling aquapex lines in some other house across town. And if you hold that texting is assur, you can purchase a flip phone that comes with talk only. The fact that you bought one with texting and now need to de-textinate it is on you.
Always_Ask_Questions,
Lots of great suggestions. The whitelist filter is a particularly good idea for kids – Google Family Link can do that on a Chromebook, for example. Just make sure to disable guest browsing and restrict logins to preset authorized accounts only. I would also add rules that devices should be used only in public spaces (dining room, living room) and not in bedrooms. And yes, if the child is defeating your filters, then an escalating tit for tat battle that requires the parent to become more seasoned than a NSA network engineer is not the solution.
@Avram in MD,
“You do not “need” a smartphone in the same sense that you need food”
Incorrect I need it for my parnsa and wouldn’t have food without it. Its also pretty much a necessity in the modern world. I get that many jews live without it. I respect them for that. But relaize that its a little like telling someone you do not need electricty because you can live like the amish. Society is kind of past that. Go outside the frum world and you’ll see just how much people use it. But I am not here to debate this issue so much.” If you purchase a problematic device, then it’s up to you to make it safer.”
Umm I am not yet convinced that I need a filter to keep it safer. I can use childlocks etc. You are telling me from a religious point of view that i need one. OK but then offer it for free because I am just not such a deep believer in the cause. Unless you don’t care about getting us less believers to filter.Re “They kvetch, but they still buy eggs” yes but when not sold on the idea of TAG they won’t buy a filter. And no I am not unque in the idea of just not wanting to pay for things. I hear that in the street and all over. Free is free no matter how lavish i live.
Yes I feel resentment when an organization thats a tzedaka and here to help the klal charges . You got it. Mnay can afford bikur cholim and don’t need their free meals in hopsitals. But its off put to charge us even if I can afford it. And guess what I swipe my card when i take a nice hot meal from them. Id do the same for TAG too. But don’t charge me.
Same with your excuse that time is money. Cmon you are a tazdaka . Thats what tzedka does. You give free time to others. I do that as a chesed too. Otherwise what makes you a “tzeadka” that I should donate to? (To be cheap on one time $20?)
Bottom line, I have a hunch you work for TAG. But it all boils down to the same thing. I and many resent the fact that you charge. We aren’t sold that all filters are needed. We think you are out to get our money when you nickle and dime (like charging $20 for two minutes of work to block texts on a flip phone). We think its a chutzpah to call yourslef a “non profit” when all you do is charge us money. Its not just me who feel this way. Its many many more than you think. All your argumets boil down to this idea that you are not obligated to give free things and why should you differ than a for profit business? But they all ignore the basic idea that its just “klein kepadik”, small minded. Its 2024 and there is so much money for everything. You can easily afford to provide free filters to all even via 3rd party vendors that by now you own or are well connected with. Its doable in 2024. This isn’t 1970. And Many just will never have respect for a “non profit” that nickles and dimes. (As I noted you’d be able fund raise alot more if you just gave it all for free).
Avram > Just make sure to disable guest browsing and restrict logins to preset authorized accounts only.
Right, you start with having only one admin account to which you have password, and then everyone (including you) work from local account. That is important to control yourself but also that kids don’t see you typing the password 🙂
> I would also add rules that devices should be used only in public spaces (dining room, living room) and not in bedrooms.
This is a standard recommendation from consultants. They also recommend making such suggestions into official rules. Sometimes, of things are gone in a wrong direction already, you can exchange a new iphone for new rules. We were not able to do this consistently though, our family is not so much rule-based starting with parents. Computer rules work better.> And yes, if the child is defeating your filters, then an escalating tit for tat battle that requires the parent to become more seasoned than a NSA network engineer is not the solution.
OpenDNS and such allow monitoring what is being watched (and when). Don’t block a site immediately, spend a little of time on surveillance, then block the whole new approach. Keep them confused – switch filters off/on every 15 minutes, sometimes check same site on your computer and say – no it is not a filter, it works on my computer (rules allow that also), etc.
ujm, don’t give kids ideas, but simply block all those addresses from your admin account, and local accounts should not have access to the router
Chaim87,
“Incorrect I need it for my parnsa and wouldn’t have food without it.”
I already addressed work requirements in my last post. And it’s a red herring as you wrote above that you have “other reasons” for using these devices in addition to work.
“Its also pretty much a necessity in the modern world … Society is kind of past that. Go outside the frum world and you’ll see just how much people use it. But I am not here to debate this issue so much.”
I do see how much smartphones are used, and it’s horrific. I’m not immune from it either. I had a smartphone until around a year ago, and I thought my usage of it was low and careful. During a trip my toddler smashed it and broke the screen in a hotel room. My older son then told me he was glad it broke, because I was always on it and not paying attention to what he was saying to me. They are destructive, and I call them cocaine slabs.
“You are telling me from a religious point of view that i need one. OK but then offer it for free because I am just not such a deep believer in the cause. Unless you don’t care about getting us less believers to filter.”
You’ve taught me a new life hack! Food costs have been a real challenge, but those rabbis keep harping about keeping kosher, so I’m going to head over to the kosher grocery store and demand free food, because I’m “not such a deep believer” in kashrus (chas veshalom), and my ruchniyus is their responsibility, not mine. They’re sure to see the truth in this, unless of course they don’t care about getting us “less believers” (chas veshalom) to eat kosher.
“Yes I feel resentment when an organization thats a tzedaka and here to help the klal charges”
They are here to help the klal, but where do you get that they are a tzedaka? I don’t think of them as such, and nowhere on their Web site do they claim to be. They refer to their work as community service, and openly state on their Web site that any charges incurred go to the filter providers. In contrast, bikur cholim is a tzedaka, and they state that their assistance is free.
“Bottom line, I have a hunch you work for TAG”
Nope, I don’t work for them, volunteer for them, nor have I ever even walked into one of their facilities.
“We think its a chutzpah to call yourslef a “non profit” when all you do is charge us money.”
I’m not sure you understand what a non-profit is. The Smithsonian Institution is a non-profit, but you still have to pay for parking at many of their facilities. The Educational Testing Service is a non-profit, but there’s still a fee to take the SAT. Most shuls are non-profit, but they charge membership dues. Just because they’re not making profit for shareholders doesn’t mean there are operational costs that have to be covered.
@Avram in MD
I am not here to debate whether having a smartphone is suggested or not. I hear your point about addiction but I think its just so the normal and regular. You just can’t live the Amish. Its going to be the new norm like a car. There are teshivas against taking atrain because people will go to the city and become frei. Guess what the arucah hahluchan was spot on. Thats what happened. But when it becomes so widespread and so the new norm fighting it isn’t the answer. Soon you will need that phone for every daily usage like swipping it for credit cards , going on the city bus, signing forms etc.But I repeat this isn’t what I am looking to debate. lets focus on Tag charging money for filters.
The compasion to hashgachas is a weak one at best. I’d compare it to shul membership maybe. Most shuls don’t “require” membership. They strongly encourage and nudge people. People realize on their own to pay. But noone throws people out if they don’t pay. In our shul we consider them as equal members. This is how I think TAG should work too, Strnomgly encourage paying but don’t offically charge. Its not like a hashgacha that’s a minimum cost and where people are sold to the cause.Re the non for profit aspect. I get that legally and probably halchalcly they can charge. I just say its not in the spirit of how most frum people view mossod who generally does not charge for services. When they make a TAG shabbos the rav is saying its “tzaedka”. Whats the “tzedka” if they charge? Because they offer “awareness” for free? (don’t get me started on “awareness”. Tag shita is that its all trief to start and only with alot of convincing bdieved is anything kosher. the 24-6 commotion is a prime example. Its the best invention and BH I got my kids off you tube because of that. But mo its all trief)
Let me make my key point though: TAG can do whatever they want. But realize that you or they are leaving behind a whole proportion of klal yisroel by charging. Not everyone is sold on the necessity and/or technology is both a big pull and the way forward. They have the most powerful mike and its up to them to bring those people in too. Or they can be like the tznuis asfias that only those with short shitels attend already while the rest of kall yisroel just ignores the issue. We need to start waking up to the reality that there is whole segment of charedi jews (whether chasdim or litfaks) who look at these things as extra frum but not a necissity. Those that are sold on these things will be aware of the dangers anyhow. in 2024 there is no excuse why they can’t do the right thing, offer free filters and focus on winning over this growing sectorof those not sold on this who are ignored.
@Avram in MD…your name is quite ironic as the director of TAG in Baltimore up until 2022 was this year sentenced to more than two decades in the Federal slammer for the most egregious child abuse and distribution of child abuse materials on the Internet committed over the course of 15 years. In the course of his responsibilities as TAG director, he undoubtedly had at least the opportunity to access hundreds of devices from people of all ages. TAG never publicly made a statement or provided widespread guidance to people on what to do given this fact—in some cases, there may not be awareness. If he was half the technical expert he claimed, this silence was despite a valid concern. TAG, TAG employees/volunteers who install filters, and the filter companies are put into extraordinary positions of trust where they have the opportunity (via the MDM solutions they install or via their access to the device during the installation process) to fully compromise a device and its data…
This isn’t discussed enough in the context of filtering and TAG’s response to that affair (basically a cover up) is why I will never have anything to do with them whatsoever. As someone who understands the risks of technology and does have filters installed himself, it is nevertheless quite difficult to justify putting basically unknown people into such a position of trust. Really, it is unclear to me if who deals with privileged information (i.e. attorneys) or various controlled information (i.e. proprietary) information is putting themselves in legal jeopardy by basically sticking a transparent HTTPS-breaking proxy, MDM solution, and rootkit entirely controlled by a third party on their device. At a minimum, it seems they would have to disclose that they do so to a client…
Chaim,
I suggest you collect a page of free advise how to filter your phone to even some degree and test it with relevant population – those who need it but did not buy TAG, let’s see how it goes. If this works, start a non-profit that distributes this as ads. Hope they pass thru TAG 🙂
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.