Why is MK Litzman supporting a monopoly?

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  • #1303883
    rational jew
    Participant

    Is there anyone here who can explain MK Litzmans actions regarding the Hadassah hospital controversy? Regardless of whether the doctors are right why doesn’t he give freedom to any hospital such as sha’are zeddek to do as they please and open a children’s ward as doctors recommend? Did he consult with gedolim before making a decision which may be a question of safek pikuach nefesh? Is Litzman a socialist? Is the Torah socialist?

    #1303952
    Avi K
    Participant

    Litzman thinks that he is our nanny. He also wants to ban anything with trans fats (although that will definitely get him into trouble as it would include kugel). However, for some reason he defends the cigarette companies. He even opposed requiring warning labels on packages as “unaesthetic”.

    #1303951
    Joseph
    Participant

    I know nothing about this dispute, but the Torah and Halacha does not oppose monopolies. Indeed, Halacha often supports an existing merchant and prevents competition (depending on the circumstances.)

    #1304002
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Avi K,
    Sorry to bust your bubble, but typical potato Kugel does not have trans fat.
    As ” Health minister” his job is to look our for your health. Why are you okay with him being a nanny in regards to cigarettes, but you’re against him being a nanny in regards to trans fat?!? Either he’s a nanny, or he isn’t. You can’t pick and choose. Unless you’re against him because you don’t like him, not for any rational reason.

    #1303993
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    rational jew
    Part of taking government money is following their rules.
    Israel’s medical insurance is government run. If you don’t like single payer system, vote for change. Don’t blame Rabbi Litzman for doing his job.

    #1304519
    rational jew
    Participant

    Yitzchokm,
    the question now is why isn’t Litzman trying to change? Does he have to enforce the corrupt system? Why doesn’t he try and free up the market where possible? Allow for less regulation even if it’s still technically public. Push and speak up for change. Why isn’t he that change you suggested I vote for?
    I think Avi K meant he shouldn’t be a nanny at all, not for cigarettes or sugar or anything, but if he does have a big brother policy why is he more concerned about trans fats than cigarettes? It seems he’s not going to be that change. So the question returns are these his policies or the psak of gedolim? If it’s his policy it’s da’as ba’al habatim so why should I vote for him? If it’s from the gedolim, where is the torah source for it?

    #1304520
    rational jew
    Participant

    Joseph,
    what is your source that the Torah is not opposed to monopolies? We must be very precise when quoting halachah or we run into the danger of speaking like the reform who say the torah believes in everything they want it to under some vague idea of tikkun olam or kavod habriyot.
    You said “depending on the circumstances”, this detail can make all the difference in defining a monopoly. I hope you don’t mean the Torah would be OK with everything being a monopoly?
    I find it hard to believe the Torah would support a system that has been proven to fail whenever tried and is supported mostly by so called “liberals” who are more likely to be anti semitic and anti rich. Do you support Obama care?

    #1304525
    Chaver
    Participant

    I think that Litzman will gladly let Shaarei Zzedek open a new ward but he won’t give them funding from the state. It might not be worth it for Shaarei Tzedek to open a new ward without government backing.

    #1304556
    Joseph
    Participant

    RJ, I don’t need a source. If you want to claim there’s an issue in the Torah against monopolies,*you* need to bring a source. (There isn’t any.)

    Furthermore, the well known Halacha of Hasagas Ge’vul frequently prohibits creating direct immediate competition with an established merchant.

    #1304682
    Avi K
    Participant

    Yitz,
    1. Google “JERUSALEM KUGEL” and look at the nutritional info.
    2. Cigarettes are much more dangerous and affect others. Moreover his reason is foolish. Who cares about the aesthetics of cigarette packs?

    Joseph, see Hasagat Gevul: Economic Competition in Jewish Law by Rabbi Chaim Jachter.

    #1304701
    LemaanHaemes
    Participant

    As someone who has been following this very closely, it would seem that his close ties (financial?) with Dr. Rotstein (Head of Haddassa) does not allow him to betray Haddassa. They think that opening a “competing” ward will hurt Haddassa’s bottom line. (This can be debated, since Haddassa was understaffed and over-crowded before the crisis). Secondly, he has made pretty clear on the media that he wants to “teach” the doctors a lesson not to “revolt” against the establishment. Apparently even if that is for ethical issues. In any case, none of the parties (Litzman, Rotstein or the doctors) seem to realize how they are essentially playing games on the backs of sick children and their parents. I don’t know why Litzman couldn’t find some other arena to flex his muscles in.

    #1304713
    chilliworker2
    Participant

    typical kugels are not made with margarine.
    regular oil does not contain trans-fat

    as for ‘aesthetic’ some come with gory pictures warning of the health hazards of smoking…

    #1304748
    reb mutche
    Participant

    As someone living in Eretz Yisroel, both sides are using the children as hostages for their cause.
    This is a labor dispute like all Labor disputes that needs someone to help BOTH sides work it out.
    The fact that the doctors are using the children to push their side in the media is discussing!
    MK Litzman is an honest and ehrlich person, and I’m sure he sees all the sides in this conflict and is doing what he thinks is best for the public.

    #1304936
    Avi K
    Participant

    Chilliworker,
    1. Making it with margarine and vegetable oil keeps it parve. In any case, trans fats in moderation are not harmful and unlike cigarettes are not addictive.
    2. Litzman is against any type of warning.
    3. Ma’alot-Tarshiha Mayor Shlomo Buhbut called him “the worst health minister ever” and claimed he was responsible for “the collapse of medical system in the periphery.” (Jerusalem Post).

    #1305727
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    1. Duh, which is why it does not contain Trans fat.
    2. Incorrect R. Litzman is against disgusting gory pictures, he’s FOR written warnings
    3. I have no idea what you’re talking about. R. Litzman was voted the most well liked Israeli pol last year. One bad story doesn’t make him a pariah.

    #1305930
    Avi K
    Participant

    Yitz,

    1. Duh. Margarine and vegetable oils have trans fats. Some have more, some have less.

    2. Experts have said that these pictures help greatly. Litzman said that they will “disfigure” the state. I guess smoke does not.

    3. Actually he was rated the most liked cabinet member. If Shelly Yachimovich would praise my performance (if I would be an MK), as she praised Litzman’s, I would demand a retraction and lifting of parliamentary immunity so that I could sue for defamation.

    #1306247
    rational jew
    Participant

    Joseph,
    I said I find it hard to believe the torah would support an economic system invented by a self-hating Jew, which has proven to cause untold anguish that we pray every day will be removed with the return of our true judges and hashems law. No bet din would pasken that no one may compete with a certain business that has become a monopoly such as here. If sha’are zeddek (or any one who wants to open a hospital) and haddassah would come for a din torah no dayan has any source I’m aware of to rule against competition, (including hasagas gvul which is very limited to a case where one is practically stealing another’s clients.) Have you never seen two Jewish shops competing? It’s probably going to be quite hard to find an explicit halachah against monopolies (where are the coffee room beki’im?) however there are many instances where the torah encourages competition. But the point is, in a din torah if there is no source against competition the dayan has no right to rule against the competitor and will in fact cause customers to suffer. The torah favors neither rich nor poor, unlike some modern ideas of justice.

    #1306752
    rational jew
    Participant

    I do want to mention that I’m not trying to attack Litzman as a person. He may be very well meaning and I may be no different in his situation. I just want to question his policy. Well meaning smokers also get cancer. Litzman may win popularity contests but that only means he’s a good politician who knows what his voters want (or at least what he can get away with) not what they need. I question the role of torah guidance some of his decisions. Instead of defending him we should let him know what we believe. Why are we capitalist in America but socialist here? As Avi mentioned if the half communist Shelly Y. is praising him that is not a compliment. She’s been on record criticizing charities because they distract the state from it’s “responsibilities” giving it an excuse not to take “care” of us. Private charity must eventually inevitably come into conflict with public welfare. They are opposing systems practically competing for attention. This may not seem obvious but the mindset of blaming the government is very different from the mindset of taking care of it yourself.

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