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2cents: So we don’t disagree. I’m not saying the MMR vaccine is bad. I am saying that like most people, including doctors, I don’t have an accurate basis of information on which to draw. My argument is about the system, not the facts. You cannot assume that the CDC or the vaccine companies or even your pediatrician have the same interests you do, and when those interests are at odds with your own, you would expect them to protect their interests at the expense of yours.
For example, imagine there was a disease called “meamembella”. The disease can cause lasting damage to those who contract it, and it is highly contagious. The vaccine saves 5000 people a year from this lifelong damage. The vaccine itself has bad side effects in a very tiny minority of patients, and the effects appear to run in families; i.e. if your first child had the ill effects, your second child has a 50% chance of having them as well. Imagine the CDC knows all of this and is acting in the best interests of their constituents.
One day, news breaks that a child has these terrible side effects from the vaccine. You are the head honcho at the CDC. If you concede that some people get the side effects, hundreds of thousands of people will stop giving the vaccine, reasoning that if “only they” don’t vaccinate, they will be protected against both a breakout and the side effects. If you don’t concede, people will continue to get the vaccine, and the same tiny, tiny minority will continue to get these terrible side effects. In carrying out your job to the best of your ability, how do you address this news?
Veltz: Why would you think that your pediatrician might not have your child’s best interests as his priority (and what is his ulterior motive)?
“HPV literally has no effect on men”
Not true; it causes warts and some horrible cancers.
edited
Pardon my ignorance, but I think I missed something. Popa, what is the problem with the HPV vaccine?
Veltz: Firstly I take offense at the fact that you think I could not comprehend what you wrote (just letting you know).
Secondly: Considering you think yourself worthy of a well thought out reply in response to your ranting I will do my best.
Admittedly there have been flawed studies but by 2015 the evidence against vaccination has been discredited by non-flawed studies.
As well research in the field of immunology is always happening. People are discovering new ways to do things all the time and if a company holds onto a semi-effective vaccine instead of funding research to improve it they will be left way behind.
The flu vaccine is a very individual case and should not inform your decisions about other vaccines.
Vaccines have dramatically changed the statistics of world mortality in the past 100+ years (antibiotics have helped as well). If you took the time to read the studies and scholarly articles and look at the statistics you might have a very different view.
In short: there are issues with one or two of the vaccines on the market today however you should not allow this to inform your perception of vaccinations in general. Keep yourself informed and try not to be so fearful of the government.
profound: You entirely failed to grasp Veltz’s underlying point. Namely that it is conceivable that vaccines ARE very beneficial to society. But that individuals may, in some circumstances, be better off with not vaccinating with various immunizations despite the fact that everyone can agree society at large IS better off.
Again, what is the problem with the HPV vaccine?
” But that individuals may, in some circumstances, be better off with not vaccinating with various immunizations despite the fact that everyone can agree society at large IS better off. “
And that selfishness is what will kill people. It certainly isn’t an attitude that Judaism supports. It is a shonda that some of the recent outbreaks of vaccine-preventable disease have been in frum communities.
“And that selfishness is what will kill people.”
charliehall: So you agree that there are circumstances where though society would benefit from universal vaccination, it may be various individuals are better off doing without the vaccination (and whatever risks/side-affects it poses)?
VM,
First you establish that there are serious side effects to the vaccines, based on that fact you go on with your explanation.
This is not the case, there are no established studies showing that vaccines are dangerous, if there were, pediatricians would not advocate for it.
You are using the argument that the CDC is flawed and does not have our best interest in mind, it appears that you are not familiar with the CDC, however even if that is the case, there is much more than the CDC, all the studies and articles published in The Lancet and in Pediatrics, as well as the recommendations of the American Association of Pediatrics.
In fact some of the people advocating against vaccines (Such as Dr Palevsky) have personal monetary interests involved. They use this as platform to advance their agendas.
Lior,
How can you separate the individual from the population? what is good for the population is good for the individual.
And that selfishness is what will kill people. It certainly isn’t an attitude that Judaism supports.
Self interest is not selfishness. That sounds a bit Catholic.
2scents: That is not necessarily true. There can be circumstances where doing something is good for society but bad for the individual.
Self interest at the cost of others is selfishness.
Lior: No. Post facto we can determine that in .01% or less of cases that not vaccinating would have been the right move. But unless we have something like a genetic test that shows a predisposition to a certain side effect popping up (and they’re working on inventing those), there is never a case where I can a priori know that not vaccinating is the right option or even close to a legitimate option.
Self interest at the cost of others is selfishness.
Of course it isn’t. Think about that one again.
Or how about some examples:
ISIS takes 5 people captive and announces they will kill them all unless one certain person trades himself for them (and they’ll kill him instead).
That person refuses. Is he selfish?
Sam: Some people can know beforehand that they are more likely to benefit from not taking a certain vaccine (and thus avoid whatever side-affects/risks) based on their medical status, family history and/or demographics. Or a test, as you suggested.
“there is never a case where I can a priori know that not vaccinating is the right option or even close to a legitimate option. “
Actually there are such rare cases, mostly allergic reactions to a previous dose of the same vaccine. The number of such cases is vanishingly small. But for everyone else not covered by a specific contraindication, it is always better to vaccinate as there are no longer any vaccines given in the US that have major risks. (Indeed the form of the polio and pertussis vaccines have been changed to make them less effective in order to reduce the already low risk of severe adverse side effects down to essentially zero.)
I’d like to differentiate between an informed person who declines a flu shot (or the like), and the myriads of uninformed, misguided, stupid, and abusive parents who cause their own and other children’s deaths by declining vaccination.
There should be a separate forum to discuss VM’s points which should only be accessible to those who vaccinate their children against the important deadly diseases.
All I ask of my pediatrician is to treat my child as he would treat his own. And I believe he does.
Sorry Im late to the party. A few points in response to VM’s reopening what should be a forgotten topic.
“I possess literally no objective or accurate information about vaccines.”
– Perhaps the only accurate statement in the post.
“The vaccine controversy is real and it is the fault of the medical establishment as much as it is the fault of a few flawed studies.”
– The controversy is contrived it is the result of one flawed study and a few evil celebrities (!) who endorse it.
“Because of the stakes involved in public health, nobody ever gives a straight answer to questions about vaccinations.”
– Straight answers are given repeatedly there have been studies (plural) proving the safety and efficacy of vaccines. (do a pub med search)yet the appeal of celebrities is hard top overcome.
“Moreover, you can believe that the doctors, the government and big pharma are acting totally l’sheim shamayim (they are not, BTW) and still believe they are lying. Their job is to support the public health. If vaccines caused any ill effects, their job would be to weigh the public benefit against the public costs, and make a decision whether to be open about the costs if it may result in fewer vaccinations.”
– This is true. thats why your it comes with possible side effects noted.
“But an individual should care about the individual costs and make a decision based on his or her personal circumstances.”
-Debatable, as a member of society individuals should make decisions based on society.
Here are some examples that support what I wrote above:
“1. We are nagged endlessly every year to get the flu shot. Few doctors will tell you the objective fact that the flu shot is directed only at a few strains of the flu, and that it has side effects.”
– I allways mention POSSIBLE side effects, Ive always been told of POSIBLE side effects.
“They will tell you that the flu kills 35-50000 Americans every year. Assume the number itself is true (it isn’t); they don’t tell you that the overwhelming majority of the victims are elderly or infants,”
– It is ture that the flu kills 3500 – 50000 Americans each year. While majority are infants and elderly (i.e >65). surprise doctors care for them too So I’m not quite sure what your point is. Furthermore the obese, those with Lung dieases (Astma/COPD) are at risk as well. Never mind the fact that hospitalization is what doctors want to avoid as well. As many as 200,000 are hospitalized annually for complications related to the flu. This year in particular has been a bad year and among the deceased I know of are a couple (not elderly they were in late 50’s) who caught a particularly nasty strain of flu (H3) complicated by CA-MRSA and died.
” and that the flu vaccine is only designed l’chat’chila to address about 50% of anticipated flu cases in the first place.”
– The developers predict strains to inoculate against the efficacy is variable. This year has been particularly ineffective.
“So you’re taking a vaccine with a high chance of side effects, to protect against a disease that would be incredibly unlikely to harm you at all, and the protection is only 50% better!”
– Should read” So you’re taking a vaccine with a low chance of mild side effects, to protect against a disease that while incredibly unlikely to harm most healthy people, has a high chance of harming you and even higher chance of harming in catastrophic ways those you may love including elderly/infants and those with predisposing conditions, and the protection is often as high as 50% better and by some estimates as much as 90%!!!
“NONE of what I wrote is remotely controversial.”
– Because it isnt factual.
“It happens because ten thousand people getting minor side effects is nothing to the government, while 20 lives of elderly people and infants that are saved is something to them.”
– Ummm isnt it something to all?
” So forgive me if I am skeptical generally of the government’s claims about vaccines.”
– Forgiven! Dont trust the government. dont trust me. Do a pubmed search yourself. Or Find someone who is knowledgeable on the subject ask him to explain the literature to you. Make sure s/he explains terms such as absolute and relative risk reduction and number needed to treat. Then see if you can visit your local ICU and note how many patients have Droplet precaution notices on the doors to their room. Then you will be truly informed on the subject.
I am not as well versed regarding varicella and HPV So those can wait for now.
“It happens because ten thousand people getting minor side effects is nothing to the government, while 20 lives of elderly people and infants that are saved is something to them.”
You are questioning the wisdom of saving 20 lives at the cost of minor side effects?
Are you serious???
Veltz Meshugener -“I am not someone who gets into vehement arguments about vaccines, either pro or anti.”
This I don’t believe! Your whole post sounds very Anti. I’m just gonna address this point about Chicken pox. The other posters have done a good job on the rest of your OP!
“Here are some examples that support what I wrote above:
2. A similar situation is true of the chicken pox vaccine. I am old enough (and I’m not that old) to remember doctors directing parents to seek out chicken pox for their children. Now there is a vaccine that provides dramatically less protection against chicken pox than the old practice. The vaccine needs to be renewed every fifteen years or so, and therefore makes it more likely that people will get chicken pox as adults, when it is serious, rather than as children, when it’s not.”
Now the Truth from the CDC:
“CDC recommends two doses of chickenpox vaccine for children, adolescents, and adults. Two doses of the vaccine are about 98% effective at preventing chickenpox.”
“The best way to prevent chickenpox is to get the chickenpox vaccine. Children, adolescents, and adults should have two doses of chickenpox vaccine.
scared
He doesnt have to say why.
Its obvious, he is pandering to the anti-science kooks that form a big chunk of the GOP base in particular those who would vote in priamries
As a pediatric neurosurgeon, Carson’s expertise is not in this topic. And spreading it out has great risk of the patient’s [parents] behavior being irrational and/or irresponsible. Spreading out vaccines requires more action on the part of the patient. As a rule, patients are more irrational, stupid, and less responsible than Doctors. Carson may place the moral onus of such behavior on the patient. IDK whether I agree. As always, it all depends on the numbers, and the numbers people looking at this are more qualified than me to make that judgment.
Answer to question in Patur Aval Assur’s first post: Buy a ticket for a train that leaves Chicago at 10:00 am on Tuesday headed west and arrives in Cleveland at 7:00 am on Wednesday when the wind is blowing from the North at 14 miles per hour.
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