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As I have read the discussions about Jewish music over the years here and elsewhere, the question that occurs to me is that we don’t have (that I know of) a mesorah of the melodies Dovid HeMelech composed. This surprises me.
I’ve not done any research into the age of the melodies we use for things like the leining, so I may be mistaken, but it’s seems that they’ve survived hundreds if not thousands of years. If we could manage to pass them along generation to generation, why didn’t those of Dovid HaMelech get passed down, as well?
Perhaps they, along with the melodies sung by the Leviim in the Beis HaMikdash, were indeed passed down, but like the vessels of the temple, they were “put away” until the third Temple (I have no source for this theory; I’m just suggesting one). But, that seems unlikely, given that the Tehillim, for example, weren’t written to be recited only in the context of a formal Temple service.
Without a written notational system, something that did not exist in Dovid’s time, it is nearly impossible to preserve a melody.
I’ve not done any research into the age of the melodies we use for things like the leining, so I may be mistaken, but it’s seems that they’ve survived hundreds if not thousands of years. If we could manage to pass them along generation to generation, why didn’t those of Dovid HaMelech get passed down, as well?
You are mistaken. I’m not sure where the origins of the musical notes that we use in leining are, but it’s fairly clear that it has morphed and changed over time. I’ve been teaching leining to bar mitzvah boys for over 20 years and I can tell you that none of the boys I taught lein exactly the same way that I do — nor do I lain exactly the way my teacher did. Much as word pronunciation changes over time*, I would expect a musical “language” used by far fewer people to experience an even greater “drift” over the generation.
The Wolf
* An excellent book on language that covers, among other things, how word pronunciations in the English language have drifted over the years and locations is Bill Bryson’s “The Mother Tongue.”
Funny this topic should appear today, as just this morning I was thinking about how we refer to a song as one the “XYZ” <insert the singer of your choice> sings, yet the “song” is from tehilim or gemoroh.
The one in particular I had in mind was “Omar R’ Akiva, ashrechem, ect”. Now, if asked “who sings that song” I would reflexively (and wrongfully) respond, “its XYZ”, when in reality it was R’ Akiva.
But when you think about it, the point the original writer / speaker / composer had in mind was to relay a message (faith, simcah, ect). So does it really make a differnce if the message is relayed in a vehicle that has been adapted to today’s audience? Ok, I would never suggest this to be the case for kriyas hatorah, where mesorah must stay unchanged. But perhaps the “tune” with which select mizmorim are conveyed, need not be in one particular type.
A good example is the middle part of the to’chacha. True, its a fearful piece and one that needs to be heard as a dire warning. But one singer (a pair actualy) set those words to a soulful tune. So which was the “real” way the words were said? Was it fire and brimstone? Or was is said to the tune of trop? Or did it switch in middle from dire to supportive / reasuring and then back to dire?
I think the answer is yes to all the above. If the intent was to convey a message, the message (in some circumstances) needs to be modified so that it reaches the listener with the biggest impact.
(I hope this is still considered on topic!)
Who says that none of the songs are preserved? I’ve heard that the tune which is sung during Birchas Kohanim goes back to the Beis Hamikdash.
Do we know who wrote the tunes which are used for tefillos? The tune for Neillah on Yom Kippur is the same almost everywhere. Who wrote that?
Who says that none of the songs are preserved? I’ve heard that the tune which is sung during Birchas Kohanim goes back to the Beis Hamikdash.
Source?
And which tune? I’ve heard several different tunes used.
The Wolf
According to Rav Schwab ztl the tune of “ledovid boruch” sung in Breuer’s on motzai shabbos dates back to the beis hamikdash.
I also heard that the “nah nahs” that many shuls insert in the davening on yomim noraaim (between phrases that the chazan sings) dates back to the geonim.
as far a trup – remember that different kehilos have different tunes – ashkenaz/syrian/morrocan/yeminite/yekke etc…
I would speculate that the songs of Dovid Hamelech and the levi’im may have been forgotten because after the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash it brought those who knew them too much pain to sing them, as the pasuk says “eich nashir es shir Hashem al admas neichar”.
WolfishMusings is absolutely correct: Without a recording device and without musical notes, it’s vitally impossible to definitively state that a “tune” goes back thousands of years. This is why the oral law had to be written down, and even then chazal disagreed on the rulings.
yitayingwut is right. once the beis hamikdash was destroyed it was assur to sing anymore (giitin daf zayin) so no niggunim were passed down
goody613 – Actually, I was not going to use that to prove my point because the halacha is that shiros ve’tishbachos are not assur. However I saw that the Rambam, when bringing the halacha, says a lashon “ukvar nahagu kol yisroel lomar divrei tishbachos…”, which I think implies that this is new, but originally they were not noheig like that, as you said. Thank you.
cherrybim and wolfishmusings – There’s no way you can know that the songs weren’t written down. How do you think they got all the levi’im musicians to memorize their roles? It would make sense that they had music sheets. They probably just got lost, that’s all. That which wolfishmusings says notational systems did not exist in Dovid’s time is not accurate, in fact there are musical notes preserved from ancient Greece from just about that time.
Before wondering about something as complex as Dovid Hamelech’s songs, why don’t you even know which Shevet you are from? How much time does it take for a father to tell his son, “by the way, we from the Shevet of Asher”? Even with all the Tzaros, I don’t think it’s that hard to tell your son which Shevet he is. Someone once suggested something similar to what yitayningwut said. It’s hard to grasp actually, but something went on that we don’t know about.
We find that the Gemara in Pesachim mentions about two people who were into things that were of a stereotype of a certain Shevet. They did research and found that they actually came from that Shevet. So, we see that at the time of Chazal, it was already not known. We also see that when interested, they were still able to find out. Question is, why didn’t they?
yitayningwut-“It would make sense that they had music sheets. They probably just got lost, that’s all.”
That’s all? You’re just proving our point. If the music sheets got lost, then the tunes got lost over the past 2000 years.
By the way, did your family preserve the tunes that your great great grand father sang a hundred and fifty years ago? Most tunes get lost over relatively few years. Many zmiros from the 50’s and 60’s aren’t around today, and that’s the way it’s been; the old makes way for the new.
I’ve seen many nigunim and wedding music change and conform to the times. A drei here and a drei there, and after a while you’ve got a new and changed tune. So it’s highly unlikely that Jews being the creative people that we are, that we allow anything to remain the same unless mandated by halacha.
cherrybim – I’m not arguing with you. I’m just saying that even though we don’t remember the tunes it is possible maybe that one day we’ll dig them up, and that wolfishmusings is incorrect in assuming there was no such thing as music notation back then.
yitayningwut – Yes, but however very unlikely, even if some type of music notes existed and they were found, they would be meaningless in terms of recreating the sound.
It’s interesting; most frum people who sing in choirs cannot read music. They rehearse, practice, memorize and produce wonderful sound.
cherrybim – Most frum people who sing in choirs are memorizing relatively simple songs and harmonies. But for a large orchestra where each person has to do his own ‘kneitch’ on his particular instrument at different places in each song, and has to be told what to do by the one arranging the music, it is unheard of that each one of the musicians simply memorizes his part. The levi’im had a fairly large orchestra, it wasn’t just singing (see Arachin 10a-11a), so it’s hard for me to believe they didn’t use some form of notation.
That which you say these notes would be meaningless in terms of recreating the sound is not true at all, first of all the same way there are people who can decipher old languages they could probably figure out this too – and they do, as we have songs from ancient Greece. Second of all it’s probably easier to decipher a musical language because there are a limited number of scales and it’s all mathematical; all you’d need to do is guess a little bit until it makes sense.
Actually I retract what I said that it’s easier to decipher music; it probably isn’t, being that each style of music is so different. But I stand by my point, and my proof is from the Greek songs they’ve deciphered.
Here is a link to an article by Sherwood Goffin, examining the origin of the nusach yomim noraim; there are references to nusach of the Maharil
If you Google “nusach” and “Sherwood Goffin” you will find other articles, as well. This does not answer the Dovid haMelech question, but it begins to open a window on the origin of nusach. I’ll try to remember, but there is an authorative volume from the 1920s that traces many of the globally-common nusach ha-tefilos –
That which wolfishmusings says notational systems did not exist in Dovid’s time is not accurate, in fact there are musical notes preserved from ancient Greece from just about that time.
I may need to stand corrected on this. Some basic research indicates that there were musical notation systems at least in the latter days of the Bayis Sheini. (However, that they actually existed in the Bais HaMikdash is NOT a given.)
That being said, however, the fact remains that we don’t have the “sheet music” of the day. So, even if it existed in the BhM (not a given) and even if it existed to this day (which is doesn’t) and even if it could be deciphered (also not a given), there’s STILL no guarantee that it wouldn’t drift. Once again, I point you to the example of laining. Even though we all use the same symbols, my darga may not be the same as someone else’s darga. My gairshayim is not the same as another’s gairshayim. Yes, they’re similar in the here and now, but they aren’t the same — and that makes them liable to drift over the centuries — much like the pronunciation of words can (and does) drift over the centuries.
According to Rav Schwab ztl the tune of “ledovid boruch” sung in Breuer’s on motzai shabbos dates back to the beis hamikdash.
WADR to Rav Schwab, I don’t know how he could possibly know that. He might be able to credibly claim that the present tune has its *origins* in a tune that came from the BhM (still quite a claim given the geographic, temporal and cultural differences), but to say that it is the tune they sung? I don’t know how he could possibly say that definitively.
The Wolf
Telegrok – Thank you for providing the facinating link to: “The Music of the Yamim Noraim” by Sherwood Goffin; it’s a must read and it dispels some myths about the mesorah of the nusach.
Littleeema – How do you know what Rav Schwab actually said concerning the tune of “ledovid boruch”?
yitayningwut – Deciphering and reproducing are two different things.
While I don’t know how R’ Schwab, ztz’l, knew that, there is a Yerushalmi shul in E”Y which sings the same niggun as Breuers’ to those words, and they claim it originates from the BH”M.
tomim/cherrybim/wolf-
as a member of KAJ, it was said many times by the Rov.
cherrybim – If we could decipher it why wouldn’t we be able to reproduce it? Even if we don’t have the exact instruments we could still know the tunes and the basic arrangements.
wolfishmusings – I never said it’s a given. I only said it’s possible.
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