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Slabodka argued that unless they started wearing clothes that were not kovod habrios the yeshiva bochrim should dress like the university students in the early 1900’s. this was the Alter of Slabodka ztz”l. Nowadays only the Chofetz Chiam yeshivas follow this and wear blue shirts and are more stylishly inclined, colored shoes, skinny pants and shirts, Ect. why is this?
Why DO places go like Slabodka in other regards like derech halimud?
Even Slabodka (in Bnei Brak) doesn’t dress like Slabodka.
Skinny pants and shirts aren’t tzniusdig.
Tznius isn’t only for women. (It isn’t limited to clothing either.)
As far as dressing as they did in Slabodka, apparently before Slabodka, and in other yeshivos, they didn’t dress that way, so meiheicha teisi we should follow davka Slabodka?
I once saw a statement from Rav Hutner zt”l on this. He was a slick Slabodka dresser and dressed chassidish after the war. He said that
1. It actually started with Rav Yisroel Salanter, who felt that the bochurim were looked down upon by baalei battim and needed to look like they weren’t nebs
2. He changed because he wanted to show the world what a Jew looked like after churban Europe which wiped out most of the Jews.Also, like Berel Wein said, the Mussar Movement lost. So white shirts black pants it is.
To be clear, most people aren’t wearing that to make a statement. They wear what everyone else wears. The uniform of a Ben Torah today is white shirts black pants.
In SLabotka of old, the bochurim knew who and what they were. Today, if a bochur were to dress like a university student, he would think that he is one and therefore will act like one.
A purim story was told of a yiddishe shikkur (drunk) in the shtetel, that one time while he was in a drunken stupor, the shtetel children pulled a purim prank on him and dressed him in clothes of a priest . When this poor yid awoke, he passed a window and saw his reflection and started to believe that he is a priest….but yet he remained confused because in his heart he knew that he was a Jew,, but the eyes don’t lie and he sees himself dressed as a priest.
Toi solve the problem, be decided to test himself. Everyone knows that priests can read Latin. He will find a Latin book and if he can read it – that is a simon muvhak that he is a priest, but if he cannot read it, that proves that he isn’t a priest but a yid.
He found a Latin book and couldn’t read a word – what a simcha! Now he knew that he is a yid!
But then he got a rifyon (a machshava ra’ah) – maybe b’emes he really is a priest, and there might be some priest that can’t read Latim.
If bochurim today would dress like priests or university students or in goyish non-yeshivish clothes, they will think they are priests. To test if they are yidden or not, they will open a sefer – and lo and behold, they can’t understand the sefer. But know, that is no raya, because there are some bochurim that can’t understand seforim (and there are some priests that can).
L’chaim!
“Also, like Berel Wein said, the Mussar Movement lost. So white shirts black pants it is.”
I found it highly dubious that any knowledgeable person would have ever said anything even close to that. I did a little googling and it seems like Berel Wein would not say “the mussar movement lost.”
Even ignoring the doubtful credibility of the reference, where are you guys getting this idea that white shirts somehow contradicts mussar? It just seems completely random. ~100 years ago university students probably wore button-downs and suits, so that statement in the OP doesn’t carry much weight today unless you think yeshiva bochrim should wear gym shorts and tank tops with Greek letters on them to keep up with the times.
Regarding Slobodka, we started out in high gear, Rav Hutner, Rav Ruderman, Rav Leibowitz, and of course Rav Aharon zatzal. But the approach of independence in learning and dress was trumped by the mesorah of Brisk and the Mir. So Toyreh and Levush are standardized as per that derech.
Neville, it’s in “Patterns in Jewish History” page 55.
To be more precise, the main yeshiva in America was Torah Vodaas, which was half-chassidish. America’s strong chassidish influence meant that it became yeshivisah to say “oy” instead of “ay” (Toyre instead of “Tayreh”) and black and white became the norm. Decrying this now is as silly as the “Zionism is evil” crowd decrying Zionism 70 years after losing that battle.
Perhaps its time to stop the focus on such insignificant measures of a yid’s commitment to Yiddishkeit and daas torah as the color of his shirt or the style of hat. Yes, there are halachos that cover every aspect of our lives but the issue of lvush has taken on a significance way beyond any rational justification compared with one’s midos, day-to-day behavior, compassion for the less fortunate etc.
Or as silly as the shtarker litvaks decrying chassidim completely ignoring the mitzvah deoraysa of zman krias shma. That ship has sailed. Move on.
“unless they started wearing clothes that were not kovod habrios the yeshiva bochrim should dress like the university students ”
Here is the question how do you define “clothes that were not kovod habrios'”?
If you really want to know; the Charedi clothing that they wore prior to that, was way beyond what you are inclining to say (it was similar to Chasidim, long fully bearded etc) . White shirts and dark pants is accepted “stylish” in the business world as well, (though it will depend if its properly fitted or not..)
Asides that, Torah was then in a situation that it was looked down upon, (hence, most bachurim in The Mir couldn’t find any shiduchim. No typical girl wanted to marry a ben torah, then emerged ‘Bais Yaakov’s’ that solved part of that issue…) So a solution had to be found to raise the bar..
It’s Rabbi Berel Wein. The Slabodka philosophy is about respect, no? Then please give respect.
Worry about important things. Why don’t we learn like people in Slabodka and become Gedolim?
“by the mesorah of Brisk and the Mir”
Um, Brisk and Mir are quite different but never mind the details, I guess.
“Or as silly as the shtarker litvaks decrying chassidim completely ignoring the mitzvah deoraysa of zman krias shma. That ship has sailed. Move on.”
Do you mean to say zman hatefillah? I’ve never heard of chassidim missing krias shema. If anything they’re more strict since they don’t hold by the Gra’s times like many Litvaks might.
Do we know what the Alter meant “clothes that are not Kovod Habrios”? What were the typical clothes that were worn by yeshiva bochrim and hamon ahm at that time?
lern,
it became yeshivisah to say “oy” instead of “ay”Can you please elaborate. As far as I understand, the older Litvak’s used to pronounce “Oy/Choylem” with an “Aye” sound, however, most of the Ashknazim pronounce it “Oy” Yekkes with an “Ow” , Sefardim with an O.
I don’t think it is limited to Chassidim at all.“Nowadays only the Chofetz Chiam yeshivas follow this and wear blue shirts and are more stylishly inclined, colored shoes, skinny pants and shirts, Ect. why is this?”
I heard that Rav Henach Leibowitz, the previous RY at CC, said that nowadays we should dress like a businessman. In any event, whatever is mechubad.
Neville, when a chassidish minyan starts at 9:40 on a shabbos, ask around how many of the congregants actually said krias shema. Tell me what you find. Nefesh Hachayim made this point as well. Rav Shwab famously said about the Satmar Rebbe that he would have accepted him as his rebbe if not for the zman krias shma thing which the Satmar Rebbe ignored.
Pronunciations- litvish said Ay rhymes with pay. In Brisk they still speak of “tayreh”. Anyone who had a litvish rebbe knows it’s Teyreh not Toyrah. But those days are gone.
Chassidim say oy. American yeshivas apparently adopted “klal yiddish” which meant saying oy but pronouncing everything else litvish style. so it’s oyb azoy instead of ayb azay.As the Yemenites, who have meticulously preserved pronunciation mesorah, say “O” instead of “oy”, or “ay” “O” is clearly the preferred pronunciation. “Oy”, which yeshivish people act as if it’s a chumra over the modern “O”, is actually a kula since “O” is more correct.
But at this point, saying “oy” is a mistake is pointless. That ship has sailed as well.
“Neville, when a chassidish minyan starts at 9:40 on a shabbos, ask around how many of the congregants actually said krias shema.”
That is absolute bologna. There are plenty of non-chassidishe minyanim that don’t reach krias shema until after zman during parts of the year as well (maybe the whole year by M”A). Everyone says it before davening.Neville, you’re on. Anyone here is welcome to join the challenge. Go to a late chassidishe minyan on shabbos and ask around who said krias shema before coming. Report back. As per Neville, the number should be 0. If it’s more than 0, then the Nefesh Hachaim is correct.
“Nefesh Hachayim made this point as well.”
The Nefesh Hachayim (end of SH 4) is not referring to this case, he is speaking as a general term. I will quote:
ואתה הקורא. אל תדמה שמלבי הוצאתי הדברים. כי את כל זאת בחנתי ונסיתי. כאשר נתתי לבי לדרוש ולתור. ועיני ראו רבים אשר יחפצו קרבת אלקים. ונכשלים במו אלה הדברים הנ”ל אשר מפיהם אלי נאמרו מלבם. ובעיני ראיתי במקום א’ איזה אנשים שהורגלו בזה זמן כביר עד שכמעט נשכח מהם זמן תפלת המנחה שקבעו לנו רז”ל. ואדרבה נקבע בלבם מרוב ההרגל כמו דין והלכה שתפלת המנחה עיקרה אחר צאת הכוכבים. וכשאדם אומר לחברו נתפלל תפלת מנחה. הוא משיבו נראה ונעיין אם כבר נראו הכוכבים ברקיע. וה’ יסלח. להם. ויכפר לשוגה ופתי:
“Rav Shwab famously said about the Satmar Rebbe that he would have accepted him as his rebbe if not for the zman krias shma thing which the Satmar Rebbe ignored”
Sorry, but you are totally confused. No way did he “ignore” Zman KS. He davened after zman tefilah, but he indeed did say KS at the earliest zman. Only total Am Haaratzim are not aware that about KS, in fact, most shuls inc Chassidim have signs in large print reminding all about Zman KS!
“Pronunciations- litvish said Ay rhymes with pay. In Brisk they still speak of “tayreh”. Anyone who had a litvish rebbe knows it’s Teyreh not Toyrah.”
While you are correct about the older Livish etc …However, in Brisk they do NOT pronounce “ay” at Krias haTorah nor at Krias Shema. That’s a fact, so obviously it is not the correct…
Nev,
“There are plenty of non-chassidishe minyanim that don’t reach krias shema until after zman during parts of the year as well”
While I agree with you, however, as per halacha one should try say Krias Shma with the brachos b’zmano (Gra’s zman) .The inappropriate clothes consisted in pants that were not pressed. Or shirts not starched. Better to forego a meal and loolook presentable. כך היא דרכה.
its the yeshiva world that has changed not the derech of slabodka,. Acoording to those very serious bnei torah some of whom are today a rosh kollel, rav and others from before long beach was black and white and what it is today were wearing colored shirts spitzy slick dressers as were most other yeshivas of the day. ive been told it was Rav Aharon who introduced the idea of black and white for bnei torah. As i remeber those days back when, most yeshivas let the bachrim wear colored shirts, in style suits and hats etc. yes even chervon yeshiva the mesivtah bachrim were told to wear blue shirts. till Rav Dovid Choen became the rosh yeshivah. Rav Avrahom Kanerak the perhaps last talmid still living from Rav Baruch Ber said white shirts have nothing to do with frumkit. Society deems it a more formal type of shirt.
If i am not mistaken the GRA says to say O
Gaon: That’s lehatchilah. He’s claiming they are mevatel the mitzvah altogether. His only proof seems to be that he’s inferring from the time of their minyan that they MUST not be saying the shema. That’s a pretty embarrassing mistake even for a newcomer.
Mussar is not dead. Its the degree of emphasis that is different. In Yershiva Chofetz Chaim the mahlaeach is such
that there is a half hour mussar seder ever day and 2x a week there is a smooze. Sunday there is a half hour chzaros hasmooze. The derech of the yeshiva also is that when talmidmi get to Beis Medrash they have to say 3 smoozim a year that are there own orginal smooze. lastly, the become trained when saying a dvar torah it has to be done by saying a smooze not yeshivasha reid. There is a very specfic way the smooze is constructed. So while this might seem extreme others say smoozin and have mussar seder.Lern,
“Nefesh Hachayim made this point as well.”
I don’t think the Nefesh Hachayim (end of SH 4) is referring to this case, he is speaking as a general term. I will quote:
ואתה הקורא. אל תדמה שמלבי הוצאתי הדברים. כי את כל זאת בחנתי ונסיתי. כאשר נתתי לבי לדרוש ולתור. ועיני ראו רבים אשר יחפצו קרבת אלקים. ונכשלים במו אלה הדברים הנ”ל אשר מפיהם אלי נאמרו מלבם. ובעיני ראיתי במקום א’ איזה אנשים שהורגלו בזה זמן כביר עד שכמעט נשכח מהם זמן תפלת המנחה שקבעו לנו רז”ל. ואדרבה נקבע בלבם מרוב ההרגל כמו דין והלכה שתפלת המנחה עיקרה אחר צאת הכוכבים. וכשאדם אומר לחברו נתפלל תפלת מנחה. הוא משיבו נראה ונעיין אם כבר נראו הכוכבים ברקיע. וה’ יסלח. להם. ויכפר לשוגה ופתי:
“Rav Shwab famously said about the Satmar Rebbe that he would have accepted him as his rebbe if not for the zman krias shma thing which the Satmar Rebbe ignored”
Sorry, but you seem to confuse the two. No way did he “ignore” Zman KS. He davened after zman tefilah (Chatzos?) but he indeed did say KS at the earliest zman. Please name the source.
As for your claim that many miss Krias Shma, only total Am Haaratzim are not aware that about KS. In fact, most shuls including Chassidim have signs in large print reminding all about Zman KS!
One very serious Ben Torah from the old Long Beach days decried the fact that everything today is to conform.
He said that back in the day, conformity wasnt the norm. Each person developed according to his own pace. ive noticed to many bachrim who feel very constaned the need to conform in every aspect of there lives. They cant have suits that have any hint of style, colred shirts. colored socks etc. Yet there is a Yesivah in Queens that still lets the bachrim were all of the above and are still solid bnei torah who stheig and go on to learn for 14 to 17 years post high school. Then they get smecha got out and work for Klal Yisroel. Rav Henoch showed his talmidim the beauty of torah the beauty of amkos hatoarah the grandour of slbodkah mussar and gadlous haadam. through that he got his talmidim to change and become serious bnei torah not through conformity but through the beauty of torah and letting bachrim grow at there own speed . Maybe if this approach we woulnd’t have so many kids who are unhappey and such an OD problem.In all my years on the CR, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a thread created arguing that white-shirts are inherently holier, yet I’ve seen probably over 10 threads arguing against davka-white-shirt in favor of CC’s approach. For people who are supposed to be secure with your frumulinity, you sure like to get defensive.
LernTayrah,
“Nefesh Hachayim made this point as well.”
I don’t think The Nefesh Hachayim (end of SH 4) is referring to this case. He is speaking as a general term. I will quote:
ואתה הקורא. אל תדמה שמלבי הוצאתי הדברים. כי את כל זאת בחנתי ונסיתי. כאשר נתתי לבי לדרוש ולתור. ועיני ראו רבים אשר יחפצו קרבת אלקים. ונכשלים במו אלה הדברים הנ”ל אשר מפיהם אלי נאמרו מלבם. ובעיני ראיתי במקום א’ איזה אנשים שהורגלו בזה זמן כביר עד שכמעט נשכח מהם זמן תפלת המנחה שקבעו לנו רז”ל. ואדרבה נקבע בלבם מרוב ההרגל כמו דין והלכה שתפלת המנחה עיקרה אחר צאת הכוכבים. וכשאדם אומר לחברו נתפלל תפלת מנחה. הוא משיבו נראה ונעיין אם כבר נראו הכוכבים ברקיע. וה’ יסלח. להם. ויכפר לשוגה ופתי:
“Rav Shwab famously said about the Satmar Rebbe that he would have accepted him as his rebbe if not for the zman krias shma thing which the Satmar Rebbe ignored”
Sorry, but you seem to be confusing the two. No way did he “ignore” Zman KR”S. While he davened after zman tefilah, he indeed did say KR”S at the earliest zman. As for your claim, only total Am Haaratzim are not aware about KS, in fact, most shuls inc. Chassidim have signs in large print reminding all about Zman K”S!
“Pronunciations- litvish said Ay rhymes with pay. In Brisk they still speak of “tayreh”. Anyone who had a litvish rebbe knows it’s Teyreh not Toyrah.”
While you are correct about the older Livish etc …However, in Brisk they do NOT pronounce “ay” at Krias haTorah nor at Krias Shema. That’s a fact, so obviously it is not the halachakly correct…
Rav Yaakov Bender put out a book a few years back called “Chinuch with Chessed”. One question he deals with is how to tell your kid to be makpid on zman krias shma when his chassidish zeidy doesn’t care about zman krias Shma. He explains how you should stress its halachic importance but say zeidy has a mesora or something like that. But clearly it’s a real issue and common enough to address in a book, not something that I made up.
Lern,
“Rav Yaakov Bender put out a book”While I don’t know about Rav Bender’s book…ever heard the phrase:
פוק חזו” ?
Just walk into any Chassidik shtiebel in BP CH etc you will see plenty of Zman Krias Shma” signs hanging on the walls. Most Chassidim I know of are aware about the Zman and even when davening late have the minhag to say it along birchas hatorah.I agree they are more lack of zmanim, but that is not as per “official” policy as you assumed. No way did Satmar rav miss a dOraisa..
I am quite familiar with pok chazu. And I did just that. The majority of chassidim I have met davening at these 10 am shacharises don’t care about zman krias shma. they usually quote chassidishe toyrah about mekadesh yisroel vehazmanim or lo hifsid or other such distortions of halacha. the official signs are for the machmirim but it’s not the minhag of most chassidim. You can ask them. Rabbi Bender’s book has it for a reason- it’s a davar matzui meod. It’s a pashut metzius. Sorry for ruining your temimus.
Chassidim are certainly makpid on the mitzva dioraisoh of Elias Shma bizmanah. It’s motzi shem ra to suggest otherwise. I have many chassidish relatives who be aghast at the suggestion that they aren’t makpid on this. Please do your homework. The nefesh hachaim was referring to a small group of people in his time. Inapplicable to the chassidim of our time. Of course there are amhaaratzim in every community that don’t know basic halacha but don’t insinuate that this is acceptable behavior.
I do not understand the question. Most yeshiva bachurim do very much follow the Slabodka mehalaich in terms of clothing only. The norm has become to wear non-iron or pressed crisp clean white shirts and dress pants. The fact that “black and white” has taken over is a separate issue. Your average yeshiva bachur is dressed much more presentable and spends much more on his clothing than most professionals. This is much more the norm than the shlumpy look of old.
The better question is what happened to the real mehalaich of slabodka to work long hours on character development?“but it’s not the minhag of most chassidim”
Find me one legit chassidic source that claims so. On Zman tfilah they once had a minhag, and it was based on הכנה לתפלה etc.
However, the ones that you meet at the after 10 minyan claiming so are just a few לצים that slept late, not the ones that were occupied with learing a few hours prior to davening
They indeed have no legit heter even al pi chassidus. I will qoute part:“המאחרים סומכים על קריאת שמע קטנה, שקוראים בהשכמה, ובוודאי יש טעם נסתר, כי מי יבוא אחריהם, אחר שאנו רואים שהם צדיקים גדולים בכל מעשיהם, רק לא בפרט הזה שהוא זמן תפילה שהוא מדרבנ”
(ספר הויכוחא רבא)ה”יהודי הקדוש”:
ידוע כי ההכנה למצווה כמצווה. אם כן: ההכנות לתפילה כתפילה. את ההכנות הריני עושה בזמן תפילה. (שיח שרפי קודש ח”ד ע’ 119
As a reminder, these protests of “of course chassidim are makpid on zman krias shma, there’s a befeirush sign up in shul!” aren’t a kashye on me. They are a kashye on Rabbi Bender and Artscroll that published this as a davar matzui. Feel free to call up Darchei and Artscroll and ask them. Again, pok chazu. Ask the chassidim who daven at these 10 am or 11 am shacharisses if they were makpid on zman krias shma, and report back your findings.
As to the ikkar of this thread, take a look at yeshivas chevron in Yerushalayim or Slabodka in Bnei Brak. Neither of them follow the Slabodka derech. Rav Aharon Kotler was from Slabodka. So was Rav Hutner. As was Rav Shach. The biggest talmidim of Slabodka don’t follow Slabodka. So your kashye isn’t on the velt as much as it’s on the gedolim who came from Slabodka and dropped its mehalech.
LT:
I’m not sure who you’re using as your test case, but all of us have observed multiple Chassidishe communities and found what you’re saying not to be the case. I’ll let you in on another secret: 10 o’clock shachris is not the norm for chassidim. Only Chabad, and maybe some neo-chassidic types who like to sleep in after partying the night before. And, it should be said that true Chabadniks are careful to say the shema b’zman.We aren’t accusing you of lying. It sounds like you’re just making inferences from a group that does not represent anything close to the norm.
Neville, your protest is noted for the record. Nevertheless, Rabbi Bender, Artscroll, and my own experiences say otherwise.
“Rabbi Bender, Artscroll,”
כבודו במקומו מונח but I am quoting sources from chassidic seforim that were written at the very hight of chassidus, and you are quoting a book that mentioned it as a mashol and as a BTW…
Bottom line, and as Neville pointed out, missing zman krias shma certainly goes against the official policy.
They mainly learn Nezikin plus Ketubot and Gittin so they dress like lawyers.
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