Why don't the Rabbonim enforce Tznius?

Interesting. The government has controlled where we can smoke, using the logic (almost universally accepted!) that your right to smoke ends where my nose begins. Meaning your right cannot be used to PHYSICALLY harm me.

I propose the same logic as follows:

YES! You have a right to dress as you wish; but it ends where my sight begins.

Meaning your ‘right’ cannot be used to SPIRITUALLY’ harm me.

“jewishf- firstly, i never spoke about that. that wasnt the topic of discussion. we were arguing whehter a mans taava to look is bigger or not than a womans taava to dress inappropriately. agav, this nekuda came up when i was being miva’er the inyan, and from what i heard from a few people, the feelings and thoughts are different even when a woman has a taavah to look.”

“i never spoke about that”– EXACTLY. You talk about “a man’s nisayon” and “a woman’s nisayon” as if men looking and women dressing were the ONLY nisyonos that exist with regard to tznius. Not true. And I don’t believe for a second that “the feelings and thoughts are different”. Different how? If a man is looking at a woman in an ervah way versus a woman looking at a man in an ervah way, it’s exactly the same taiva. I don’t understand. Obviously if it gets to the point of thinking “I sure wish I could do xyz with this person” the xyz part is different because of biology. But what relevance does that have to anything at all?

I am not trying to pick on you specifically. This is a widespread attitude that people have and it drives me crazy.

jewsihf-ok, once we’re sure its my caveman attitude, I can respond in kind. my post was very clear. The discussion at hand was unconcerned with a different nisayon. what wasnt clear? a woman nisayon to dress inappropriately and her nisayon to look are two different nisyonos. we are comparing the frequency of each gendewr falling to that specific nisayon.

“we were arguing whehter a mans taava to look is bigger or not than a womans taava to dress inappropriately…”

that is the discussion. if you want we can argue if wimmin have a bigger taava for treif, i dont mind.

“Obviously if it gets to the point…” there lies the difference. that is a mans starting point. its not your fault you dont get it.

truth is, i think its really well known. you know the line in the goyish articles,”why is it always about BLANK?” there, again is the difference. wimmin.

Men do tend to be more visual by nature than women. It’s more of a man’s nature to lust after his eyes than a woman. Hence the restrictions and gedarim placed on men.

Naftush, you’ve just excised an entire mitzvah from the Torah with your “logic”. I guess you don’t like lifnei iver.

I’d prefer the Torah’s way, in which we are commanded to withstand temptation, and also prohibited from presenting others with temptation.

The two are by no means mutually exclusive.

I know it’s off topic but, writersoul, yes! What are those parents thinking? Or a 5 year old in my class who can’t go to the bathroom himself because his skinny jeans are so tight that he has accidents!

DY and Realist, thank you for challenging my comment; this is how I grow. I defend the comment on two grounds. First, an immodestly dressed woman may indeed create a mikhshol and thereby commit an ‘avera, but she hasn’t drawn me into an ‘avera of my own just by being in the street. I must observe lo taturu. Second, connecting this with lifne ‘iver and asking “the rabbis” to enforce tzniut on those grounds leads to several impossibilities. The dinim of lifne ‘iver broaden the prohibition beyond tzniut issues and also personalize it: we are enjoined against placing stumbling blocks, generally, in each other’s path, individually. For some of us, even modestly dressed women are a mikhshol. For others, guess what, the same gender is a mikhshol. Yet others are drawn to shopping malls until they endanger their families’ parnassa. For me, salty carbohydrates are a mikhshol that verges on pikuah nefesh. None of these people can demand the removal of his/her personal mikhshol from the public domain, least of all with enforcement by “the rabbis.”

Bottom line. Worry about yourself, not what someone else is or isnt doing. This means, speak act and dress appropriately and keep your eyes focused where they should be. This is true of both men and women.

MCP- except they are coming from understanding the sugya and you are being megale ponim. theres the chiluk.

@interjection

“jewishfeminist2: the issur is on shmiras habris so, in regards to this taava it is irrelevant what thoughts a woman has when she looks at a man.”

you are simply incorrect. women have an issur of lo sasuru just as much as a man and it has nothing to do with shmiras habris. those are two separate inyanim. The issue of tznius similarly is not just about lo sasuru or taiva. Even if you are by yourself there is a chiyuv for both men and women to be properly covered.

would post some links to hebrewbooks.org but there is a thread on this in the coffee room already. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lo-taturu-and-women

frum girl 101: Yeah, but everyone knows it’s only shirt color and head covering that really matters.

The reason why many shuls are set up with one-way glass mechitzas (I assume this is what you are referring to) is that all the action is on the men’s side. In shuls that have a setup where the women are so blocked off that they can barely see or hear anything, I get frustrated. I mean really, if I’m not part of the tzibbur to the extent that I can’t even keep track of what they’re doing over there, what’s the point? Why not just stay home and daven b’yechida? This has nothing whatsoever to do with checking out the men. I bet if the tables were turned and women led everything and men had to sit in the women’s section, they’d also complain that they couldn’t see, and not as a pretext for staring at our bodies.

jfem- I heard fromm my wife and sisters that on simchas torah the ONLY thing theyre doing for a couple of hours is watching the men. not davening as part of a tzibbur. and there must be a reason why this idea is not frowned upon, even in yeshivish circles, but you can bet it would never happen the other way around.

migoo, it’s not lo sasuru because we are not looking at the men to look at the men. It’s as if you would say that women can’t attend baseball games because of lo sasuru. Shuls would not be set up the way they are if it were really an issur d’oraisa. And by the way, a man singing can be ervah too (think Frank Sinatra, Elvis, and other crooners). I am not arguing with the halacha, just saying that it’s not always so simple and one must be careful. The “spirit of the halacha” is also a consideration.

Toi, that is exactly why I daven at a shul that lets women dance (on our own side, out of sight of the men, thank you very much). I could never stand around watching the men and twiddling my thumbs. Of course it would not happen the other way around, and of course men and women are different and have different attractions. My point is that we are less different than one might think, and furthermore that tznius applies to men as well. I think it is sad that we continue to pile chumra upon chumra on the women with regard to tznius while completely ignoring the men.

I’m not going to try to go through all the posts here. The one thing I’d like to suggest is that everyone try to look at accounts written by people, especially women, who’ve had near death experiences and see what they learned about tznius issues during their experiences in the next world, which is where we’ll all be spending eternity. There’s one by a Toldos Aharon woman from about 25 years ago, who lived by TA standards and still had a hair-raising time. Look at three things and you won’t do aveiros … before Whom you will inevitably (without any possibility of escape) have to give a din v’cheshbon. True, I should pay attention to this myself.

@migoo

As I said before to another poster I have no idea where you got the idea of the lo sasuru being just by a man from. Additionally the reason men are separated by a mechitza from women is a dirabanan according to everyone but rav moshe zatzal. And R’ Moshe’s shita wont help your cause for obvious reasons. There is a concept of kol ish according to rav yehuda hachasid and the bach held that kol isha was only by a married woman! Assuming that the issur of kol has anything to do with looking is a bad assumption as it seems that many poskim did not hold that way. Basically your whole house of cards is based on a lot of halachically faulty assumptions.

migoo, what is a “cheerleaders’ game”? I assume you mean if a man looked at cheerleaders at a football game?

Anyway, your point makes no sense. Cheerleaders by definition are ervah. Never mind that they are wearing almost no clothing…they dance and jump around to be looked at. THEY are the show. Versus baseball, which is not about the men’s bodies per se but the bases, the runs, the score, the team, etc. Completely different (and they’re covered up– now maybe you could argue that a woman shouldn’t watch a basketball game because the men are dressed in skimpy outfits, but that’s a different story).

We are discussing a halachic issue. When I say I am not arguing with the halacha, what I mean is that I’m not trying to say that the halacha is wrong. I just think people today interpret and apply it too stringently.

“Bottom line. Worry about yourself, not what someone else is or isn’t doing.” – apushatayid

End of thread.

“Anyway, can anyone list a Rav that doesnt suggest this?”

Mine. He deals with individuals of the kehilla, as individuals of the kehilla. He doesnt issue cookie cutter guidelines or advice to anyone. To one he might suggest the 4 inch rule, to another he might suggest 6, while yet another he may make no suggestion at all. He works with everyone on their own level.

I guess the “how to halacha books” are for those who do not have a Rav. Baruch Hashem, my family has one.

He probably decides based on what each person is ready to accept. Force 4 inches onto some women and it will push them off the derech. For those, it’s better to leave 4 inches as an ideal to aspire to when they are ready, and only then. I assume that this rav only makes these suggestions to women he knows well (otherwise he would have no idea of when they are ready).

I know a rav who works with baalei teshuva on a regular basis. He kashered one man’s kitchen and the guy was ready to totally accept kashrus, but the rav actually said it was ASSUR for him to take it on all at once. He said to him, right now you’re crawling. I am kashering your kitchen and I expect you to keep it kosher, but I also expect you to eat anything you want outside of your house. He knew that despite this man’s initial enthusiasm, if he were to try to go from completely treif to completely kosher all at once it would be too overwhelming. Therefore he insisted on baby steps. I heard this story many years ago and that quote “right now you’re crawling” has stayed with me and helped me through a lot of tough times.

Therapist – (and wouldn’t a true therapist acknowledge that there is not a one size fits all aspect to Judaism?) of course there are different standards for different people. Do we not say “chanoch lanaar al pi darko?”

A smart and intuitive rov knows that not every answer fits to every situation, even when the situation seems identical to another. That’s why the same rov can give the same person two different piskei halacha on the same shailah that occurs more than once. Or gives one p’sak to one person and the opposite p’sak to another ON THE SAME INYAN.

One girl might find it more palatable to wear a skirt that meets the absolute bare minimal requirements for tznius. She is following the halacha. Another girl might be more comfortable wearing a skirt four inches below her knees. She is following the halacha. Another might need it to be a couple of inches longer, in order to feel she is conforming to proper standards. They are EACH following the halacha. Whatever the Rov you mentioned feels personally (and he, too is personalizing our religion by making that statement), there are shivim panim L’Torah, and other halachic viewpoints that are considered valid. And that is why there cannot be a Tznius police type rabbinic enforcement, because there will never be a complete consensus in this hot-button issue. Each rov in his own Shul or Yeshivah has the authority to expect a level that conforms to his hashkafa. But as each rov has his own personal hashkafa, there cannot be, as I said, a one size fits all philosophy. As long as the minimum standard is being met (not saying that is the ideal situation), the girls are being tzniusdig. You may disagree (feel free), but thinking otherwise, is how divisiveness occurs. Right now, I am thinking achdus would be a nice thing in klal Yisroel.

“personalizing’ our religion has never worked.”

The only way to give good advice, is to personalize it. 4 inches is a very good suggestion to ensure one is properly covered at all times in all situations. I do not deny that. However, it is just that, a very practical suggestion. It is NOT halacha, and a Rav must use his seichel when to give certain advice and suggest certain things, and when not. I am not him, and I do not claim to be inside his head to know what motivates him to advise certain things, to whom and when. Regarding your knowledge of his name, that is largely irrelevent to this discussion since you have obviously been guided by someone else to use the 4 inch rule. I am not looking to offer you guidance or to disagree with the advice you were given, that is for your Rav, Husband or father as the case may be.

“see sefer Oz V’hadar Levushah, in English, by HRH”G Rav Falk SHLIT”A from Gateshead, England”

One might also want to review Halichos Bas Yisroel by Rav Yitzchak Yaackov Fuchs. Whatever guide you do read, the most important thing is, when in doubt, ASK YOUR OWN QUESTIONS TO YOUR OWN RAV.

apushatayid +1

fully agree with everything you said. guides were never meant to take the place of a rav or be the final say. halachic guides in general tend to be more machmir so people don’t get confused and so that the author isnt nichshol anyone.

I do have to say that I enjoy the fact that this discussion is taking place with intelligence and Seichal. Let’s keep in mind that 4 inches is only one facet of Tznius. Wearing tight or extremely showy clothing would appear to also be a lack of tznius. I think we can all agree that whatever we follow, we should respect one another. The practice that some women have of going over to another woman and “bashing ” her, would appear to be much more serious than one inch here or there. To answer the more direct question of “why dont the rabbanim enforce tznius”, this is a good question. Perhaps they dont have the guts or are afraid for their jobs. One answer may be for a Rav to have a lifetime contract to feel secure.