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Although we all know the halacha of four inches below the knee, many people just dress as they please.
I observed Bnei Torah, kollel learners meeting their wives after davening. Some of the women were really dressed Pritzus’dik.
I would like to put forth a plan that the Rabbonim should unite and deny any husband, whose wife dresses against halacha, entrance to their shul for any Tefila, including weekdays, Shabbos and Yom Tov and Yomim Noraim.
Their children shouldn’t be allowed in schools, as was done regarding Internet.
This would work for many communities.
I believe that most people mean well and just need a push to do the right thing. In a very short time we can eradicate this problem.
How long have you been a member of the taliban?
Which rabbanim are going to patrol and inspect women’s knees?
More seriously (though that’s nothing to sneeze at), I have NEVER heard ANYWHERE that four inches below the knee is a halacha.
Just saying, though, I don’t want no rabbanim inspectin’ MY knees.
Though if they decide to get women to do it, I know of loads of women who would queue up to join the knee-inspecting committee. To be honest, I don’t want THEM inspecting my knees either.
I’m going to reiterate what I believe, which is that while hochayach tochiyach is a thing, that does not extend (and definitely not in this day and age, where a Jewish governing body does not exist) to enforcement. A person’s decisions are their own, and they will answer for them after 120.
This is completely aside from all of the impracticalities of this plan (be honest, did the internet one REALLY work? The TV one definitely didn’t), but I still don’t think it’s anyone’s place to do this.
And before too long there will not be many people davening in ANY shul. (You WERE kidding, of course…)
What do you practically expect rabbis to do about the situation?
“I think that anyone who speaks during davening, comes late to davening, says lashon hora, hurts someone’s feelings, or wastes even a minute from Torah learning should be put into cherem!”
In truth I think that we have to realize that the way to bring people to Torah is by demonstrating the beauty of the Torah way of life through our own actions.
— Rule for Life —
Woman are usually nice, sensitive, caring, open minded individuals .
But Dont u Ever confront a woman on her tznius standards…
it never ends nicely
Good luck tho =)
Yes, let’s punch the children because their mothers don’t keep this Halacha that you speak of. Yes actual tsnius is important, but everyone is in charge of their own lives and bodies and what they do is between them an Hashem. Do you thin if after 120 iyH he will be happy that you ( or like minded people) were responsible for children not getting the yeshiva education they deserve because you banned them based on their mothers visible upper calf?
I’m calling troll. Not because it’s obviously a troll, but I’m calling a secondary level of trolling for beginning with an inherently false statement.
Actually, I’m not calling troll. I’m calling Apikores. Changing Halachah is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor because it’s K’firah (see Yam Shel Shlomo Bava Kama 4:9). So I don’t think I’d want to Daven in your Shul regardless, no matter the skirt length of my (nonexistent) wife.
4 inches is NOT halacha. its a SUGGESTED length to ensure the knees are covered at all times
SlichosGenendel is such a meikel.
We know the halacha is that women have to be in a burqa at all times. We should punish all the husbands whose wives don’t wear burqas.
Don’t take outlandish posts too seriously. They are usually authored by bored kids having some fun.
The Mishna Berura (75:2) says that it is sufficient to cover the foreleg to the knee (he does not say if the knee is included).Of course, this also applies to when she is sitting. How much depends on the woman.
Although we all know the halacha of four inches below the knee, many people just dress as they please.
No, it’s not Halacha. It’s a chumra.
based on some of this posters previous posts I am definitely calling troll.
Yes actual tsnius is important, but everyone is in charge of their own lives… and what they do is between them an Hashem.
What people do does affect others, especially in the area of tznius.
Is the post really so outlandish? Tznius standards have fallen considerably across the board in the past couple of years.
I ask a different question. What’s up with all this discussion about “enforcement”? Our batei din are not authorized to enforce anything, nor is any individual Rov. However, since we are capable of making other people’s lives miserable by rejecting their children, disallowing them to daven in a particular shul, ostracizing them within a community, maybe we should exploit all these means to control yetzer horah? Well, it is high time we stopped worrying about someone else’s spirituality and our own physical comforts. Maybe we should try the opposite – worry that others should have their physical needs and comforts supplied, and our own ruchniyus. We’ll all be happier.
That goes for the internet stuff in which we want to punish children for their parents having internet access, and similar types of bullying. It won’t work, and it only makes these “punishers” into complete resho’im. The only remedy that will save Klal Yisroel from all these transgressions is for each individual to undertake a serious project to spread yir’as shomayim in our own homes, communities, yeshivos, batei medrash, and everywhere we go.
And, men, don’t stare at women’s legs to assess hemlines. The looking is the greatest violation of tznius.
TlIk: Exactly. That’s pretty much what I said in my post, which is why even if hochayach tochiyach applies, you can hochayach people all you want, but you CAN’T force them to do anything.
DY: Yes, women should dress tzniusdigly. If they do or not can affect men. (And we’re NOT getting into that whole argument again, please.) But you can’t FORCE women to dress a certain way. You don’t have the authority and it’s between them and the RBSh”O.
I dress perfectly tzniusdigly for my community’s and family’s standards. Would I walk into Meah Shearim or maybe even Lakewood dressed how I do normally in the summer (LONG slinky biz, graphic tee, weird ponytail)? Probably not (and I didn’t, in the case of Meah Shearim- actually, I’m not sure what I would do if I ever went to Lakewood- I’ve never been yet so I never had the opportunity to decide). But on my turf, I’m completely comfortable dressing as I do, and if you walk in and scream, “Where’s the Vaad HaTznius?”, sorry, but you can’t stop me from doing anything. It’s between me and Hashem after a certain point.
Yes dy, tsnius affects men and others, and everyone should dress tsnius . But people have different standards of tsnius, and no one can force them to do anything. NO rav has the right to ban a child from a yeshiva education. No one does. We look to them for guidance, yes, but we ultimately have Hashem to answer to.
I agree.
sign me up as a volunteer inspector.
Look all of you, it’s no secret that tznius standards went way down among the bnei Torah community, as it seems this thread is spesificaly discussing. If the way to go about enforcing standards is that rabbinic should tell women what to wear, probably not. But 2 things, 1) don’t underestimate the issue, don’t mock anyone who is interested in raising awareness in this area, 2) souls Kollels can have any standard they want. (Not that it’s mart to accept a husband based on his wife’s dress code) if its too hard to keep basic tznius, that’s a nisayon that has to be worked on, not s something to be proud of that “I can wear what I want, cuz no-one can tell me not to”.
That being said, there is a famous schmooze by Reb Volba, in which there was a big tayva (in his time) for women to wear mini skirts. He told the yeshiva guys that the reason their wives want to wear this skirts is because tau guts( the yeshiva guys) want them too, and although you don’t tell them outright, they feel what you want subconsciously, so it seems its the kollel guys and husbands that really need to be the ones to work on how they would like ther wife to dres. The wife is not to blame, a wife naturally wants to please her husband.
(Btw this is something I’mstrugling Wth myself – I’m not trying to enforce anything onto anybody, just sayin’)
jbaldy: I agree. I was just pointing out that when you make up Halachos while trolling you lose your Chelek in Olam Haba.
MorahRach
Actually its the job of beis din and the Rabbanim of the city to make sure the Torah is upheld to the best degree possible. Once upon a time in Europe not that long ago every city had its Rabbi and he was THE LAW. If people didnt keep halacha properly there were consequences like cheirems and niduys and kicking people out of town. There were places where they used to give makkos mardus for people who didnt keep halacha. We live in very different times. Today people just do as they feel and the Rabbanim have zero power to change anything. They are petrified of insulting anyone and losing their jobs so they cant push any of the real issues like Tznius and everything related to it as well as other important things.
Mods
Is Bronys comment “sign me up as a volunteer inspector.” appropriate for this website?
as much as the rest of the thread is.
i believe this thread is beyond ridiculous and should be closed.
I believe women should be banned from shopping at certain stores if their husbands don’t learn 2 hours a day. (yes, read the sarcasm)
Why don’t the Rabbonim enforce Tznius?
The 1st thing they require to do to fix Tzeni’us is to do what the Rabbonim in Yerusholayim 300 years ago were doing:- Anyone who reached 20 years old and wasn’t married, was ordered to get married failing which they were expelled from Yerusholayim.
If the Rabbonim don’t feel up to this task, how are they going to ever enforce any other item of Tzeni’us?
147- oh, before the tzionim moved in and started telling the rabbonim what to do?
Rabbis command no respect anymore. Power lies in the hands of big machers with gelt. Power of the purse is an attitude that affects our community. This is one reason why I believe the Rambam felt talmidei chachamim ought to have jobs; if a rabbi becomes dependent upon a community for his parnassah, what does he do when the shul board votes him out because they’re upset he talks about tznius and elevating standards in his sermons? It happens every day. People don’t like being chastized. Tochacha isn’t popular.
Avi K: I have to say that’s a Mishna Berurah that has confused me for a long time; maybe someone can help me here. Depending on where you put your punctuation, the MB can come out l’chumra or l’kula.
The sources he quotes, however, are both l’chumra (as I understand them – see ?”? ??? ? ???? ? [almost quoted verbatim], and ??? ????? ??”? ??”?).
Also if we try to ignore the first half of the Pri Megadim and only take the second half as “psak” (d’hayinu l’kula), it seems he was chozer in seder chalitza – not so sure what to do with it.
Someone care to shed some light?
Something tells me that the people out there voicing the most vociferous objections are the biggest Tznius violators.
& in particular, all these Jewish Doctors treating women, who have no regard whatsoever for Tzeni’us, using Medical needs as an excuse to violate all levels of Tzeni’us.
maskim, youre 100% right.
I think all of the tzniuz shmoozen ought to be given to the men, asking them the simple question if they want all of the men who see their wives to be ogling them and imagining all of kinds things since that is what their wives seem to want with their pritzusdige dress? IMO, any woman who has respect for herself will understand that a little bit more modesty in the style of clothes will go a long way in getting her respect by others and not having them ogle her as she walks by. In America, the goyim whistle at “attractively dressed” women and that is deemed a compliment, but for us it is not. Why can’t she save this for her husband at home? If the husband cannot influence his wife to dress properly, then
To SelichosGenendel-
Tznius is a very very important issue. I have three concerns about what you said:
1) Chumros (stringencies) and good policies must not be confused with halocha. Starting with the eitz ha’da’as (Tree of Knowledge) passing a chumra off as a halocha has caused a lessening of observance. There is no halocha that skirts must be 4 inches below the knee.
2) Rabbonim don’t have the ability to successfully decree those policies which they wish they could. If the rabbonim were able to fix Klal Yisroel’s issues by fiat, it would be wonderful. However, we all know that it doesn’t work that way.
3) We have to be very concerned about depriving a child of his Yiddishkeit because of his parents’ issues. Many of the leading rabbonim and roshei yeshiva would have been deprived of a Torah education if this had been the practice in Klal Yisroel. Out of respect for these Talmidei Chachomim we don’t publicize their background, but I know that many wonderful tzaddikim did not come from families that would pass muster nowadays.
There is no “the Rabbonim.” Different groups have different standards and you know what? That’s OK. We’re all klal Yisrael and we all follow the same Torah but we are not and were never intended to be clones.
I personally wear long skirts and I find it quite amusing that I would be kicked out of your typical Bais Yaakov (I’m way past HS so that’s not really an issue) when in the alte babba’s day a girl wearing today’s BY uniform would have been run out of town for her short skirt.
I agree that it’s appalling the way some frum women dress, and it’s also appalling that some frum men can’t shut their mouths in shul, and and and. We all have stuff to work on. Yes, the way people dress does affect others and if that’s really your top concern, move to Williamsburg. Oh, wait, you’ll still see everything on the street. I guess New Square or Kiryas Joel might work, except that even there the household help wear what they please. I guess you’re stuck. Maybe smear some Vaseline on your glasses.
And by the way, I wouldn’t be so quick to say the laxity in shmiras halashon is less of a problem than the laxity in tznius.
In truth, there is no single mitzvah or even midoh that can be minimized, nor catapulted into ?????? over all others. We just learned this in ???? ???? this past Shabbos – ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????. In that direction, tznius is not more or less important than kashrus, shmiras Shabbos, mezuzah, maakeh, or giving tzedokoh. Similarly, we must think creatively about how to raise standards to where men are put in fewer nisyonos, and ????? ????? is maintained. It is too easy to blame the tragedies of the community on tznius. It is done often, and I reflect on several where there were public outcries to establish “hechsherim” on women’s clothing stores – most a bizarre idea. Can you imagine a Rov sitting perched on a chair by the dressing/fitting rooms of a women’s clothing store? Just how would the nuances of tznius be judged – through actual ????????
Instead of looking to punish, ban, reject, and “enforce” some standards, why not look for ways to increase the levels of ????? in everything the community does? Try making shmiras mitzvos enjoyable. Try expanding chesed to insuring that no children are left to the influences of the street. Let’s raise the levels of ??????? in everything we do, cherishing the moments of ?????, beautifying mitzvos, helping one another, etc. The light that emanates from these mitzvos can chase away lots of darkness of negativity. Tznius will follow automatically, and no one was rejected, banned, or embarrassed in the process. Or am I dreaming?
SlichosGenendel: you are right, but i think that skirt lengths is not the only problem, the colors, style etc. are also issues that should be addressed as well.
Slichos. I won’t pick apart your post but you are wrong about one thing. I “object” to what the OP stated and I dress completely tsniusdig. I also cover all my hair unlikely people where I live who where their snoods 3 inches back- but because they do should their children be denied a yeshiva education, and should their husbands be banned from learning Torah in a beis medrish? This is not 300 years ago, it’s 2013, things are never going to go back to the way they were in the sense that no, no rabbi has the right to ban an education or Torah learning from someone because their wives don’t dress the way yours do. What’s driving me nuts too is that the people you are talking about are probably woman who where knew length skirts, nude tights that have no seem and nail polish. My how people’s priorities have chaned. I do wonder what Hashem things of all the time spent thinking about these “untsnius ” women when the time could be spent giving tzedeka, playing with your children, talking to your own wife or learning Torah.
if everybody works on themselves without looking at wat other ppl do then life would be a lot better
“Their children shouldn’t be allowed in schools, as was done regarding Internet.”
and look how well that worked out.
I don’t think it is so tznius to discuss women’s tznius issues in a public forum. Good luck finding a new shul, SlichosGenendel.
Slichos,
Maybe you can start an initiative in your community to focus on inyanei tzniut.
“We are fed up with the Hefkerus in Tznius.”
Perhaps this Mitzvah has been taught in an unpleasant manner?
An article in Jewish Action (summer 5773/2013 page 28) discusses the feeling Bais Yaakov graduates have about certain Mitzvos, warm or cold. Often the author finds them very cold about Tznius.
Also, wild actions of a few have a destructive effect worldwide.
Those who throw bleach need to be publicly excommunicated to minimize the worldwide destruction they cause.
The current approach to Tznius has distorted its proper meaning into a Muslim-like focus on covering up bodies instead of the larger issue of how we, men and women, act and behave.
Newsflash…we are not cows. There are complicated reasons for the things that all of us do. To reduce all our actions simply to a kind of herd mentality displays a very pessimistic understanding of what being a human being and a Jew is all about!
‘Scuse me, but please excuse my complete and utter disgustedness at SG’s latest pearl of wisdom.
1) Regarding the Halacha of 4 inches, the Rabbonim should come out with a uniform standard, whether it’s 4 or 3 or whatever.
You’re showing such a complete lack of understanding of the meaning of the word HALACHA that it’s mindboggling. Halacha is not something that can be made or changed or bent. It exists. We don’t pull it out of thin air. We can change our understanding of it, but the way you’re suggesting it is- off.
2) Who will enforce it? Perhaps the Rabbi’s wife, and some community leaders wives. It’s no secret who the provocative dressers are. The violators would be warned first by the Rabbi’s wife.
If this is part of the duties of a rabbi’s wife, then I know of a lot of rabbis who will be out of a job because their wives would NEVER do such a thing.
3) All those people who say let’s enforce learning or Lashon Hara are missing the point: HOW YOU DRESS IN PUBLIC IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS BUT MINE BECAUSE I HAVE TO SEE IT.
This is just so strange. That’s like my saying, “The fact that you painted your front door orange is not your business but mine because I have to see it.” It’s really your business, you say? You paid for the paint and the labor, after all! But no. I’m the one who has to see it, so you need to repaint it BLACK. At your expense.
Remember- you can’t wear those squeaky shoes anymore- I have to listen to them! And please don’t wear a streimel or blue socks- something about them just gets me SO annoyed.
We girls get propagandized a lot that “the spirituality of men rests ENTIRELY on us!” And maybe some of it does, but that misses the whole point- that however much we might be able to help, THE MITZVAH IS YOURS. It is YOUR responsibility as a whole not to look. I can’t stop you from painting your front door orange- I’ll just try to ignore it when I pass by. Sure, sometimes I’ll see it accidentally, when I’m trying not to, and I’ll cringe and grit my teeth, but I still can’t make you repaint your door. I can think, wow, it’s totally your fault that I’m so annoyed today!- but that’s not going to stop the fact that it’s YOUR door.
Writersoul
You may not like it but the fact remains that even though a man is obligated to watch where he looks all the time when women or inappropriate images are present (trust me that’s infinitely harder than adding an inch or 2 to your dress length) any woman that dresses in a provocative way will pay dearly for it in the next world and probably in this one as well. Dressing inappropriately is an easy way to rack up a nice tally of aveiros every time you walk the street. Think about that you can be machshil 100’s of men a day. Talk about doing aveiros wholesale. A woman who dresses inappropriately is a public hazard from a spiritual perspective. It’s not for naught that its called dressed to kill.
the little i know +1
writersoul +1
sg- ”Something tells me that the people… Correct me if I’m wrong”. You’re wrong.
Find something that applies to yourself to work on, since women’s tzniyus doesn’t seem to be something you understand so well. also, tzniyus affects the dressed and those seeing her. Loshon hora affects the speaker and those in hearing distance. Talking in shul affects the speaker, the listeneners, those disturbed, the level of the tefillah. And there is a concept of tzniyus for men too. And tzniyus is not only in dress, perhaps more so in action. Ditto for men.
“trust me that’s infinitely harder than adding an inch or 2 to your dress length”
How would you know? Is there someone who has experienced both nisayonos who can prove that one is harder than the other?
Women are obligated to follow hilchot Tznius. Once she’s passed the bare minimum it’s on the man to not look. These four inches, choking neckline, colors, etc., are *lifnim mishuras hadin*! If a woman chooses to keep extra chumras, it’s beautiful but NOT obligatory. In fact the more society tries to force women to keep the chumras, claiming that that chumras are Torah misinai, the more it seems that Torah Halacha isn’t livable and it becomes worth trying. For me it took until after I graduated BY and learned from a MO rabbi the EXACT Halacha that I realized that the Halacha is definitely doable, it’s these chumras ( sometimes mishugasim) which people pass off as Halacha that make it not worth trying.
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