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Everywhere in Tanach the plural of שבת is שבתות. Why do people say “shabbosim”? There is also “zechusim” instead of זכויות.
Get a life. You don’t want to speak Yiddish you don’t have to. It’s a language that has been spoken for hundreds of years by great people who knew dikduk better than you.
Get a life. You don’t want to speak Yiddish you don’t have to. It’s a language that has been spoken for hundreds of years by great people who knew dikduk better then you.
Excuse me while I wrap up several Talleisim, after spilling out this mayim acharonim vasser on Yuntiff.
If someone has a valid point it is wrong to use ad hominin remarks to personally insult them. Your point about great people using a language says nothing about using bad grammar. Perhaps the great people you refer to actually spoke the language but used proper grammar when using Hebrew terms?
Why do the Byzantine Jews refer to a בית כנסת as a “kenessa”?
Why do the older Beta Yisra’el Jews call a כהן “kahenat”? Why do the same Beta Yisrael Jews call the תורה “Orit” and שבת “Sanbat”?
Why do some pedantic people in Israel write “בר המצווה” when the term is a carryover from Judeo-Aramaic and should thus have no הא הידיעה? (It would be incorrect, for instance, to write בעל התריסין and the like, but I have met Israeli Hebrew teachers who are ignorant in rabbinic literature and insist upon “בר המצווה”.)
Why do most people vocalize רבי as רַבִּי or רֶבִּי when, as the יעב”ץ demonstrates in לחם שמים, the word should be pronounced רְבִּי?
Why did the Jews of Kaifeng vocalize the שם הוי-ה as “Yiweh”?
Why do subliterate people in Israel say אוֹתְכֶם and אוֹתְכֶן?
Why have most Israeli publishers of siddurim done away with the מתג, which indicates proper syllabic stress? This causes most people to exchange מלעיל for מלרע and vice-versa.
Why do most Hebrew professors not know that the actual word “מלרע” is itself מלעיל?
Why do most people pronounce וּלְיִשְׁרֵי לֵב as “U-Le-Yish-Rey …” when the שוא beneath the למ”ד is a שוא נח, meaning that the word
is “Ul-Yish-Rey”?Why in the Kaddish de-Rabbanan, do most people say מְזוֹנֵי רְוִיחֵי when the correct wording is מְזוֹנָא רְוִיחָא?
Why do most people pronounce the first two words of the Kaddish as יִתְגַּדַּל וְיִתְקַדַּשׁ when the גר”א demonstrated that those two specific words are not Judeo-Aramaic but לשון הקדש and should thus be pronounced יִתְגַּדֵּל וְיִתְקַדֵּשׁ? (See ס’ מעשה רב.)
Why do most people say כִרְעוּתֵהּ when, as the גר”א demonstrates, the כ”ף should have a דגש? (The word should be כִּרְעוּתֵהּ. Again, see ס’ מעשה רב.)
Why do people say הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא when, as the late Professor Gerson Cohen proved in an in-depth study, the term is a hebraized version of קֻדְשָׁא בְּרִיךְ הוּא, a usage in the Targum? (קֻדְשָׁא is the nominal form, meaning that the Hebrew must be הַקֹּֽדֶשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא, which it was until centuries ago.)
Why do most people pronounce the קמ”ץ קטן like a קמ”ץ גדול? And why do most people mispronounce the קמ”ץ גדול as a פת”ח when the pronunciation “aw” traditional to the Ashkenazic and Yeminite Jews is the correct one?
And why do the Sephardim traditionally pronounce the קמ”ץ preceding a חטף קמ”ץ as a short ō, making the sound of words like צָהֳרַיִם “Tza-Ho-Ra’im”? After all, the word is the dual form of צֹֽהַר (“window,” “aperture”). Is it correct to transmute the חוֹלָם to a קמ”ץ גדול?
You see, Avi, in the life of a language, there will inevitably be changes in pronunciation as the people habituate to what they hear around them. Further, rules of grammar are intermittently forgotten or ignored, which causes the language to evolve. This is all part of how languages emerge, live, and die.
You are not the first ostensibly frum person to call out Yiddish for an aspect of human experience common to all times and climes. This often stems from an inherent dislike some post-War Jews have for the language, being the vernacular of most victims of the Holocaust נ”ע הי”ד and therefore reminiscent, they believe, of weakness and shame. I have heard otherwise intelligent students at YU make such barbs about Yiddish and this has always been disturbing.
This is pure ignorance on the part of such people. Yiddish is a beautiful language with its own rhythm and spirit, and with a labyrinthian grammar and literature that can rival any other in the world. Actually, to a child of survivors ע”ה like me, it is hurtful to read the verb “butcher,” which you chose as the headline here. As I have shown you, there are plenty of questions to be asked of various communities when it comes to the grammar and pronunciation of Hebrew and Judeo-Aramaic.
And with that, let me say that מאַמע לשון is sacred to me. When I read and speak Yiddish, I am connecting on a very deep level with my beloved parents ע”ה and with my hundreds of family members נ”ע הי”ד who were, to use your word, butchered. My heart is filled with pride and joy when I learn משניות with the Yiddish commentary of the late genius Dr. Symcha Petrushka ע”ה, which a certain very popular Modern Hebrew commentary on the Mishnah plagiarized. In my library, I have nineteen tractates of ש”ס with a Yiddish translation and commentary, including the tractates elucidated by Rabbi Dr. Yankev-Meyer Zalkind ע”ה and some others, which are hard to acquire. I especially love the Yiddish Gemaras of R’ Shelomo Drillich זצ”ל and R’ Shemuel Hibner זצ”ל. (These great rabbis were both natives of Poland. They led congregations on the Lower East Side and in Brooklyn respectively.)
זאָל אידיש נאָך לעבּן, and may we all open up our minds and hearts a little more.
We call shalosh sudas instead of sudah shlishis as the third sudah is against all 3 sudas.
People can call Yiddish “mama lashon” all they want, but there is only one mother tongue for Jews, and that is Lashon Kodesh. Yiddish is just a corrupted German, with snippets of other languages (including Hebrew) thrown in. It became popular among Jews because that’s where they mostly lived.
Ari Knobler:
No offense intended, but most of the things you mentioned,
I never heard of before, over the past 40 years.=======================================
“Yumptif” is very wrong; the correct pronunciation is Yom Tov or Yom Tob.
There is no “Peh” and no “Pheh” anywhere in Yom Tov or Yom Tob.
“Yumptif” is the pronunciation off illiterate Jews who do not read Hebrew.=======================================
If you listen to people carefully, you will eventually notice
that they pronounce difference vowels the same way,
even within the same word.If you listen to people carefully, you will eventually notice
that they pronounce the same vowels different ways,
even within the same word.“Why do most people pronounce the קמ”ץ קטן like a קמ”ץ גדול? And why do most people mispronounce the קמ”ץ גדול as a פת”ח when the pronunciation “aw” traditional to the Ashkenazic and Yeminite Jews is the correct one?
And why do the Sephardim traditionally pronounce the קמ”ץ preceding a חטף קמ”ץ as a short ō, making the sound of words like צָהֳרַיִם “Tza-Ho-Ra’im”? After all, the word is the dual form of צֹֽהַר (“window,” “aperture”). Is it correct to transmute the חוֹלָם to a קמ”ץ גדול?”
While I can’t understand your 2nd paragraph, it seems your complaint is in direct contrast to a years-long complaint of mine. You opt for the Askenaz/Yemenite version of “aw” for the ק״ג as opposed to the s’fardim who use “aw”, or similar, for the ק״ק. And yet, the ק״ק of the ספרדים makes much more sense. The ק״ק is a derivative of a חולם and hence מסתבר that it’s close to a חולם than the ק״ג. This is implied by the גר״א as well, who says a ק״ג is a hybrid of קמץ and פתח.
ותיתי לי that I adopted the ק״ק of the ספרדים. (But say “uh” for ק״ג.)“Why do most people pronounce the first two words of the Kaddish as יִתְגַּדַּל וְיִתְקַדַּשׁ when the גר”א demonstrated that those two specific words are not Judeo-Aramaic but לשון הקדש and should thus be pronounced יִתְגַּדֵּל וְיִתְקַדֵּשׁ? (See ס’ מעשה רב.)
Why do most people say כִרְעוּתֵהּ when, as the גר”א demonstrates, the כ”ף should have a דגש? (The word should be כִּרְעוּתֵהּ. Again, see ס’ מעשה רב.)”
Because there are those who are choleik on the gr”a. (I think the yaaveitz, but am not sure.)
Interestingly, the mishna berura writes like the gr”a regarding your 1st paragraph, but not the 2nd.The truth is that so called modern “Hebrew” butchers the real Hebrew much more than Yiddish. In fact, someone like myself who only began reading modern hebrew as an adult can barely swallow the utter twisted and distorted Hebrew used today even in Yeshivishe Sforim and kol shekain in more coarse usage. Very unpalatable. Just one example: it’s mostly twisted to fit the English grammar.
The easy and accurate answer is that Yiddish is Yiddish and not Hebrew.
Living languages are like that. If you a pure language, consider Latin or Sumerian (of course, arguably French and Spanish are “butchered” Latin).
Meshigas?
The Judeo-German sufffix of -im for Hebrew feminine plural nouns is assumingly a corruption of the German -en
Nishba pulled long.
In hebrew also, one must be careful how words are pronounced.
Mi chamocha baal gevuros not bal, meaning not, gevuros. hativ ki lo chalu stressed at the end, your mercy does not end, with a chaf. If stressed in the beginning, the meaning is reversed, your mercy does not start with a ches. Yidemu kaoven, with a dagesh expressing the shavo meaning silent. not yidmu the shavu silent meaning similar.@Ari K, interesting the only time you pipe up is to knock yiddish or to defend Zionism, you need to get a life/
“Why do most people pronounce the first two words of the Kaddish as יִתְגַּדַּל וְיִתְקַדַּשׁ when the גר”א demonstrated that those two specific words are not Judeo-Aramaic but לשון הקדש and should thus be pronounced יִתְגַּדֵּל וְיִתְקַדֵּשׁ? (See ס’ מעשה רב.)”
I’ve wondered about this since I heard it in a yeshivish Shul thanks for clarifying.
Avi: There was disdain on the part of SOME for the language. I believe it is in “The Middle Gate” where Joseph Patai, a Hungarian poet and scholar, wrote that as a boy, his very pious grandmother slapped him for speaking to her in “זשאַרגאָן.” Like many Hungarian Jews under Emperor Franz Joseph I, she spoke German at home. Further, the letter עי”ן has the voiced nasal sound /ng/. Few Ashkenazim observed this feature, though R’ Haskel Lookstein, who is an outstanding בעל נוסח and בעל תפילה and uses the הברה אשכנזית (or did years ago), gives the slightest hint of it when he davens נעילה (he also differentiates the חי”ת from the כ”ך, but leaves the קו”ף as is). Look up “Eighteen Treatises from the Mishna” by D. A. Sola and M. J. Raphall [1843]. This was the very first partial English translation of the Mishnah. True to the Spanish-Portuguese tradition (though Raphall was very much Ashkenazic), the שמע is transliterated “Shemang.”
That aside, as we post-Holocaust Jews will forever be engaged in a program of spiritual and intellectual reclamation, it remains one of the great tragedies of Jewish life, born of ignorance and shortsightedness, to jettison the fruits of a thousand years of East, Central, and West European Jewish culture just because we would rather turn away. It is a dismissive and quite cruel הסתר פנים to our forebears of which I want no part.
DaMoshe: That is such a presumptive thing to say to anyone whose late parents or immediate relatives spoke Yiddish. We are supposed to be רחמנים בני רחמנים.
SQUARE_ROOT: As in, “If I haven’t heard of it, it must be meritless.” As someone who has taught Yiddish as well (as Hebrew and English) for years, your “Yumptif” remark is way off. It would be “Yoƞtif.” The /m/ and /n/ are both nasal consonants, and the shift from the alveolar to the bilabial sound occurs in the colloquial speech of hundreds of languages.
spot on: The ק״ג /aw/ vowel and חולם /oʊ/ diphthong are two distinct sounds.
As I have been saying for years, מען קען זיַין מוטער נישט ליבּן אויבּ ער האַסט איר שטימע צוגליַיך.
It appears Avik isn’t asking an academic question about Yiddish. He is attacking Yiddish – in the footsteps of Mendlsohn, Graetz et al. They hated Yiddish because it represented to them several hundred years of Ashkenazi Judaism. The Holocaust theory mentioned by an earlier (otherwise very erudite) commentator is a modern, but no less hateful. adaptation of the same theme.
Wherever Jews lived, two phenomena arose. 1) they gradually adopted the local language 2) their Hebrew adapted to the phonetics of the local language. Thus Spanish Jews used to pronounce ‘ע’ as ‘ng’, so also in parts of Germany, and in the Suwalk province of Poland-Lithuania. Echoes of it are preserved today in Litvish dialects, eg ‘danga’=’dayga’ (worry).
Several dozen Jewish languages developed from the admixture of local non-Jewish languages with Hebrew/Aramaic. Some of these language have retained a strong similarity to the ‘host’ language, whilst others have become separate valid languages in their own right. No known language is ‘pure’; all contain admixtures. These are not ‘jargons’ as the haters would have it, but are today recognised as valid, separate, languages. The 18-19th century haters were ignorant of linguistics, and fueled by hatred, wrote whatever they wanted with impunity.
People tend to hold up the Yemeni dialect of Hebrew as the correct dialect. Depending on which part of Yemen, several instances of linguistic change have occurred, the most famous one being the ‘ey’ sound parallel to Litvish.
While we’re on the subject of ‘butchering’ Hebrew, let’s pause to reflect a moment on the almost-universal pronunciation of Hebrew by English speakers. If that isn’t a case of wholesale slaughter, I don’t know what is. From Rosh Yeshivos to laymen, their pronunciation is generally appalling – and they are actually trying to pray and study in that language, not pronouncing loan words adopted into (eg) Yiddish.
Please Avik, make my day and upload a video of yourself reading or davenening. I’d enjoy it, even in the nine days. For those who don’t want such mirth, it’ll serve as a sombre reminder of the churban.commonsaychel: Never in my life have I attacked Yiddish.
Please re-read my original retort to Avi. I do not subscribe to the view that some have in mistaking Yiddish for the language of the oppressed but was merely mentioning it.
As for the dialect in Suwalki: Before the War, there was a sixty-five-mile borderland between Poland and Lithuania where Suwalki is situated. In that very small geographic area, the Jews would say “oyf” rather than “uf” or “af.” It was this pronunciation upon which the artificial כּלל-אידיש is based. It is interesting that you mention Suwalki because the kehilla there was quite modern and even cosmopolitan. The Haskalah made major inroads in Suwalki as it had done in places like Lwów.
Also, דאגה is written with an אל”ף.
I don’t recall ever agreeing with Avi K before, but his point here seems valid. If you want to speak Yiddish because of its long-time use and all that, then that’s one thing. But there are real problems with Yiddish-izing lashon haKodesh, especially how yiddish tends to be largely mil’eil while Lashon haKodesh has many words that are milra.
For example, using the typical mil’eil pronunciation of Yiddish, people mispronounce words like the first word in shema after the two initial declarations, by stating viaHAVta eis instead of ViAhavTA eis.
How people speak Yiddish is not a real concern. Yes, languages can and do evolve; that’s fine. But not lashon haKodesh. G-d made that the way He wanted it. If you improperly pronounce Lashon HaKodesh when davening and laining – if that’s improperly influenced by Yiddish (or for any other reason/culture/whatever) – then that certainly is a concern.
Yiddish is not Hebrew. To those who call it a mama lashon, it’s not different than any other language which people grew up with but no longer reside where it is spoken. Whether it be Arabic, Farsi, Russian etc. Unfortunately, the reality is that Yiddish speakers tend to mispronounce Hebrew words in prayer quote often.
HaKatan: How, then, do you account for and reconcile the differences in pronunciations of Loshon Kodesh between Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Teimanim, Litvaks, Chasidim as well as some additional variations — both historical and contemporary?
Is ivrit any better?
I wrote my undergrad thesis on the origins of Yiddish.
Without getting into a linguistic discussion about creolization and the influence of older Jewish languages (specifically Loez (Old Jewish-French/Italian)) (and the fact that I don’t have easy access to any of the sources I used for that paper), in short, “ים” is a plural marker that is attached almost entirely across the board to Hebrew loan words and may be a Hebrew substrate attached to the German base of the language. It’s not necessarily a corrpution of -en in German.
That aside, as many have pointed out here, living languages change. That’s how you ended up with 26 dialects of Yiddish and my very Litvish grandmother OBM not understanding her friend’s Yiddish that was from a different region (IIRC somewhere in Austria/Hungary, i.e, not especially mutually intelligble).
And, as others have pointed out, as long as it doesn’t affect how you read Hebrew when davening / leining (which is completely different and should remain that way), does it really matter that much?
The problem is as I stated above that the mispronounciation changes the meaning sometimes saying something not nice to Hashem Yisborach.
Reminds me of a story. A big chasidic Rabbi from Poland came to the US post holocaust and went to Dean Sar for a position in RIETS. He confided to Sar that he wasnt sure if the American bachurim would understand his English. Sar told him איך האב מורא אז אייער אידיש וועלען זיי אויך נישט פארשטיין. Heard from the Rebbe himself. He had a shtibel on Miller Avenue you know where and then Boro Park. He sat oveynun in Satmar on 53rd St.
ZSK, I have always found the evolution of dialects fascinating, particularly that of the Yiddish language. As you seem knowledgeable about the Yiddish language, perhaps you can answer me a question I’ve always had regarding the dialect of Yiddish speaking Galician and Hungarian Jews. This dialect has been adopted by current Chassidishe Yiddish speakers worldwide (with the exception of some Chassidishe Yiddish speakers in Israel). We Hungarian Yiddish speakers (and also Galician) pronounce the Yiddish vowels “ah” as “oo” and we pronounce the “uh” and “oo” sounds as “ee”. And interestingly enough, this pronunciation is also when we speak Loshen Kodesh. We are the only Jews pronouncing the קמץ as “oo” instead of “ah” and שורוק as “ee” instead of “uh”. I was always puzzled by this. Do you how this dialect evolution happened?
Avi
Even before the Holocaust, there was a disdain for Yiddish. It was called Jargon.
Not sure why this is news. Sure anti senites exist. Mazel tov
This may be the one time I will ever agree with HaKatan on anything, ever. His example is correct, and reading Hebrew incorrectly when Leining / Davening / making a bracha is absolutely a problem. Certainly it can put the fulfillment of a chiyyuv into question (why do you think the Gemara made its statements about the ability to differentiate between Aleph and Ayin?).
Lashon Hakodesh does have phonological rules. Those rules exist regardless of whether the phonology of letters were affected by Galus by way of surrounding existing languages (i.e. vowel shifts in Yiddish), or in one case blatantly ignoring those rules b’shitta because of Maskilim. I have at least 3 sefarim that spell out those rules very clearly.
“spot on: The ק״ג /aw/ vowel and חולם /oʊ/ diphthong are two distinct sounds.”
Naturally. And aw is closer to a cholam than uh. And uh is closer to a patach than aw.
@Ari Knobler
My paternal side left Suwalki for the USA in 1872 but I remember my great grandfather using that pronunciation.
…………….
As for Yiddish being jargon, that is a polite word.
My Oma (maternal side came from Germany in 1868) called it a ‘gutter tongue’
……………..
When I was in high school 54 years ago Yiddish was offered as one of 12 foreign languages. I signed up and took the first week of classes.
Zaidah asked me what I learned and I gave a few examples.
He said, your teacher is a Galitzianer, drop the class.The evolution of the havarah is related somewhat to the local languages spoken in different areas. Languages spoken has different accents and inflections. It’s not a Chassidishe issue as @Reb Eliezer would probably confirm that his Rabbeim the Rabbonim of Mattersdorf who weren’t at all chassidish yet had a very distinct Hungarian havarah.
Bottom line, we can read Melech Shlomo, but might not understand him if meeting in person… Of course, everyone thinks he will because he surely speaks the genuine version of loshon kodesh …
And, also, how is Eliahu communicating with tzadikim – does he speak a different loshon with each of them?
On a more pragmatic note – is there research in how old Hebrew sounded? I heard simulations of old English … A simple thought would be that a version that differentiates between more sounds is more likely to be genuine, such as Teimani ayn, and patach/kamatz, but I am sure linguists have more to say.
@AAQ, the Eliyahu question isn’t a question, because he only ever came to my rebba. The stories about other rebbas are made up
ujm:
The chassidim intentionally corrupted the proper pronunciation as a counter-force to the maskilim. Presumably, this was an “eis laAsos”-type decision by their esteemed leaders. Unfortunately, they have not switched back, even though those maskilim (and their danger) are gone.As mentioned, with the added exception of those whose havara is corrupted by yiddish (or by a real language), everyone does milEil/milRa the same way, as it should be done, if I am not mistaken.
Regarding the other differences, like many sefardim pronouncing kamatz as patach, it is interesting to note that Persians, who have a common “kamatz” sound in their secular language (Persian), do distinguish between kamatz and patach. So, it is obviously a cultural (i.e., Arabic language) influence that corrupted the general sefardic havara to lose the distinction between kamatz and patach (and the same idea by Ashkenazim who do not distinguish between alef and ayin).
Teimanim have the most number of distinct letter sounds of all, including our English “th” sound – which makes sense as their mesorah was intact from after Bayis Rishon until the Zionists viciously shmaded them – but they also seem to be influenced by their native culture in their not distinguishing between kamatz/patach, if I am not mistaken.
But, again, the point is that Lashon HaKodesh absolutely does not evolve, as G-d made that exactly as He wanted.
ZSK: It seems to me that you missed my point. I was pointing out that their are significant differences in pronunciations of Loshon Kodesh between Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Teimanim, Litvaks, Chasidim as well as some additional variations.
Are you arguing that some of those are incorrect and/or that
between the varying pronunciations of Loshon Kodesh between Ashkenazim, Sefardim, Teimanim, Litvaks, Chasidim, etc. only one is correct and the rest improper and problematic for use in Tefila?And why is their a lack of concern regarding how Ivrit (Modern Hebrew) has butchered Loshon Kodesh; and that Ivrit speakers carry over their incorrect/problematic pronunciations when davening?
@philospher
It’s more than likely due to vowel shifts (which do occur – English went through a major one in the 1400-1700s; Yiddish did something similar but collapsed vowels into each other) and the effect of Umlaut (I can’t link the Wikipedia article here per forum rules), and the simple fact that Yiddish’s Hebrew component is large enough and used on a daily basis for those changes to be able leak straight into davening, leining, etc. (the Halachik issues are irrelevant to this discussion, but they most certainly exist.)
As for Chassidim worldwide using Hebrew heavily influenced by Hungarian/Southeastern/Transcarpathian Yiddish, I believe that is due to cultural factors, specifically the Holocaust, which drove the various branches of Chassidim together and everyone more or less adopted the Satmar/Vitzhnitz pronunciation because they were dominant.
In terms of the linguistics, you’re talking about an isogloss (a linguistic border that delineates between dialects, languages or specific features). I don’t have an accurate map (Google doesn’t have one either), but there is one that runs roughly through southern Poland, Hungary and into Ukraine, which would partially explain it.
I will point out that Chabad – which is technically a Chassidish branch (let’s please not get into a discussion of that) has for the most part maintained its Northeastern Yiddish flavor (saying “tejrah” rather than “toirah” or ever “torah”) outside of Israel (Israel is a different story, like it is with all things).
I can look into it more, but I don’t live near an academic library (I live in northern Israel and the relevant academic library is in Ramat Gan).
I got your point. I was being intentionally brief.
I’ll clarify:
1) There are linguistic rules to LHK – phonological, morphological and syntactic. They exist whether or not reading/pronunciation changed due to surrounding languages. The most basic rules can pretty much be derived from any other Semitic langauge that was wasn’t essentially a liturgical language for nearly 1900 years (which is what Hebrew for the most part was, from Churban Bayis Sheni until Ben-Eliezer).
2) Teimanim (especially Baladi) appear to have the most uncorrupted reading tradition (mainly due to their relative isolation). If we want a vague idea of what LKH is supposed to sound like, look at the Baladim. Speaking of Teimanim in general, HaKatan is 100% wrong about shmad – Teimanim and Sephardim absolutely use the “th” sounds in davening and leining (anyone who has davened at a Sephardic shul or learned in a predominantly Sephardic Hesder Yeshiva (like I have) would know this – Sephardim are far more precise with pronunciation in their leining and davening than Ashkenazim are and they make a point of being so (the exception to Ashkenazim being less precise is obviously those whose tradition is נוסח אשכנז מובהק).
3) The varying pronunciations all have errors and that’s because a variety of cultural factors, time + מנהג אבותינו בידינו (sociolinguistic factors). For Teimanim, it’s ג being read as /j/; for Chassidim, pretty much everything, but especially vowels (there is at least one Chassidish Rebbe (IIRC Vizhnitz), who said he’s never heard a 100% kosher Torah reading in his life); for Litvaks, it’s cholam, as it is for Galitzianers. Ashkenazim don’t differentiate between א and ע, ח and כ, ט and ת, which they should. For Sephardim in general, their vowels are from Arabic, not Hebrew.
4) Incorrectly reading words is a problem על פי הלכה and we know this. Again, I refer to מסכת ברכות and statements about not allowing those who cannot differentiate between א and ע to serve as a שליח ציבור.
5) We have our traditions and they aren’t going away and I never said only one tradition is correct. The differences (acutally errors) in pronucnciation obviously aren’t going anywhere. But that does not change the fact that there are linguistic rules and they should be followed (and those who בשיטה don’t should obviously go back to reading correctly).
6) I never addressed Modern Hebrew. I tend to follow the opinion of Rav Kook זצ״ל that Modern Hebrew is 100% פסול insofar as fulfilling a חיוב and that Ashkenazim should be reading per Ashkenazi tradition only (and the other traditions per their Mesorah only as well, obviously). Which is why, despite having lived in Israel for 15 years (and B”H having very good Hebrew), I still daven and lein in the Ashkenazi tradition I grew up with. But I’m a distinct minority.
7) My last statement was directed at the OP, not you, asking why he cares what Yiddish does with regard to its Hebrew component. Yiddish isn’t a Semitic language, so there is no butchering of Hebrew to be done.
The Chasam Sofer questioned how the Polish pronounce Hashem’s name Ado-no instead of noy. The stress should be at the end as ruled by the Nodah Beyehudah.
Pronunciation doesn’t matter as long as it is constant. The litwishw pronounce the cholem as ei the chasidishe as ay and some as aw.
@Hakatan those maskilim (and their danger) are gone
Far from it. Your philosophy, for example, is a clear-cut example of 20th C Haskalah.
@ZSK Chassidim worldwide using Hebrew heavily influenced by Hungarian/Southeastern/Transcarpathian Yiddish, I believe that is due to cultural factors, specifically the Holocaust, which drove the various branches of Chassidim together and everyone more or less adopted the Satmar/Vitzhnitz pronunciation because they were dominant.??!! (i) Perhaps because the populations of traditional Chasidic homelands were destroyed and the dialects lost, whereas 50% of Hungarian Jewry survived? (ii) Szatmar and Vizhnitz pronunciations are worlds apart. (iii) Off the top of my head, the Ashkenazi vowel shift u>ü>i started long before Chasidism, and – again, as I recall from several decades ago – is first recorded in Western Poland. (iv) What you refer to as Hungarian is only Western Hungarian, a population that predominantly derives from Galicia, but also includes some from Ukraine. (v) Polish/Ukrainian pronunciation is only similar is only similar in their treatment of kometz. The Ukrainian treatment of tsere is more like (but not identical to) Northern/Litvish – so 2 isoglosses.
HaKatan: לשון הקדש absolutely DID evolve. This is one of my areas of knowledge, having written a master’s thesis on the way the various Targumim render the poetic portions of the Tanakh and having taught BH on the university level for years. (Now, I do secondary ed consulting, for the most part, but this was one of my fields.) The oldest portions of the Tanakh (e.g. שירת למך in Genesis 4; Genesis, 49; שירת הים in Exodus 15; שירת דבורה in Judges 5; Psalms 18, 29, 68, et al.) are examples of Archaic Hebrew, which differs from pre-exilic and post-exilic Hebrew. (We are not talking about Rabbinic Hebrew, which is something else.) Aside from the Judeo-Aramaic portions of Ezra, the Hebrew there is quite modern, forming a sort of nexus between the biblical and post-biblical varieties of the language.
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