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As we enter the three weeks, let’s reflect on what we are mourning about. Take some time and think, “Why do I want Moshiach to come?”
We all want Moshiach to come. Some more some less (at least I hope!). We all ave various reasons. And there really is only one reason. And if all of Klal Yisroel really wants Moshiach to come FOR THE REAL REASON, there is no doubt that he will come immediately!
SiDI™qq
So that we can live our lives FULLY the way Hashem truly wants us to in E”Y, with no worries about the Goyim, or where our parnassah is coming from, or how Jews will get along with each other.
Because it’s a Mitzvah to.
I want to see my parents again.
(We do get techias hameisim with Moshiach, don’t we?)
haifagirl,
it’s a machlokes
the reason I want Moshiach to come is b/c I feel the world is upside down, and the reason for that is Hashem’s hester panim.
Haifagirl: Machlokes Rishonim.
So all the pains so many are experiencing r”l will come to an end…and so our enemies will finally Alize they were wrong all along!
Same as coffee addict, I want Moshiach because the world is upside down and I am finding the nisyonos to be painful and exhausting. I also desperately would like to see my parents and sisters again. My strongest desire for Moshiach, however, is my burning desire to raise my kids without the pull of the yetzer hora. I would love to spare them the pitfalls and pain of falling prey, and would love to see them love Hashem and His Torah with all their being. I know it sounds corny/cliche, I would never have imagined myself to think/feel that way, but I have really come to feel this way over the long bumpy years.
Oh, and thanks for asking. It’s good to remind ourselves where we are holding.
Kibbutz galuyos
Beis Hamikdash
Kol hamatmanin metzuyim k’afar.
Those are the things everyone agrees will happen when Mashiach comes. I think that’s plenty without conflating it with techiyas hamesim or ignoring Shmuel.
I used to think like many posters here that we want Moshiach to come for many of these reasons.
A few years ago I heard Reb Matisyahu at a tisha b’av event where he said that the main reason we should daven for moshiach is not so WE can have an easier or better life or that WE can have or live thru techiyas hameisim etc. Hakadosh Baruch Hu is in galus. He has no bais hamikdash or korbanos. We should daven for Him, so that the shechina should have a home and be able to come out of galus! This should be the focus of our tefillos. Daven for our Father in heaven, not for ourselves.
What a beautiful thought! How emesdig.
So I don’t have to work
Of course the reason is to have our Bais Hamikdosh and bring karbonos and come close to Hashem. Then we can bring about the greatest Kiddush Hashem and bring the shechina out of galus.
But I can’t help thinking will Mashiach tzidkeinu be black hat or srugie or turban? Will he wear tefillin on chol hamoed or not. tzitzis 1 hole or 2? Sefardi or Ashkenazi? If Ashkenaz, nusach sefard or nusach ashkenaz?…
mz: Mashiach will look exactly like you. 😉
here’s a curveball…maybe some people don’t want mashiach to come (yet). what would you say to them?
OF COURSE we want moshiach to come!! Why wouldn’t me – who by the mid 20’s hasn’t felt suffering, stress, pain, loss of a loved one… and today?? who hasn’t felt the pain of lieby kleitzy, the suffering in israel, mumbai attack…. the list can go on and on and on… we would be crazy not to want moshiach.
And yes we want to be closer to Hashem but I think mainly what people think of when they say they want moshiach is for all the suffering to end…
musser zoger – “and bring the shechina out of galus” – so you are going to help the shechinah?
pcoz: That question could be asked about prayer and korbanos too. The same answer applies.
Pray tell, which prayers?
coffee addict – rlly?? so that means mashiach might just be for those who are alive at the time? what about everyone else??
pcoz- There is a story about a polish ?? ???? who was a successful farmer… one day he asked his Rebbe “Why do we need Moshiach? I am so happy, settled here, with a family and a farm – why do i need Jerusalem?”
The Rebbe said: “The Cossacks are on their way here. Daven for Moshiach and we will all be transfered to Jerusalem!!!”
THe farmer answered: “No rebbe – let Moshiach come and take the Cossacks to Jerusalem!!!”
Of course, there is the “other” approach, that Moshiach doesn’s just “come” and solve all our problems. Instead, Yemos Hamoshiach /Acharos Hayamim will come to be only when we have fulfilled our mission as Jews – to be an or lagoyim and bring all the people of the world to a realization of their task to live as Human Beings in accordance with God’s Will. Moshiach does not “come” and magically transform the world; the world will enter a state of yemos hamoshiach when we have done our job as mamleches kohanim v’goy kadosh, when we have fully realized our potential as an am segulah.
We should not look to moshiach to solve our problems. How many times throughout our history have Jews been destroyed physically and spiritually because they looked to a person who seemed to be moshaich as the answer to their problems? Instead, we must solve our own problems, work through our challenges, improve ourselves and by example the world around us. If we do that we might merit to witness the day when we have successfully been “misaken olam b’malchus Shadai, v’chol binei basar yikra’u bishmecha.”
Just look at and really think about the paragraph in the Amida for Yomim Noraim beginning “U’vechein tein pachticha”; that says it all.
But I can’t help thinking will
Mashiach tzidkeinu be black hat or srugie or turban? Will he wear tefillin on chol hamoed or not. tzitzis 1 hole or 2? Sefardi or Ashkenazi? If Ashkenaz, nusach sefard or nusach ashkenaz?…
Great point! It makes no difference. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. These slight variations you mentioned should not even register in our minds. Some people make whole issues out of things like this (just ask any shadchan…) but that is so wrong.
here’s a curveball…maybe some people don’t want mashiach to
come (yet). what would you say to
them?
I would say the following to them:
Take a look at kinnah 25 of shacharis on tisha b’ av that begins ?? ??? ???. This is the first kinah recited on Tisha b’av that is apparently unrelated to the churban. It mourns the calamities that befell the communities of the Rhineland in 1096 during the first crusade. It is ironic that the crusaders were willing to leave their homes, occupations and families behind to conquer the Holy Land while the Jews there had no such zeal to regain their homeland.
The Jews there were exiles who made their way to Germany following the destruction of the first bais hamikdash. After 70 years, many Jews returned from Babylon but none returned from Worms. The community in Jerusalem wrote to them urging them to return but they responded ‘ You stay where you are in the great Jerusalem, and we will continue to stay where we are in our little Jerusalem!’
This is why the terrible decree was issued in shamayim against the Jewish people, and especially against the Jews of Worms and her neighbouring communities.
SayIDidIt – “our Father in Shomayim is suffering.” – this is pure apikorsus
RSRH, I appreciate your point about not having things done for us but why do we say 3 times every single day Ki Lishuascha Kivinu Kal Hayom if we don’t hope he’ll come right away, and what about the Maamar Razal in Sanhedrin “Zachu Achishena…”? What is this “other” approach?
RSRH: Of course, there is the “other” approach,
If thats the case I think I throw up my hands n give up now… nothing but a miracle will change this world…
In ???”? ????? ????? ????? ?
the rambam says there is no chisaron shayach to Hashem. Tzar is from chisaron.
So how do you understand “Bichol Tzorosom Lo Tzor” Yeshayahu and “Schinta Bigalusa” Zohar? Did you read there in Rambam 1,9 and 1,12? It says that though its not taken literally, it means something just we can’t comprehend its true meaning.
Vechi mah inyan shemittah etzel har sinai? This means that Hashem empathizes with us kaveyachol, to say that we daven for Hashem chas veshalom that He should not experience the tzar he has from empathizing with us through our redemption is just Polish and the wrong way round.
mmmm thats not all you said… and “polish” is definitely not apikorsus. be careful when you use that term and as SIDI said bring a source.
In Tzavaas Harivash (Baal Shem Tov) it says “Tzarich Liracheim al Hashchina” and more.
And nobody said anything about praying that way, just doing things in order to take the Shchina out of golus.
The ??? ???? writes in ???? ?? a fascinating thing. If you look through history, just before every period of ????, the ??? ????? were living peacefully and just TOO comfortably. Then came the blow. He warns ‘When people think that Berlin is ???????, that’s what will start off another mass murder…’
A ??? is better than a ????. He foresaw the tradegy of the Holocaust and the atrocities of the Nazis ??”? – because jews think that Berlin is Yerushalayim. How many of us are too comfortable for comfort???
Pcoz: I don’t think it’s a big deal. She just left out the word “Kav’yachol”. There’s an inherent Kav’yachol implied (I hope) whenever we talk about Hashem and just about any human feeling or emotion or anything so I don’t think it was Apikorsus. That being said, we should be more careful about how we speak and such.
SiDi: RSRH is just quoting the Rambam that Yemos Hamashiach won’t be anything different from how the world is right now, with the only exception that the Jewish people will be sovereign on themselves and not ruled by anyone else. He Paskens like Shmuel in the Gemara. “Ein Bein Olam Hazeh L’yemos Hamashiach Ela Shib’ud Malchuyos Bilvad.”
Kozov: I cannot answer for or say anything against the Ba’al Shem Tov, but much of Chassidish thought is probably Apikorsus according to the Rambam (mostly from Yesodei Hatorah, certainly if you read the Moreh). Which is fine. They have their Gedolei Haposkim and the Rambam’s Shittah in regards to Kabbalah has certainly not been accepted. But quoting a Ba’al Shem Tov to someone who is quoting Apikorsus according to the Rambam won’t get you anywhere. They’re two entirely different planes of discussion.
Nobody REALLY wants Mashiach to come. The coming of Mashiach would turn our lives upside down and nobody really wants that. We want ymos hamashiach to be just like it is now, except with korbanos, etc. To live with HaShem as an objective reality in our lives is too much for us to handle. That’s why Mashiach has not come yet.
We don’t really know why we want the Ge’ula. Because we don’t understand the pain of Hashem, and we have no Na’avi to describe it. We have no Na’avi to tell us and explain why we sometimes feel inadequate and lost. That itself, that feelng of ‘not knowing’, not knowing just how harmful Golus is, how each day in exile is worse than the next in a PERSONAL way, and not understanding the tzar of HKB”H is going through.
That itself is a reason to want Moshiach.
For clarity.
To understand what’s really going on around us, and to stop living blindly like everything is fine.
Because everthing is NOT fine.
BaalHabooze: This time I’ll protest before pcoz gets to it. Hashem doesn’t feel pain.
So what was Moshe telling Hashem when he said “lamah Hashem yechereh apcha biamech”? And who was he talking to?
Kozov: Read the Moreh Nevuchim. He addresses every instance where it seems that Hashem has feelings or physical attributes.
pcoz: You are clearly familiar with the yesodos hadat (finally, someone who is) so I think you’re aware of the question “what do our prayers confer upon God?” or couched differently “why do we say baruch ata” or yet differently “what does God want from our korbanos”. The concept of “shechinta b’galusa” has an explanation similar to the sefer charedim’s answer to the prayer question: It is proper for us to relate to God as if He is in Galus and by working towards Geula we kevayachol bring Him back.
Sam2:
much of Chassidish thought is probably Apikorsus according to the Rambam (mostly from Yesodei Hatorah, certainly if you read the Moreh). Which is fine.
Which is not fine. The rebbe of a very large segment of observant Jewry founded his movement on teachings that a rishon considered apikorsus, minus and kefira respectively (hilchos teshuva 3:18). Just so happens that this same rishon is the one who defined the “creed” of what Jews have to believe in, albeit in the middle of nowhere in perush hamishnayos. That creed was accepted universally and if you read the 13 ikkarim, you will find several things apparently contradicted by chassidus. It’s been an elephant in the room for centuries and it is at least as important to “farenfer” as any shverer Rashi in Hamocher es hasfina.
Sam first of all RSRH does not seem to be saying what you said, he brings a requirement i never heard of. In fact the rambam himself actually says about king moshiach the exact opposite of what RSRH describes later, “viyachof kal yisroel leileich ba ulichazeik bidkah” and second of all, to your point, the Rambam writes about Tchiyas Hameisim in his 13 ikrim, which is bitul minhago shel olam, so its not so simple that he says the entirety of the Geula will be a natural process. And definitely olam haba afterwards is miraculous, we cant even imagine it and thats also lishitas harambam. In fact it seems RSRH might agree with that, he just says that’s not right away, not even shibud malchiyus. That is what I challenged him for. His point that not everything will neccessarily be so easy right may be true, but it doesn’t have to be that way, even according to the Rambam. Like he writes in Iggeres Tchiyas Hameisim that what he explained elsewhere that the prophecies of moshiach like the wolf living with the lamb are just a mashla, it is not definitive that it will be that way.
Kozov: I do not see the contradiction between his words and your quote of the Rambam. That was his point. Nothing will necessarily be easier. Maybe it will be. Hopefully so. But his point was that you can’t rely upon that. Also, you apparently read the Iggeres on T’chiyas Hameisim. So you know that the Rambam very much limits it.
“Moshiach doesn’t just “come” and solve all our problems.”
There were no maybes there.
In any case, to add to this thread, let me quote from the end of the Rambam:
The Sages and the prophets did not yearn for the Messianic era in order to have dominion over the entire world, to rule over the gentiles, to be exalted by the nations, or to eat, drink, and celebrate. Rather, they desired to be free to involve themselves in Torah and wisdom without any pressures or disturbances, so that they would merit the world to come, as explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.
Kozov: He did say that it’s another approach, not that what he said was guaranteed.
You’re right, he didn’t say so straight out. But he implied that according to the approach he brought gufa it is guaranteed.
“much of Chassidish thought is probably Apikorsus according to the Rambam (mostly from Yesodei Hatorah, certainly if you read the Moreh)”
Please elaborate.
Kozov: I apologize. I have no interest in writing an entire treatise on Chassidus and the Moreh Nevuchim here. (I’m sure there are plenty of such treatises on the internet. See what Google can find you. I haven’t searched so I don’t know what’s reliable, but you seem smart enough to figure out what’s reliable in this by yourself.)
Itche: I meant that it’s fine nowadays. I have no idea how it started or what caused it to be accepted, but Chassidus has been accepted as not being Apikorsus by the vast majority of Jews now. Thus, it’s clear that we don’t quite Pasken like the Rambam in every detail here. Or, at the very least, we accept that Chassidus has enough to rely on even against the Rambam.
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