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TLIK: The fact is that numerous tzadikim have given very specific reasons for tragedies, including the holocaust. The Gemorah often does the same. You say that only someone who possesses Ruach Hakodesh can do so. And very likely these tzadikim do posses that. But you then go on to say, contradicting that previous point, that mere mortals cannot make such cheshbonos. Yet these great tzadikim I refer to, while they posses Ruach Hakodesh, are indeed mere mortals! Perhaps you are speaking metaphorically in differentiating between those with R”HK and other “mere” mortals.
There are valid sources for “Jewcentricity”, iow, that all world events are tied to us, or to get our attention. Like tzora’as that starts distant and then strikes closer and closer until the spiritual malady is corrected. So there was the Asian Tsunami, Africa’s torment, the crisis in Japan, Katrina, Irene, and now Sandy. One need not be a kofer, ba’al gaava, or plain idiot to recognize that there are severe spiritual maladies among us, and among our neighbors. The Talmud has the concept of androlumusia, and other equal op disasters for specific shortcomings.
Sandy was caused by gays and the internet. A better reason- it’s because of gays that USE THE INTERNET!
Our Gedolim of previous generations have already told us why every type of tragedy occurs. Storms and floods dont happen necessarily for the same reasons as sickness or plagues or earthquakes….
Todays gedolim are only saying that the things found in those sefarim apply to us today because we are doing those aveiros.
I do not have ruach hakodesh, and can’t know for certain, but to me – IMHO – it seems obvious that the lesson (at least one of them) is we are too connected to our gashmius (I also struggle with this and all the things I want or feel I NEED to buy). I’m surprised I haven’t seen more pple talking about this. Here, Hash-m sends this crazy storm “close to home” so klal yisroel should really feel it – which ruins the gashmius (homes and therefore people’s “stuff”, cars, businesses etc) of so many people and in an area with a concentration of yidden. So while this is only my theory perhaps either 1) we are supposed to be getting a mussar about “stop being so into gashmius” and all the stuff (I also) want to have.
OR (more likely in my opinion – hopefully ->) 2) Hash-m is trying to teach us the hard way that we need to let go of our connection to all our stuff as a means of getting us ready for Mashiach who be”H is very close (that’s not me, gedolim and the Chofetz Chaim in dreams says that will be very soon be”H we should be zocheh….) to bringing us to a state of the world that will be kulo ruchniyus…
Whatever the reason for the hurricane, I would like to see the Rabbanim get up and make a push for Teshuva and to stop the Pritzus, talking in shul and what not. Time to go back to the old days when the Rabbi was boss of his Shul and peopled listened when he said something. I would love to see a crackdown.
What happened to the days when people made their own cheshbon hanefesh and worked on themselves and their shortcomings. Now, it seems that every shnuk with a pen or a keyboard is an expert in everyone elses shortcomings and has no problem opining why things happen on a personal or communal level.
I will give another shot at explaining what I said. To say you know the cause for Hurricane Sandy or any other specific event is tantamount to saying , “I know the cheshbonos of HKB”H.” If you have Ruach Hakodesh, I am happy for you, and for us that we are privileged to have you in our generation. If not, you have the problems I mentioned earlier – either kefira, gaava, or intellectual challenge. However, there is nothing wrong with identifying areas in which we should invest in tikkun. For that, we are told ????? ??????, and we must do that individually. A gadol is empowered to guide the generation in areas in which such tikkun is needed. This does not suppose what the Divine cheshbonos were, just that the message of what to do is such and such. Yes, there were gedolim who had a sixth sense, and were able to identify a snippet of the cheshbonos of HKB”H. These were not average people, and much of what they did was in a sphere that we struggle to comprehend.
We need to take these tragedies as messages, whether individually, or collectively as a klal. But the statements of precisely what HKB”H was calculating are way beyond the reach of us. And, yes, these could be Ruach Hakodesh, but are otherwise either kefira, gaava, or stupidity.
The little I know:
You still did not answer my question. You said:
Anyone who tells me the precise cause for Sandy is either a kofer, a ball gaava, or a plain idiot.
I gave a cause above. Now please tell me which category I fall into according to you. Am I a kofer, a ba’al ga’avah or a plain idiot?
I await your response. If you fail to respond, I will take it to mean that you don’t really mean what you said, since you aren’t willing to back it up.
The Wolf
Whatever the reason for the hurricane, I would like to see the Rabbanim get up and make a push for Teshuva and to stop the Pritzus, talking in shul and what not. Time to go back to the old days when the Rabbi was boss of his Shul and peopled listened when he said something. I would love to see a crackdown.
those times never existed, From the Haskallah to the reform and general secular jews. Rabannim havent really been in charge in a real long time
Wolf,
Your response was *how* Hurricane Sandy happened, not *why*.
You did not respond to the OP’s question.
Coming from the perspective that people in glass houses should not throw stones – Without debating the reason for any individual event – anyone who feels that any event that happens is due to behavioral shortcomings, should very carefully and very deeply do a self-analysis and address his/her own issues. I do not believe that telling other people how to behave is at all effective, although it is significantly more fun than changing one’s own behavior.
As far as hocheiach tochiach – I don’t think I have the right to tell you to not rob a bank as i’m walking in to the grocery store to steal a sandwich.
Your response was *how* Hurricane Sandy happened, not *why*.
Whether I answered the OP or not is irrelevant. My latest question was addressed to “The little I know,” who made a definitive statement. My question is posed to him(?), not the OP. He(?) said that anyone who can state a cause for the hurricane is a kofer, ba’al ga’avah or a plain idiot. I gave a cause and I’m asking him(?) which category I now belong to.
The Wolf
should we BOTHER? let HaShem be you should be just fine all of you worried children
JustHappence_I am allergic to corn…
I’ll ask again the question everyone ignores, perhaps because there is no answer.
Why didn’t any of those tzaddikim whose ruach hakodesh allowed them to divine with crystal clarity the cause of the Holocaust use that same ruach hakodesh to divine the coming of the Holocaust and warn the Jews to get out instead of, as many did, telling them to stay?
Amar Rabbi Binyamin Bar Yefes, Hakol bichezkas suma…..
R. Yaakov Salomon agrees with Whiteberry, do some introspection and see how you can do Teshuva.
Wolf, why don’t you look into the mirror and decide????
lesschumras
I don’t think this is the right thread for it but let me try.
I think I actually once answered you on this particular question.
Let me try again.
There are two answers.
1)There were Tzadikim years before the churban saying (as we know now) “ofene nevua” – explicit, crystal-clear prophesy foretelling of the future doom and destruction about to visit Klal Yisroel. (I think Meshech Chochma, Reb Elchonon, many Chasidishe Rebbes.) They spoke openly. They saw the future as if in a book. And they spoke about it. Why they didn’t explicitly direct the masses to America? Again, good question. And the good answer is, that America in those days was (and was most certainly viewed as) a complete spiritual Holocaust. So, as in the times of old, they chose to stay (and die) as Yidden rather then to give up Yiddishkeit. Take a look for yourself. I myself don’t know numbers. But I’m told that this place was FLOODED with Yidden back then. In all of the forty-nine states of good old America. EVERYWHERE. Where are their children? I have chance of vising the “borsch belt”. Almost every second elderly person I meet is a YID. Right. Not a practicing one. Certainly not their children. I’m sure you’ve heard of the “taleisim and tefilin thrown overboard in the east river”. Yes, whoever wasn’t completely prepared, and ready to swim against the tide completely assimilated. So the Baalie Ruach HaKodesh were most certainly justified for not directing and sending their flock to total spiritual oblivion.
2)For others (for whatever HaShem’s reasoning), even real true baalei Ruach Hakodesh, HaShem chose to remove their power. ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????, that was real. We find that true Tzadikim couldn’t even help themselves, they “felt” the “hester panim”, the disappearance of the closeness and attachment to HaShem. Rabbi Miller ??”? says that was ??? ???? ??? for ridiculing and disparaging Gedolim. So HaShem says “You can do without them? Let’s see.” Those are his words, or something to that effect.
Less chumras,
Do you believe there is a reason for either event?
Do you believe that there is a message, regardless of who was or was not directly affected?
Wolf,
Regardless as to why you may be a kofer, the little I know made his/ her statement regarding someone who said they have a definitive reason why the hurricane occurred, which you did not. You said how it happened, not why. It is left to you to explain why you are a kofer, which you seem to be asserting.
Mods -My post above please.
dolphina -“Coming from the perspective that people in glass houses should not throw stones – Without debating the reason for any individual event – anyone who feels that any event that happens is due to behavioral shortcomings, should very carefully and very deeply do a self-analysis and address his/her own issues. I do not believe that telling other people how to behave is at all effective, although it is significantly more fun than changing one’s own behavior.”
Yes, we all have to work on ourselves, but sometimes we don’t realize what we are doing is wrong. For example, a lot of people went to vote for Corzine in NJ, but the Gedolim in EY said they should vote for Christie because he is Anti-Toeiva. Some people don’t realize voting for a candidate who is pro-Toeiva is a bad thing.
Regardless as to why you may be a kofer,
I did not say that. In fact, I’ve been careful not to say such things since I said I would no longer do so. Are you again putting words in my mouth, or are you calling me a kofer?
You said how it happened, not why.
I did say why. I’ll even highlight the pertinent part:
Hurricane Sandy came because HKBH chose to manipulate atmospheric and oceanic conditions, causing the confluence of weather events which led to Hurricane Sandy making landfall in New Jersey.
The “why” is because HKBH wanted it. That’s not a “how.” The rest of my statement could be said to be a “how,” but that portion is clearly a “why.”
It is left to you to explain why you are a kofer, which you seem to be asserting.
I asserted no such thing. The poster stated that a person who says something must belong to one of three categories. I merely asked him which I belonged to now that I made that statement. I asked a question. I did not make an assertion. At no point did I say “I must be a kofer because I believe the hurricane happened for reason X.”
You are *again* putting words in my mouth — something you have done in the past, something which I’ve repeatedly asked you to stop doing, and for some perverse reason, you seem to continually do.
The Wolf
Wolf,
Bolding the words does not change that it was not the reason *why* HKB”H sent the hurricane, rather *how* he sent it.
And I apologize about the kofer, to be accurate you said ” Am I a kofer, a ba’al ga’avah or a plain idiot”.
Yes.
Nisht
I believe Hashem had valid reasons for both. I believe Gedolim can use these events to inspire people to do tshuva. I also believe that since the end of the first Galus ruach hakodesh and nivius ended.
i had no patience to read the responses but they seemed very sophisticated and thought out
Bolding the words does not change that it was not the reason *why* HKB”H sent the hurricane, rather *how* he sent it.
You’re obviously missing this. Let’s try this one more time.
The little I know said the following:
Anyone who tells me the precise cause for Sandy is either a kofer, a ball gaava, or a plain idiot.
Please note that he did not say “anyone who gives the reason HaShem brought Hurricane Sandy.” He said “the precise cause for Sandy.” IME, the precise cause for Sandy was HKBH’s choosing to send Sandy.
Are there reasons He decided to send Sandy? Certainly — and I wouldn’t dare to speculate as to what they are. But that’s a *separate question* then the question of the cause for Sandy.
TLIK said that anyone who gives a cause (not the reason why the hurricane came, but the cause) is a kofer, a ba’al ga’avah or a plain idiot. I gave a cause — HKBH’s will was the cause for the storm.
And I apologize about the kofer, to be accurate you said ” Am I a kofer, a ba’al ga’avah or a plain idiot”.
Apology accepted.
To The Little I Know: I still await your response to my query. Your silence on the matter says to me that you don’t really believe what you said.
The Wolf
Wolf and nishtdayngesheft:
For goodness sake stop arguing about the semantics.
‘Why’ it happened can equally refer either to its natural cause or to Hashem’s reason for making this happen. We are privy to the former and not the latter.
End of discussion.
Surely(?)
Zeeskite
Thanks for responding. To your first point, it just illustrates my point in that their lack of ruach hakodesh and foresight created the Catch 22 situation of choosing death over the treifa Medina. For centuries, ghettos and the Pale of Settlent and laws banning access to many professions served to aid keeping everyone frum. Secularism didn’t exist and the goyim gave the gedolim to enforce halacha thru the shtetls bais din
The gedolim didn’t recognize that in the 1800,s things started to spin out of control. With more options, the frum world began to lose more a.d more Jews to the various isms (Zionism, secularism, socialism etc )when and with each pogrom they left Europe. However unlike other exiles which were forced( but were accompanied by the gedolim who guided their flock,this one was self motivated and against the gedolims wishes. Instead of recognizing that millions were going anyway and sending the best and brightest to guide them, they were left unguided and their children were I’m any cases taught in chefets by bitter men who could fond no other work
lesschumras
Nevuah ended. Ruach Hakodesh did not. There are many stories of recent Gedolim like the Steipler, the Chazon ish, the Baba Sali and others who had Ruach Hakodesh.
What you “choose” to believe is your prerogative.
lesschumras:
Let me add one more thing (I can’t really make out what you’re getting to).
The reason they lost their power, the reason some Gedolom could not help in those terrible year, is because HaShem so directed. He (for His reasons) brought an erae of “edan d’ruscha”, of great fury, anger and specifically recalled all powers to mitigate it. A similarity to it is the time of the Churban, where medrash says that great men who know the power of “Sheimos”, holy incantations, were thwarted by a direct gezaira from HaShem (he changed the duties of His malachim). So yes, they were great men, they truly had powers of Ruach HaKodesh before and after, it’s a G-d given gift to those who earn it (????? ????? ???? ??? ?????), it’s just that HaShem is the ultimate Boss, at His command every thing ceases.
??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?
The Gemara says that after Nevua they still used the Bas Kol. The Gemara in Eiruvin says that Rebbe Gamliel saw with Ruach Hakodesh.
I just don’t get how someone earns such titles as Kofer, Gaava etc. for trying to see the Din. Studying Hashem’s ways is Limud. There are Machlokes in these matters as in other matters and Eilu Va’eilu applies here too, to those who learned the appropriate Sugyos well, Lishmo.
When a Mechutzef gets punished by a principle we would say, wow, look how bad it is to act that way. We won’t say, y’never know why the princple did that, maybe the boy did something else. If someone sees it so clearly I wouldn’t call him names.
HaLeiVi -TY. At least there are some who can see things clearly.
Zeeskite, if I am reading your post correctly, you are putting forward the monstrous proposition that gedolim knew with ruach hakodesh that millions of Jews would be killed unless they were instructed to get out of Europe, and they chose, without a bepharhesia directive from HKBH (and no one – not a single Rov or Godol or talmid – has ever said or written in the years since that they had divine instructions not to do or say whatever they could to save Yidden) to let millions of Jews die rather than expose them to the possibility (not the certainty of physical annihilation they faced in Europe, just the possibility) of spiritually being weakened or lost.
That is perhaps the most horrible indictment of Jewish leadership I have ever seen, and that includes the lies and falsehoods of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
I hope that my reading of your post is in error, or that you could state your belief more clearly. As it is, I am dismayed by the implications of your post.
One assumes the principal acted the way he did, and it is a logical assumption. For confirmayion, one can speak with the principal. As for why hashem does things, surely people can make logical assumptions, but last I checked there was no way to confirm those assumptions. Perhaps there are people in this generation who do have ( i will call it) the gift to know with clarity and certainty why hashem does things, but, I will say with certainty they are not members of this forum.
So, go ahead speculate. Immorality, bittul torah, talking in shul, all speculation, but if it spurs you to improve in the area, go for it. Please do not project your shortcomings on the rest of the general public. That is for the leaders of the community.
Whiteberry -“So, go ahead speculate.”
Something that makes sense is more than speculation.
“Please do not project your shortcomings on the rest of the general public. That is for the leaders of the community.”
Are you saying that the leaders know for sure the cause of the hurricaine? And if there are those in our generation that do -let them come out and tell us the reason.
One reason it came was to give us an opportunity to do chesed by helping our brothers who were affected. Did you utilize the opportunity? You still can.
what i learnt from this is that the hurricane came because of everything and anything in the world including the reason that lolly pops grow on trees.
Zeeskite, could you please clarify as per my post above?
“the little I know” – are you R’ Grylak? the mishpacha article this week sounded exactly like your posts…
Yichusdik, ZeesKite said that Baalei Ruach Hakodesh had their, usual perfect, vision blurred by Hakadosh Baruch Hu. You went on to complain about if they knew why didn’t they say. I think you should first clarify what your issue has to do with ZK’s statement.
Health, perhaps I wasn’t clear, perhaps you misunderstood. Who knows. All. I said was that all reasons given here are speculation, I didn’t make any judgement regarding the correctness of the speculation. I added that I’m sure there ARE people in this generation who are in the know, but they are not members of this forum.
I suppose it is also possible I completely misunderstood you. Did I write something yoo disagree with? Care to clarify?
On risk of being accused of sounding like the protocols of the elders of zion;
we all know that
???? ??????? ???? ?? ??????
The Brisker Rov ??”? clearly expressed his opinion, even after the war started, that it was preferable to risk one’s life in europe than one;s neshomo in communist russia.
R’ Mattisyohu Salomon has been known toexpress “Voss hoben zei oifgetohn az zei gerattevet alle yaldei tehran, und zei shpeiter upgeshmad?” – What was the purpose of saving the yaldei tehran and then forcing them into non religious kibbutzim.
On risk of being accused of sounding like the protocols of the elders of zion;
we all know that
???? ??????? ???? ?? ??????
The Brisker Rov ??”? clearly expressed his opinion, even after the war started, that it was preferable to risk one’s life in europe than one;s neshomo in communist russia.
R’ Mattisyohu Salomon has been known toexpress “Voss hoben zei oifgetohn az zei gerattevet alle yaldei tehran, und zei shpeiter upgeshmad?” – What was the purpose of saving the yaldei tehran and then forcing them into non religious kibbutzim.
Yichusdik:
Sorry for not answering you sooner.
Let me try again. From what I perceive, there were two types of Gedolim throughout the era right before churban Europe.
One who HaShem in His infinite wisdom granted crystal clear foresight into events about to unfold. It’s not a secret. Anyone know of R. Elchonon’s droshos (I think the Chafetz Chaim too). The Meshech Chachma. Others too. I know of a Chassidic Rebbe who spoke openly of events about to unfold..
Then there were others (I think a lot more) who HaShem in His good judgment decided to cloud their spiritual venues of knowledge (one reason as I mentioned before). So as great as they were, as powerful as they were before, they were totally at a loss during that time. As I wrote a direct intervention from HaShem ????? ???? ?????.
Now it’s regarding the first type, who you’re referring to, you’re asking why they didn’t tell them to leave. Good question. I don’t know. Maybe you answer.
I tried one. Let me back it up. It’s no secret of the total assimilation prevalent in those time. It’s not as you wrote “possibility” or “spiritually being weakened”. We’re talking about a definite TOTAL ASSIMILATION. Do you’re math. How many immigrants were Jewish, how many can you find of them today? I don’t have any numbers or statistics, but I’m told it was a COMPLETE assimilation. It’s no secret how all Gedolim of the past viewed America then, it was considered to be a spiritual wasteland, and they sought to prevent anyone from immigrating. So I can understand why one Gadol not outright insist on others to leave to Americe en masse, (some privately were actually advised to do so, the Gedolm knew their strengths). But as a rule I could well understand, the chance of a COMPLETE spiritual demise was DEFINITE, they chose to do what they did in all previous generations. Kidush HaShem.
Remember the words we uttered not to long ago: ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????.
<Theory One>
Let’s try another one. Yidden did hear now and then, from Gedolim, from the existing media a bit too. Why didn’t they escape. I wasn’t so simple. Can’t just get up and cross the ocean. A lot of people became entrapped because of their belongings, families etc.
<Theory Two>
Another one. There is no Nevuah today. There is Ruach HaKodesh, but not a pristine Nevuah. Perhaps even those in the know maybe thought there would be chance to escape. Or maybe those hearing the about the impending doom thought so.
<Theory Three>
To sum it up, I don’t know. What I do know is that a good amount of Gedolim foretold the impending catastrophe about to unfold. And also that not so many people made it here to these shores.
BTW, I did write another thread, where i pointed out the interesting thing of the hurricane coming on the yohrtzeit of the Chazoin Ish.
ZK -“I don’t have any numbers or statistics, but I’m told it was a COMPLETE assimilation.”
This is absolute nonsense. I really don’t have a problem with the rest of the post. While assimilation was high, you can’t call it complete. There were Yeshivos in the US before WWII and produced many Bnei Torah, who raised families Al Pi Torah.
Where did you pick up this nonsense from?
Oh, where did I pick up this nonsense from? From wherever I picked up all my other nonsense. Is this the first nonsense you sensed? (that’s nonsense)
I spent a few days a week near the jersey shore this summer and I saw so many people half dressed (putting it mildly) and wasting most of their day away with self worship.I wondered to myself “does it really bother Hashem that all these people parade day and night without proper attire and waste their days with the frivolities of just this world or maybe he doesnt care” And all the people who use their (his)money for the wrong things and gambling and smoke bad stuff and do drugs and do really bad things near the shore. and don’t forget the infamous jersey shore series! (never have seen it but heard about it enough) Then I thought, well if he did care, maybe he would do something drastic. So after watching many horrific clips of all parts that got destroyed I’m not surprised too much (but I do deeply feel extremely sad and devastated and are hurting for anyone affected) because I believe its a wake up call. Hashem is screaming!!!! Doesnt anyone hear? Just look in the Torah and you will find all the answers right there! He says: NO to Gay marriage(Fire Island, NY)! NO to inappropriate behavior! No to forbidden relationships and media! NO to immodesty! NO to wasting your time on nonsense! Hashem created us to better the world and think about each other and to serve him the right way without being so selfish and self centered!We adore money and people with money more than anything else. Did anyone hear Him?????? Most people these days don’t really think about Hashem too much. They are busy with their good times, looks, wants and needs. This in my opinion is a wake up call to jews and non jews that have forgotten G-d. So take one small thing to change (a mitzvah)or do a 360 and hope that we learnt the lesson from this catastrophe and pray that any kind of destruction like this should never happen again
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