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Person1: “As for the definition of being “in kolel”: when I read the resume of a girl, and it says her older brother is in kolel, I don’t take it to mean he is a great masmid. It’s about the way people talk. Nothing more.”
I hear. In this particular context, I personally didn’t think it made sense to define the term that way.
LU -“Health – as I pointed out to Sparkly, that’s not a proof. The OP was phrased, “Why do working people TEND to not be as ruchniyus as Kollel people?””
Of course it’s not a proof! The OP never proved that his/her statement was true in the first place. Who said that the OP is right?
What I proved was that a working guy can be on a high level!
Health: “What I proved was that a working guy can be on a high level”
Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. By bringing that point on this thread, it sounds like you are using this as a proof that the OP is wrong. If you want to start a discussion about how it’s possible for a working guy to be on a high level, that should be started as a new topic in a new thread, since it has no connection to this one (and by bringing it here, you are diverting the issue – a common problem in the CR in general).
problem – occurrence, it’s all how you look at it
NOT everyone is meant for a kollel life.
The assumption is that the “kollel” lifestyle is somehow related to ruchniyus, and that no other lifestyle approaches that. Such assumptions are so buried in the ideal, that reality has escaped completely. Whatever the original developers and advocates intended of the “kollel” lifestyle intended, it has evolved into something far more monstrous and completely different. It has become a preoccupation with dependency, rooted in laziness, avoidance of challenge, and topped with delusions of being closer to Hashem.
Here’s what kollel should be. First and foremost, an arrangement where those endowed with the skills, talents, and motivation can further their Torah knowledge in order to serve as leaders for the coming generation. This includes dayanim, rabbonim, roshei yeshivos, magidei shiur, etc. It also affords a place where baalei batim can congregate to participate in learning, shiurim, etc. It can also be a place where a newlywed can spend a limited amount of time learning Torah with the kedusha of marriage.
It is NOT place of refuge, to avoid entering a career, to live off the fruits of someone else’s hard labor. It is NOT an ideal for the wife to work, while the husband hides in the beis hamedrash. It is certainly NOT the place where a yungerman can claim to be more “ruchniyus” than the baal haboss who is adhering to halacha in his career while being koveya ittim. There is this image that “kollel” tries to pump into the value system of the entire frum community. Every girl has been conditioned to seek a “learning boy”, and every boy must direct his life to lifelong kollel in order to be considered a frum prospect for a shidduch. This is a huge embarrassment, as the sheer amount of falsehood that empowers this mirage is staggering.
And for those who have the delusion that the “kollel” lifestyle is founded on being “mistapeik be’mu’ot”, look around, and you will see this is not true. Some are, others are clearly not. What is universal is the dependency, and that is not a Torah value, certainly not for the masses.
LU -“Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. By bringing that point on this thread, it sounds like you are using this as a proof that the OP is wrong.”
That was your wrong impression! My point was -“The OP never proved that his/her statement was true in the first place. Who said that the OP is right?”
Why should I counter a statement that hasn’t been proven true in the first place?
Just because you, others & the OP believe it – why should I?!?
And for those who have the delusion that the “kollel” lifestyle is founded on being “mistapeik be’mu’ot”, look around, and you will see this is not true.
It may not be true now, but if you would have seen Lakewood even 30 years ago you would have seen Jews who sacrificed and were “mistapeik be’mu’ot” for learning Torah.
“And for those who have the delusion that the “kollel” lifestyle is founded on being “mistapeik be’mu’ot”, look around, and you will see this is not true.
It may not be true now, but if you would have seen Lakewood even 30 years ago you would have seen Jews who sacrificed and were “mistapeik be’mu’ot” for learning Torah.”
You can still see it in Eretz Yisrael today. You can also still see it in Lakewood – most people I know in Lakewood fall in that category, and make great sacrifices for Limud Torah (and let’s not start talking about the ones who don’t – there are MANY that do, and we don’t need to find negative things to say on Yom Kippur Katan of the final Rosh Chodesh Elul before Moshiach comes – by next year, we will all have the opportunity to sit and learn without being mistapek bemuat, B’ezras Hashem, as long as we avoid bashing each other and spreading motzi shem ra about Am Yisrael.)
TLIK -“Every girl has been conditioned to seek a “learning boy”, and every boy must direct his life to lifelong kollel in order to be considered a frum prospect for a shidduch.”
Now why do you think that is? Is this part of the reason – why we have a Shidduch crisis?
I think that most of the conditioning came from the schools, not the parents!
Here’s what kollel should be. First and foremost, an arrangement where those endowed with the skills, talents, and motivation can further their Torah knowledge in order to serve as leaders for the coming generation. This includes dayanim, rabbonim, roshei yeshivos, magidei shiur, etc.
Honestly, I find that there’s a near equal amount of ruchniyus among all people who learned in Yeshiva for 5+ years, whether or not they’re still learning full time. What I also find, is that poorer people tend to be much much more obsessed with gashmiyus, as contradictory as it sounds. I find that when I talk with people that make minimal income, still in school, or learning full time in kollel, they have a higher tendency to bring up the subject of money. Everything is discussed in terms of how much it costs. Retail stores are overanalyzed for price differences, every Afikomen present is treated as a huge deal, and they know (intricately) the differences between a Sienna and an Odyssey. Full time kollel families are far from immune to this.
What I also find, is that poorer people tend to be much much more obsessed with gashmiyus, as contradictory as it sounds.
The Vilna Gaon disagrees with you.
Gra: Torah comes from the poor – not the rich
??? ??? ?????? ????
??] ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????’ [????? ??.], ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???????, ???? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ???????. ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ??????? ? ):
??)?????? ?? ????? ????????? ??????, ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? (???? ????? ???? ??? ???) < ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????
GAW -“It may not be true now, but if you would have seen Lakewood even 30 years ago you would have seen Jews who sacrificed and were “mistapeik be’mu’ot” for learning Torah”
Even then it wasn’t very common!
LU – Stop dreaming! I’ve been in Lakewood for many, many years.
“What I also find, is that poorer people tend to be much much more obsessed with gashmiyus, as contradictory as it sounds. I find that when I talk with people that make minimal income, still in school, or learning full time in kollel, they have a higher tendency to bring up the subject of money.”
Having the tendency to bring up the subject of money is not an indication that a person is more obsessed with gashmiyus than one who does not have this tendency.
If you have a lot of money, you don’t have to discuss the cost of things because it doesn’t affect your ability to afford it. That doesn’t mean you aren’t obsessed with gashmiyus.
The Gaon does not disagree with me. What he’s saying is that “??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???????”. I am saying that the same fathers who push on to their sons a love of learning over gashmiyus have a much higher tendency to obsess over gashmiyus.
You know who you remind me of? A woman my wife knows. Her husband is in kollel full time, and she feels the constant need to remind everyone of it and how difficult her life is. My wife got annoyed at her once when she started a conversation with the implication that our family goes on vacation all the time (which she can’t do because she’s so poor and it’s hard, ya know?). So she retorted with “My husband uses all of his vacation time from work for Yom Tov, simchas, and visiting parents. Unlike yours, he doesn’t get the entire Chol HaMoed or Bein HaZmanim to spend with his family.”
It’s almost as if, I dunno, she feels like she has something she needs to prove to herself because she’s so uncertain about it. What do you think Joe?
I think your wife has the wrong friends, Yserbius. That is very atypical of the vast majority of Kollel families. That is also what is probably leading you to reach the mistaken conclusions on the things that you say “What I also find”.
“LU – Stop dreaming! I’ve been in Lakewood for many, many years.”
So have I! And almost everyone I know, if not everyone is EXTREMELY mistapek b’muat and sacrifices a TON for Torah AND Chesed!!!! You may know different people than I do, and I feel really badly for you, because there are so many wonderful people in Lakewood whom you can meet. If you do know other people, please take note of the crucial note in my last post before commenting further!!! Please!!! Moshiach IS coming this year, if we only let him!!!!!
Meno: “Having the tendency to bring up the subject of money is not an indication that a person is more obsessed with gashmiyus than one who does not have this tendency.
If you have a lot of money, you don’t have to discuss the cost of things because it doesn’t affect your ability to afford it. That doesn’t mean you aren’t obsessed with gashmiyus.”
Meno, thanks. Precisely my thoughts, although I’m not sure if I could have phrased it as well. Thanks for saving me the effort.
Oh, I mamesh have no patience for this. The OP made a very presumptuous statement about ruchniyus. I know Kollel people who are not particularly ruchaNIYIM (an adjective, not “ruchniyus,” which is a noun). I know FREI people l’gamrei, who are extremely spiritual. Spirituality is not in the exclusive purview of “learning” people. It is a state of mind and being, and comes to each person in a different way. Based on the OPs question, one could ask why some Kollel people seem to want a certain gashmiyus-filled lifestyle that is inconsistent with the ruchniyus they supposedly possess. My statement and the original remark made by the OP are both faulty in their premise. As soon as one makes a generalization about a group, that is a questionable thing, as far as I am concerned.
SOME Kollel people are more spiritual than SOME working people. SOME working people are incredibly spiritual,more so than SOME Kollel people. Our hashkafos are personal, and what you see on the outside is not always what is contained in the inside. Al tistakeil bakankan…etc.
Gra: Torah comes from the poor – not the rich
What do I need the GRA for, it is Offen a Gemorah Nedarim 81A:
????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? (????? ??) ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????
You can still see it in Eretz Yisrael today.
True, although easier when everyone else around you also has nothing.
lilmod ulelamaid – If you didn’t want a discussion you shouldn’t have gotten involved in the topic.
I think your wife has the wrong friends, Yserbius. That is very atypical of the vast majority of Kollel families. That is also what is probably leading you to reach the mistaken conclusions on the things that you say “What I also find”.
I have to agree with Joe, although I find the same to be true with many Kollel “couples” (vs. families) It is the real long term learners, who have to marry off children while still in Kollel and can’t because they can’t support a son in-law, that are seriously sacrificing for learning.
And I agree with lilmod ulelamaid that many families in Lakewood are still like that. Unfortunately, it no longer defines the city, and the city is not viewed as a city of those who are Mistapek B’Muat.
“You can still see it in Eretz Yisrael today.
True, although easier when everyone else around you also has nothing.”
True, but still not simple. And there are always those who have less than others. And often, people take turns being the one who has less than others, so many people get to be in that situation.
But, if you are going to be poor, it is definitely MUCH more geshmak to be poor in Eretz Yisrael where there is so much more ruchnius, so you don’t need the gashmius as much!!! And where there is so much more hashagacha pratis (see the Ramban – sorry I don’t have the source,and I’m too busy making potato kugel to look it up :))
But, if you are going to be poor, it is definitely MUCH more geshmak to be poor in Eretz Yisrael where there is so much more ruchnius, so you don’t need the gashmius as much!!!
Hear hear.
But, if you are going to be poor, it is definitely MUCH more geshmak to be poor in Eretz Yisrael where there is so much more ruchnius, so you don’t need the gashmius as much!!!
Hear hear.
🙂 Feeling so lucky to be here!
LU – “So have I! And almost everyone I know, if not everyone is EXTREMELY mistapek b’muat and sacrifices a TON for Torah AND Chesed”
May I ask how many years?
Cut the baloney! How many people do you know that didn’t take a vacation or send their kids to camp?!?
Joseph, little I know is right about what Kollel should be. Kollel as we know never existed in Europe. Jews were too poor to support anyone who wasn’t talented enough to be a Talmud chachom , rosh yeshiva etc . Ironically, it was the baby boomers who went to yeshiva AND worked that funded the current system. As the boomers age out and pass, the system will contract. A friend supports two sons in a Lakewood kollel. However, there is no way fifteen years from now that they’ll be able to do the same for their sons. The contraction won’t happen tomorrow but it’s inevitable.
It has become a preoccupation with dependency, rooted in laziness, avoidance of challenge, and topped with delusions of being closer to Hashem.
This is a disgusting portrayal of bitter people determined to talk down a beautiful lifestyle which makes them feel inferior.
“Kollel” is where men of all calibers – with one common trait, which is motivation – sit and learn Torah, ???? ?????. There are thousands of yungerleit all over the world who have no interest in anything but the d’veykus of Torah. It is something we should all aspire to, even if many are not able to make it.
Yes, we all agree that there are those who don’t belong in Kollel. There are people in every sector of humanity who don’t belong, who are simply working on the benefits a specific vocation would have for them, and skirt the responsibilities it comes with. But these are a minority. And to say that this is the entire Kollel community is nothing short of ????? ?? ??.
“It has become a preoccupation with dependency, rooted in laziness, avoidance of challenge, and topped with delusions of being closer to Hashem.
This is a disgusting portrayal of bitter people determined to talk down a beautiful lifestyle which makes them feel inferior.
“Kollel” is where men of all calibers – with one common trait, which is motivation – sit and learn Torah, ???? ?????. There are thousands of yungerleit all over the world who have no interest in anything but the d’veykus of Torah. It is something we should all aspire to, even if many are not able to make it.
Yes, we all agree that there are those who don’t belong in Kollel. There are people in every sector of humanity who don’t belong, who are simply working on the benefits a specific vocation would have for them, and skirt the responsibilities it comes with. But these are a minority. And to say that this is the entire Kollel community is nothing short of ????? ?? ??.”
Shkoyach Yekke2!
Is it necessary to insult Zevulun as he gives Yissocher his livelihood?
“Is it necessary to insult Zevulun as he gives Yissocher his livelihood?”
No. Likewise, it is also unnecessary to insult Yissochar as he gives Zevulun his livelihood.
Health – I would appreciate it if you could learn to respond to my posts politely. Comments like “Cut the baloney” “Stop dreaming” and “Wrong!” are inappropriate and unintelligent and do not lend themselves to intellectual adult discourse. If you have a question on something I wrote and would like to ask me about it, I would be happy to respond if you ask me politely and appropriately. Thank you in advance.
yekke2: “Yes, we all agree that there are those who don’t belong in Kollel. There are people in every sector of humanity who don’t belong, who are simply working on the benefits a specific vocation would have for them, and skirt the responsibilities it comes with. But these are a minority. And to say that this is the entire Kollel community is nothing short of ????? ?? ??”.
How many people do you suppose there are in mathematics faculties who don’t belong there? Very few. And you know why? Because you don’t go to study math unless you want to. And if you find out it’s not for you, you can leave. And if you don’t like it that much, you can dedicate just part of your time to it and do something else in your remaining time.
That’s not the situation with learning in kolel in the litvak community. You don’t chooses to go to kolel. You have to go, regardless of your abilities and inclinations. You might hate it, but you still can’t leave. You must spend two thirds of your waking yours there.
How many people who are out of place do you suppose such an institution yields? Considering the above, I’d be very surprised if batlonus wasn’t a very significant part of kolels. But you don’t have to guess. You can just go and see for yourself. You will find many people who outright do nothing. You’?l find even more who learn torah in the least enthusiastic way possibly. You can call them “yeveshim” (dry) or whatever you like. Clearly the last thing they have is motivation.
“This is a disgusting portrayal of bitter people determined to talk down a beautiful lifestyle which makes them feel inferior”.
What makes them feel inferior is not just the lifestyle, but partly a sociaty that’s determined to look down at them, for reasos that are everything except yiras shomaim.
L.uL. I already wrote to you once. This place is a wild conglomeration of posters, anonymous, from all walks of life. Common denominator? Of the human species. You’re basically not going to change anyone’s middos or Hashkafos here. It’s just a place to schmooze, let off steam, come for or give encouragement chizuk. Each poster comes with his/her own background, character traits, mindset. If you stay here long enough you get used to them. You’ll learn how to communicate and converse with different people of different backgrounds.
Hatzlacha. And welcome to the Wild East!
You’re basically not going to change anyone’s middos or Hashkafos here
I’m curious to know what you meant by that. It can be highly condescending or just a passing comment. I hope you meant the later.
But I do disagree with you. Your (as in “each individual”) job as a yid is not to work on changing other people. The job of a yid is to change ourselves. Read posts and change yourself. Hear other’s opinions and change yourself. Learn what sets you off and change yourself. Changing other people for the good would involve knowing who you are speaking to and how they ‘tick’. Changing other people for the bad is as easy as being a lousy role model. Our job is to change ourselves.
Yes, we all agree that there are those who don’t belong in Kollel.
Just curious, what data do you have that shows the percentage that “doesn’t belong” (and that needs to be defined) is a minority?
Just from my own observations in America (and therefore anecdotal, not data). EY is a whole different ballgame, and differs betwen Charaidim and Dati Leumi (including Chardal):
Most Kollel bochrim for the first 5 years are there for the ride. They are getting support and are better off learning with support than leaving without it, and expenses are low.
After about 5 years they get serious or start leaving.
The Men who are still in Kollel when they need to marry off their children are Ruba D’Ruba very serious about their learning.
What makes them feel inferior is not just the lifestyle, but partly a sociaty that’s determined to look down at them, for reasos that are everything except yiras shomaim.
Disagree completely. The society makes those who leave learning feel inferior because some edited, sorry want to pressure people to stay in learning long after they would have left on their own. Whether is is for good or evil I will let you decide.
Right on!!
Joe, you are twisting the words of the Rambam. He says (Mishneh Torah, Talmud Torah, 3:10, and thanks to R’ Eliyahu Fink for the translation):
Anyone who comes to the conclusion that he should involve himself in Torah study without doing work and derive his livelihood from charity, desecrates name, dishonors the Torah, extinguishes the light of faith, brings evil upon himself, and forfeits the life of the world to come, for it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world.
Yes, in Hilchos Shemitah v’Yovel he goes through the benefits that the Levi’im got, and says that anyone can get the same benefits if they want to dedicate themselves to serving Hashem. However, in his commentary on the Mishna (Avos, 4th perek) he lays out exactly what benefits those are. He also says that many people twist words to allow themselves to learn without working to earn a living at all, and that it is completely wrong. He maintains that even someone who is learning needs to have some kind of business/job in order to support himself and his family. He brings as proof the fact that the Tanaim and Amoraim all had businesses to support themselves.
Congrats, Joe. You are doing just as the Rambam said – twisting words to mean what you want them to mean.
Regardless of what the Rambam said or didn’t way, WE can not posken according to the Rambam. WE posken based on what OUR Gedolim say (having learned the relevant sources and understanding them much better than we can and knowing how they apply to contemporary society).
Rav Moshe Feinstein Zatsal has very strong words to say regarding someone who DOESN’T learn because he doesn’t want to take money. I believe that someone may have quoted the source earlier (either in this thread or another one). If not, I would appreciate it if someone who knows it could bring it (I don’t have an Igros Moshe handy).
Joseph: Then maybe I should stop hanging around you too? Your attitude seems nearly identical to this woman I was talking about. Like you have something to prove to everyone else.
I know tons of full-time kollel people. Enough to know that obsessing over money and gashmiyus is very far from atypical. Those are the people who are in full time kollel because of the pressure. They are talmidei chachamim, so they were pushed into fulfilling their potential. Unfortunately, just because you can quote any Gemara verbatim does not necessarily mean you have the personality suited for a life of next to no basic income.
DaasYochid – Amazing how we’ve had the same arguments with the same Tzdaddim all this time. I’m even surprised how consistent I am with what I said in a long forgotten discussion four years ago.
OOmis -“Oh, I mamesh have no patience for this. The OP made a very presumptuous statement about ruchniyus.”
Why is that a Chiddush to you? Go check out who the OP is! That’s his MO!
DaMoshe: The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3. Not works 9am to 5pm. What in the world does that have to do with today’s working man’s lifestyle where he works 8 hours a day and almost never even learns 3? It proves nothing that Chazal endorsed working, since working in those days meant learning 8 hours a day.
The Rambam praises those who learn all day and don’t have jobs, as the elite “Shevet Levi” of our days. Clearly, even if working is endorsed, it is inferior to those who learn. To reconcile the Rambam with the Chazals, you can choose any of the commentaries available, some of which explain it similar to the above points.
If learning in Kollel is against the Chazals about Melachah and Derech Eretz, then so is being a Rebbi or a Rav. See the Rama YD 246:6. He brings your Chazals and says that therefore nobody can be a paid Rebbi or a Rav either, since he relies on the congregation. But then he brings dissenting opinions, and rules that the custom is that Torah scholars do benefit from their learning, by support from the community. Then he brings other opinions that the community should support its Torah scholars even to the point of affluence. The Shach points out that the Halacha always follows the Minhag and the Minhag is like those opinions that one may depend on the community to support him in order to learn. He says that this is because of the Halachah of Ais La’Asos, meaning, even if it is theoretically prohibited to rely on the community, but because nowadays we cannot do both, become great in Torah and make independent livings, the right thing to do is to learn Torah and be supported.
Yserbius: You’re hanging around the wrong people. You have a very skewed and unrepresentative view.
Also, the entire premise of this thread is insane, zichur full of gayva, and probably loshon hora. “People in kollel have more ruchniyus”? What does that even mean? Ruchniyus is such a vague term, you can basically apply it to nearly anything from shteigin in a beis medrash to meditating on a mountaintop. So the whole purpose here is just a smug comment saying “Heh. Look at you working people. Us who sit and learn all day are BETTER THAN YOU!”
Your landlord does not usually care how much torah you know, He wants his rent. The grocery store also does not care how much torah you know, he needs to get paid
Regards of what you have been told. The groceries cost the store owner money and he cant give them out for free and the Apartment owned by the landlord also costs him money.
Con Ed also could care less about how much torah you know, They want the electric bill paid otherwise they will turn off the lights
LU -“Health – I would appreciate it if you could learn to respond to my posts politely. Comments like “Cut the baloney” “Stop dreaming” and “Wrong!” are inappropriate and unintelligent and do not lend themselves to intellectual adult discourse. If you have a question on something I wrote and would like to ask me about it, I would be happy to respond if you ask me politely and appropriately.”
“”I’ve been in Lakewood for many, many years.”
So have I!”
How’s this? May I ask how many years?
In Europe the kids after 6 or 7 went out to work. Only the best stayed in Yeshiva and then went to Kollel!
Rav Hirsch on Parshas Re’eh:
Under Jewish law, support is assured to every poor person, and tzedakah does not shame the recipient who needs it. Moreover, one who is unable to work, but out of misplaced pride refuses the tzedakah to which he is entitled, is called a shofech damim.
Health- shkoyach! Thanks for asking so nicely. I would rather not answer that question since I do not want to give too much personal information online. I will just say that it was several years, and it was long enough to meet and get to know many people. Since I’m a single girl, I spent a lot of time in people’s houses and really getting to know them.
The people that I know in Lakewood are incredibly non-materialistic in addition to being very hard-working!!!! I always considered myself to be extremely non-materialistic, but I really don’t think that I could live the way they do. I certainly could not work as hard. I really don’t think that I could have done what these people do – gotten married at 19 or 20 to a guy who was planning to (and did) spend the rest of his life learning, and raised 10 or so kids while supporting the family nearly single-handedly and living on very little. The people that I know don’t go on vacations (unless you count a weekend by their parents during bein hazmanim).
One lady I know felt that two of her kids really needed to go to camp during the summer. These were her two teenage girls who work INCREDIBLY hard all year since she is a working mother with a bunch of kids, and she can’t afford any cleaning help. Since she felt that these 2 girls NEEDED to go to camp, she took on an extra job and made herself crazy working crazy-hard in order to be able to pay for it. She does not send any of her other girls to camp, and she is not sending her daughter to seminary in Eretz Yisrael. She is sending her to a very inexpensive seminary in the US even though it is COMPLETELY not the right school for her daughter and her daughter is not excited about it at all and would love to go to Eretz Yisrael and would gain a ton from it! This is despite all the pressure from yours truly to try to convince her to send her daughter to EY, because she says she simply can’t afford it!
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