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Seriously why do they teach the boys and girls different havarah? Why dont they teach girls the Yeshivish havara? (I probably just insulted a whole bunch of Harrys)
So they can never be Rabbis; never speak in public; never lain in shul without being laughed out of the house.
The MO teach boys and girls the same havarah, and look where that’s going. The Maharats are an offshoot, as are all the talmudettes.
OK I’ve had my fun. Now thread can be closed.
you do realize that the yeshivish havara is the newest one that exists it is exclusivly an american invention and is horrifically inaccurate. particularly the newest version where its combined a little more with the chassidish way and e/t is milail….
depends what school the girl went to. And because baalei kriyah sound like harrys when they want to lein properly
Harrys?!?!?
Just because we guys have a silly hangup about sounding yeshivish, doesn’t mean girls should be taught improper havarah.
This thread was worth it for squeak.
What is “Harrys?”
American sounding, in this case, “oh” rather than “oi”.
Did Moshe Rabbeinu speak of the Toyrah on Har Sinai?
Thank WIY for bringing this up. I wondered about that for years.
Squeak- well said.
It’s also a serious problem because according to many Poskim one is not yotzei saying the Shem Hashem when saying ‘Ado- rather one must say Adoi-
A few years back when I found out about this, I informed my mother and since then she’s been careful during davening to pronounce the Shem Hashem correctly.
Sadly many people that try to be machmir in other things don’t know about this.
An even worse problem is when people pronounce Hashems Name as Adi-noy, which according to virtually all Poskim is not valid.
Very common unfortunately. Just listen to Chazaras Hashatz. It’s a mitzvah to publicize this.
Yismach Moyshe b’matnas chelkoy
Ki eved ne’emon koroso loy
K’lil tiferes b’royshoy nosato loy
B’omdoy l’fonecho al Har Sinoy
Or:
Yismach Mohshe b’matnas chelkoh
Ki eved ne’emon koroso loh
K’lil tiferes b’rohshoh nosato loh
B’omdoh l’fonecho al Har Sinoh
??
pba, thank you muchly
DY – neither… even according to the “oyers” it should be See-nuy not See-noy. And anyways, mihaychi taysi that it’s supposed to rhyme in the first place? Sorry, but that’s a very weak proof, if at all one.
ShalomToYou, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Ever seen the proofs as to whether “oh” or “oi” is correct? Spoiler alert: The proofs for “oh” are much more convincing.
Anyway, the rabonim (might’ve been the Moetzes, but I don’t remember) decided many years ago that both havaros are fine.
You’re right about the Adi problem. That’s definitely not how it’s pronounced.
It would seem to me, that as the Teimanim are believed to have the authentic throughout history pronunciation of Ivrit, that Oh, rather than Oy is correct.
Was it not first in Europe that the havara changed? And WIY is correct about Sinai (See-neye).
Shalom: What on earth are you talking about that you’re not Yotzei with Ado…? A Cholam making an O sound is far more correct than an Oi. Where did you get that “P’sak”?
I have a hypothesis to answer the OP.
When Bais Yakov was first started the female teachers were drawn from the Yekke communities in Germany, because they were the only available women learned enough to teach. They taught using their yekkish pronunciation and it got altered slightly over the years to the current pronunciation.
I have discussed this before somewhere.
Many of our tefilos, selichos and piyutim were written in rhyme.
I was told by a prominent rov, to always use the haavara you were originally taught in.
Few in europe said “o” they either said oy ei or ow
sbeph,
I think the “ow” become “o” in America.
Few in europe said “o” they either said oy ei or ow
In the last years of Europe there was a lot more “ow” than the other two.
Huh? Or is it Heh?
Hoi! , as in ahoy! , apushata.
Your welcome.
Ok… what is a Harry? I’ve come across this term several times.
I want to know if I sound like one.
How do I know if I sound like a Harry?
i was answering torahs q- A-backpacks and highlighters.
Sorry, but that’s a very weak proof, if at all one
I agree. It’s still cute.
DY
Actually the word sinai I pronounce see-nigh (nigh of the word night) not see-noi.
Not at the end of a passuk (but see my post above; I meant it b’derech b’dichusa).
DY – I know you meant it derech s’chok but it’s not cute, or even a proof for two reasons:
a) The rhyming supposition is unfounded, as the words “shabbos” and “sorosecha” definitely do not and will never rhyme with “chelko[y]”
b)The two siddurim generally held to be grammatically most accurate (and those most widespread in the Germanic kehillos for the last 250 years) – siddur Sfas Emes and siddur Avodas Yisroel – both have “Sinai” with a patach and not a komatz in sight.
SHALOMTOYOU – It is indeed a very common problem, and one should made every effort to learn to pronounce Hashem’s name correctly.
Having said that, Piskei Teshuvos (1: 5: 6) quotes from Nimukei Orach Chaim, that articulating the daled of A-doinoi with a chirik, sounding as A-dinoi, may be acceptable after the fact.
The opinion of Rav Miller shlit”a (from Canada] is that it is OK b’dieved, and one answers “Baruch Hu uvaruch shemo” and “Amein” to such brachos.
However, I do not understand this psak, nor do I agree with it.
It’s also a serious problem because according to many Poskim one is not yotzei saying the Shem Hashem when saying ‘Ado- rather one must say Adoi-
It seems to me that this is not true at all. It is a matter of custom. Ask your rav.
An even worse problem is when people pronounce Hashems Name as Adi-noy, which according to virtually all Poskim is not valid.
Very common unfortunately. Just listen to Chazaras Hashatz. It’s a mitzvah to publicize this.
This is true. See my comments above. There is a sign in the Mirrer Yeshiva (by the coffee area, for some reason) regarding this matter. Over this past Shabbos, I have heard a baal tefilla for Mincha (erev Shabbos) saying the name of Hashem wrong in EVERY bracha of Chazaras Hashatz. In addition, I heard the baal koreh saying it wrong (Mincha on Shabbos), as well as one of the people who received an aliyah saying it wrong in both brachos. Next time, I will bli neder make a point of rebuking those who say it wrong (if I can muster up the courage to do so).
mik5:
Next time, I will bli neder make a point of rebuking those who say it wrong (if I can muster up the courage to do so).
I hope you’re writing this as a late April Fools joke, and that you’re not serious. If you’re not the gabbai of the shule or yeshiva, then it’s not your place to rebuke ANYONE. What are you, a Harry?
a) The rhyming supposition is unfounded, as the words “shabbos” and “sorosecha” definitely do not and will never rhyme with “chelko[y]”
Meh. The rhyme has got to end somewhere.
b)The two siddurim generally held to be grammatically most accurate (and those most widespread in the Germanic kehillos for the last 250 years) – siddur Sfas Emes and siddur Avodas Yisroel – both have “Sinai” with a patach and not a komatz in sight.
That just proves that the other siddurim are correct.
Torah613Torah, have you ever figured out what a Harry is?
The Torah requires me to rebuke any Jew who is doing an aveira. It is not recommended to argue with the Torah, takahmamash.
mik5, you’ve got a lot to learn about life and derech eretz. Good luck.
P.S., I’m not arguing with the Torah – I’m arguing with you. Do you go up to women on the street and complain to them if they don’t meet your ideas of tznuah?
takahmamash: You made a statement that it is not my place to rebuke ANYONE unless I am a gabbai. This is simply not true. The mitzvah of rebuking sinners was given to every Jew, not just to gabbais.
I try my best not to look at immodest women. Sometimes I do want to go over to them, and tell the husband who is wearing a long kapote: “Take off your kapote and have your wife [who is wearing a mini-skirt] put it on.”
Is it a kvi, Kevi, Koy or Kow?
i’m starting to get the picture that mik5 is one of those teens Joseph was able to influence.
Influence in what?
If the Tochacha (however you pronounce that) is given gently and with genuine concern to help the other person get it right, it is almost always accepted gratefully, and everyone wins.
It is most certainly incumbent upon you to do so in most cases.
If it is done in the form of rebuke, you are likely to get less favorable results.
It is most certainly incumbent upon you not to do so in all cases.
I often hear people pronounce Hashem’s Name as, “Ah-doh-noh”, forgetting that even if you pronounce a cholam as “oh”, the Yud at the end of the Name is still there. I wonder what Rav Miller v’siyato would say about this.
I still don’t know what a Harry is.
Your loss.
for all who asked: harry is a term for guys that are yeshivish but its clear they grew up more modernish, fully MO, or maybe just out of town. So they try to fit into yeshivish culture but don’t always get it right or davka do their own thing. For example, wearing a gray hat. Touro is swarming with them.
I know of 2 Harrys
Harry Potter
Prince Harry (England)
kidding, I heard of Harry and greasy a couple years ago from my daughter.
i’m starting to get the picture that mik5 is one of those teens Joseph was able to influence.
Can’t believe I missed that for over a day.
Thanks for the compliment! Though I suspect he’s well over his teenage years and developed his proper hashkafos without my input.
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