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Last year Rabbi Reisman pointed out that since women are voluntarily “suspending their kesuba rights” (not how he put it, can’t remember his words) by supporting their husbands they’d do well to excel in the areas left, such as kavod.
Recently I read something, can’t remember where, of a yungerman who went to an early morning shiur, above and beyond the intense learning he was doing, so that his wife, who had such a hard day ahead of her, shouldn’t feel resentful of his being able to sleep a little longer.
A bit of chochma on every side will go far. Yeah, we’ve been taught not to be the mashgiach, rather to be the facilitator, for want of a better word, but as long as there are young women going out with boys, who’ve never held a summer or part time job or been accountable to anyone, who have no plan or ideas or tentative road map for their lives, this disparity will be a problem.
i would just like to comment about what bptotty said regarding a husband and wife being 50/50 partners. although i understand what you were trying to say, bptotty, a marriage should never be 50/50. that’s not a marriage. marriage is 100/100. both sides have to put in their all for each other.
For the average yeshiva bachur, nothing drasitcally changes from before the chasuna to after the chasuna, with the exception of his roomate. A girl on the other hand often finds herself in the role of breadwinner for the family, housekeeper and chef, all roles she might be familiar with, but as a helper, not as the one responsible to ensure this was done. On top of this, her day has become much longer, more stressful, with less time for socializing with her friends. It is a natural human reaction to be resentful of someone who takes that for granted.
I know of a guy that told his chavrusa that the only day he can stick in a shmooze during seder is on sundays cuz thats the day his wife has off from work. He said he feels very guilty shmoozing while she is working to support his learning.
You are correct HLM, I do try to give it my 100% (as does Mrs.) Thank you for making that point.
This brings to mind the joke (not really SURE it’s a joke!) about why (although, yes, there ARE exceptions) mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law generally do not get along.
Why???
Because deep in her heart, the mother-in-law KNOWS how SHE treats her own husband, and so she has negative feelings toward her daughter-in-law whom she feels is probably her treating HER dear son the SAME way!!!
The joke that comes to my mind (edited for the CR) is:
Kallah: mommy, I’m a bit concerned about Best Bocher’s hashkofos.
Mommy: (or shvigger, depending on the side you’re looking from)
Not to worry, Shefalah;
From you, he’ll learn Ahavas Yisroel.
From Tatty, he’ll learn Emunah and Bitachon.
And from me, he’ll learn Yiras Ha’Oinesh!
Too late to edit but I hope it was clear that in my first paragraph, it’s the husbands’ kavod obligation I was referring to.
Josh31 hit it on the button. You and your parents “marketed” you as a lamdan, masmid, and 10 year or long-term learner. Both the girl and her parents assumed that to be true. Then she sees you get up late to daven, text messaging shtusim when you are with her, and listening to the sports, etc. Someone feels taken here.
NO- I do not mean that the wife should hound her husband and be his mashgiach – thats looking for trouble. But the husband should show that he is serious and committed. Getting up earlier than her for that extra shiur is a nice gesture. Using Shabbos to learn (of course, rest too), and the same for bein hazmanim. The old adage of “the proof is in the pudding” applies here.
After all – thats what you represented yourself to be – only blame yourself and /or your parents if you were “migazem” a bit too much. But surely do not take it out on your wife. She is working like a super-woman beyond what she ever dreamed she would have to. Show her the respect and appreciation.
Funny topic. I think that women have a sensitive sense of smell. They know whether their husband is actually accomplishing anything, or if he is going through the motions. That’s even assuming he is not sitting around shmoozing half of seder, where it’s poshut that she will smell him out……
A theory: at it’s core, the divide between the Bais Yaakov system & the Lakewood system is that between a Torah-driven Hirschian derech and the Torah-only Eastern European derech.
jay, the Bais Yaakov system isn’t the Hirschian derech.
True. Notice that I carefully wrote,” a Torah-driven Hirschian derech.” (Not to imply that R’ Hirsch wasn’t Torah-driven).
My point was that the Bais Yaakov movement was founded and nurtured by people trained in the Hirschian way. Sarah Schenirer herself was inspired by R’ Hirsch originally, and a buki in all R’ Hirsch’s writings. The people she brought in to run the movement were Hirschians. There are echoes even today…..
jay: if you look in the Artscroll Stone chumash you will find it replete with Hirschian thought, what a teacher in (the contemporary, late Hirschian) seminary referred to as permeating goals to stress to the students. Rav Dessler is also a gold mine for such hashkafa.
However, while Bais Yaakovs may be better at getting their kids to take their secular (ok, nod to Rav Hirsch, general) studies seriously trust me, they are not being given over the way RSRH intended. Yeah, we go out to face the cruel world. Sort of. Via Raizel White and limited jobs, for some girls. Through other venues for others. So? Is that the sum total of TIDE in your book?
For example, anyone at all familiar with R’ Hirsch’s writings will recognize immediately that Chani Juravel’s writings are heavily inspired by him. It is hard to imagine a Hirschian attaining such prominence in the men’s Yeshiva world…..
I did not mean to imply that the Bais Yaakov’s follow TIDE. Believe me, we are on the same page in that regard…..
I merely I find it interesting that there remains a tiny remnant of Hirschian thought in the movement…. Perhaps this explains the almost crisp attitude & semi-professionalism one finds in the movement. Very different from the men’s yeshiva world. Just a theory….
If a girl is working her head off to support her husband so he can learn, then the least he can do is LEARN.
Maybe they have been influenced greatly by the story of Rabbi Akiva, who overheard his wife telling the women (who made fun of her for being basically left a “Gemarah widow” for 12 years) that were he there to hear her she would tell him to go learn for another 12 years. And so he did, without even stopping by for a danish and a cup of coffee.
…or even saying hello to her, he left her for another 12 years.
If a girl is working her head off to support her husband so he can learn, then the least he can do is LEARN.
Why should he? What’s the difference? She wanted a yeshiva guy so she could tell her friends, and make her rebbetzins proud. She got what she wanted.
Seriously, once she marries him, she should be trying to do what is best for him and her. If this is who he is, you can’t change that. You need to live with the husband you have, not the one you want.
If she feels like she was misled into marriage, I feel bad for her. If being misled into marriage is a common problem, perhaps it is time to rethink how we date.
A part of the problem is that girls have to take their responsibilities much more seriously than boys.
For example, if a young married wife is working, and she has to be at her job at 9:00 than usually she is there at 8:55. But if a guy starts seder at 9:00, than its perfectly normal for him to show up at 9:15. Shmiras sedarim allowances give the money if you show up within the first 10 minutes and then reduce (not take away) the amount if you show up within the first 25)
For a girl there is no such thing as saying im not in the mood of doing laundery or cooking supper- tough! its gotta get done and theres no one else to do it. But her husband can easily say on a shabbos afternoon “im not in the mood of learning now”
so its understandable that when she sees this she is thinking why can he slack off and i cant? yes he just got married and its hard to stick to his sedarim. but so did i just get married and im still doing everything I did before (work, college) plus all my new obligations (cooking, cleaning etc)
“If she feels like she was misled into marriage, I feel bad for her. If being misled into marriage is a common problem, perhaps it is time to rethink how we date”
You said it! No perhaps about it.
WIY-
whats the difference?
shes still making supper every nite- even if its an easier supper. theres a difference btwn that and only making supper when shes in the mood. ANd besides I thought we were talking about newlyweds. So shes still cooking her grand suppers. And the reason they start to make more “convenient” supper is because usually there is a baby to take care of after a year
Shes still doing her job perfectly fine even if it isnt an outstanding job. So therefore she feels that he should be doing his job perfectly fine
My point was that I can understand why a girl would feel like she has to tell her husband to go learn or daven. Im not saying that she should. There are ways of encouragemnt that will get the guy to daven and learn more, without the wife having to spell it out and getting her husband annoyed
“My #1 rule: Don’t get involved with other couples’ marital relationships. If it works for them, great. If not, they’ll work it out.”
That dosnt apply if their doing things kneged halacha like spending too much time with their wife and so on. Then I do have to get involved since kol yisroel arivim zeh lazeh.
mosherose – a few questions: How you decide if someone is spending too much time with their wife? How do know how much time he’s spending with her? Do you have surveillance in the home? Is your involvement through Daas Torah or do you make the decsion on your own? What does kol yisroel arivim zeh lazeh allow you to do? As you defend our faith – please explain your methods & procedures. Thanks!
mosherose-if u want to, ignore your wife. Go ahead. I won’t marry you or anyone like you and I pity your wife if this is the way you look at marriage. Your wife is not a factory machine to make children in. She is a human being who deserves to be treated properly and talking to her is not an aveira. Stop with your rediculous thing of not spending time with your wife!
Mischief – pretty sure his concepts of dating are not yours(no matter how yeshivish you are); you needn’t worry about crossing paths.
Moq, this last M. Rose post has convinced me that he’s actually a teenager with too much time on his hands, who’s giggling away at all this as we speak.
Tzippi, I know who he is. He isn’t a teenager, but in his early 20s.
I have to call his sister one day to find out if he is really this crazy now IRL or if hes more normal and playing. He used to be a huge sports fanatic and we would talk about sportscenter. My how times have (seemingly) changed LOL.
SJS, How do you know he is the same one you know?
Talking sportscenter, with a girl? One more strike and they will throw him out of yeshiva.
Ben Torah, there is only one Moshe Rose.
But there were a few things he said early on that made realize it was him. He’s originally from California too.
APY, he has to make up for his previous sins.
Nevermind talking with a girl, I mean, girls talk about sportscenter? Do they have a cooking segment? 🙂
I think the issue here is NEWLY WED… boys in general adjust to marriage a little different to their female counterparts… and many a young wife cannot understand their husbands obsession with her especially at the expense of seder etc..
Fast forward a year or 2 or 5 and for the most part they have a healthy marriage with the husband learning stable and consistent.
SJS: How do you know there is only one such person with that name?
just because they are young and immature. If a woman would have started this thread it would be about some silly thing young newlywed men do – or don’t!!
There is something about a person marrying the boy/girl that is meant to be their spouse. So you keep your mouth shut… respect him anyway! Don’t they say that there are adjustments to make when you get married. This is one I guess. I am a married woman who gets up earlier or the same time as my husband..
To tell you the truth it bothered me at the begining.. than I thought about how he has to concentrate all day and a few extra minutes mean alot!
Is it possible that the “It’s time for Minyan!” of the newlywed, is the same as the “Take a sweater!” of the mother of a bochur ?? Maybe it’s simply an expression of love and concern and wanting to give and to be needed.
Misdirected? Maybe. But perhaps it would be helpful (read: more conducive to Shalom Bayit), were the newlywed husbands to view it in this way….
sjs c’mon, there a millions of yidden all over, what makes you decide you know who he is and where he’s from??? California is also really big… and his posts sound a lot more like an idealistic teenager than anyone in their 20’s. As far as i know , most people in their 20’s have already overcome that “extreme idealistic” stage. They are just a bit more level headed at that age. no?
He has previously said he is in college.
Maybe but there were a few things that clicked together. Don’t remember exactly what.
I’m wondering if he mentioned Monsey at some point maybe? His family moved to monsey for a few years which was where I met him.
And yes, he has said he is in college.
If the young mans roomates in yeshiva also reminded him when it was time for davening or seder, he wouldnt mind if his new roomate did the same. If they did not, it would essentially be the only difference to his pre and post married life. Many people dont react very well to change.
I agree with apushitayid. Just as a young wife has to take her job and making the parnasah seriously so does the Kolel yungerman have to take his job seriously and that means zerizus in going to minyan on time and in learning. No one is deducting pay from him for coming late and he is not at risk for losing his job if he slacks off. But he is at risk of losing his wife’s respect and admiration. He is also at risk for gaining his wife’s resentment for having to work hard to support him when he is not working equally as hard to deserve that support.
So if a wife is taking her job as “Ezer K’negdo seriously and finds that she needs to remind him or push him, then there must be a good reason for it. A husband who shows his commitment to his davening and learning by going on time or even early, who comes home exited about his shiur and wants to share a good vort, shows a wife that he doesn’t need a mashgiach watching over his time. A husband who asks his wife if she needs his help and specifically tells her he can run errands before or after zmanei tefillah or davening shows his wife that she does not have to be on top of him. In addition, such a husband does not mind when his wife reminds him of the time. Aderabah he appreciates that she is helping him do what is important to him.
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