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The Navi is such a great thing….How come yeshivahs dont spend time teaching navi? why is gemara more important then nach?? All these girls that come back from seminary know navi cold…why not Bauchurim??
A great part of shas deals with navi,and who said bachurim are exempt from learning navi. There is a Tosfos which discusses this issue.
Where is this tosafos?
Seminary girls learn nach because they aren’t able to understand gemara.
For example, you think that learning nach is more important than learning gemara.
Someone once asked this question to a Rosh Yeshiva of mine.
On the spot he replied, “Because we are a non-prophet organization…”
And guess which mod just figured out what yeshiva you went to.
Women learn nach because a couple of women were neviim, but no women were amoraim. So it makes them feel good.
Men learn gemara because Hashem wants us to. It’s the old avodas Hashem argument.
popa – saying that the reason girls learn navi is that they dont understand gemara is completely false. There are many reasons why women dont learn gemara but not being able to understand it is not one of the reasons.
Mr. Mod – lol 🙂 I guess it’s a small world.
Here’s the Tosafos everyone is talking about (Sanhedrin 24a):
????? ????? ?????? ???’. ???? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? (???? ?”? ?? ??.) ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??”?
coreytothecup
You are correct Bachurim should spend time learning Nach and many Bachurim do so during their free time. However it is not part of the regular curriculum although some Yeshivas do teach parts of it in mesivta (high-school).
There is a lot to learn and the Yeshiva day doesnt have enough hours in it to fit it all in.
ayitayningwut
“Because we are a non-prophet organization…”
We are the only religion that had real prophets, so I dont get his line. Maybe you can explain?
They learn Navi because they don’t have anything better to learn. I would guess that’s sufficient reason…
Thanks yitay for posting the Tosfos you beat me to it.
The Translation of the Tosfos is as follows: Rabbeinu Tam explains that the gemara we have now exempts us from what it says in gemara avoda zara 19 that one should split their years(see rashi there as to what this means ) into three,one third with mikra, one third with mishna and one third with shas.
besides, I happen to know more navi than any seminary girl I’ve ever met, mostly on account of the haftoras. And some general curiosity.
(Do you sit during leining and see if you can remember the weeks haftorah? Last week I was trying, and I came up with ????? ??? ???, but then I thought that was for vayigash, so I couldn’t think of it. But I was really correct the first time. In any event, this coming week is ??????- I think- so that means the haftorah is ??? ?? ??? ?????. And no I didn’t look it up.)
Why do only seminary girls get to learn navi? Because most of the experts in navi today are women. Would you have a woman teaching navi to our frume yeshiva bochrim as Nachama Leibowitz used to do years ago? It doesn’t pas.
The explanation I heard was that extensive Old Testament study and analysis is one of the things that led to the Haskalah and the like back in Europe.
So it’s been the Yeshivish modus operandi to give it a precursory glance then move on to hardcore Gemarah Study
The other cop out excuse I heard was that “you are supposed to have it mastered by grade school”
They ‘teach’ Gemara in Yeshiva so that Bochurim should be able to learn it when they get older. Navi is something that they will be able learn, anyhow. They learn Navi with girls for the Hashkafa it teaches and to appriciate Torah and to give a sense of what Yiddishkeit is. Also, they will not learn it on their own.
WIY –
He wasn’t talking about the religion, he was talking about why it isn’t in the yeshiva’s curriculum. The yeshiva is a non-profit organization. He was making a joke.
cleverjewishpun –
The explanation I heard was that extensive Old Testament study and analysis is one of the things that led to the Haskalah and the like back in Europe.
This is not a cop out. It’s actually a Rashi in Berachos 28b:
??????? – ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????
I don’t know why girls should be better though.
OneOfMany –
What’s wrong with calculus?
girls cannot learn gemara. i heard the most awesomest line from a rov in yerushalayim who was explaining why shana rishona guys shouldnt try to tell over their chabura to their wives.
Husband “the gemara in gittin daf..says, a person was stuck in a pit and called out to give his wife a get etc,”
Wife “Why didnt someone just pull him out of the pit?! thats what women are for-to help out the dumb guys standing around analyzing bla bla bla….”
As funny as it sounds, go try it on your wife, mine stuck to the script dead on. its hilarious.
yita: That is a great line!
It is a shame that boys dont learn navi, or chumash either for the most part, to the same degree that all girls, not just seminary, do. There has been a movement however towards teaching boys more nach from as young as 4th grade – the story line if not inside which is better than nothing!
Another subject in which the boys suffer a major handicap is Jewish history, aka “Historia.” Your average Bais Yaakov high school girl can rattle off lists of tannaim, amoraim, etc. in chrnological order (even if they can’t do it down the line.) The reason why this is even more of a handicap than lack of Navi is that these names are all over the gemara and they should know who came first – a gaon cant argue with an amora, and an amora cant argue with a tana. (I hope I got that order right, its been a while 😉 )
Haha
yitayningwut: According to some men, we are too stupid for that.
heimishe mom: Don’t worry about that. Any guy can tell you exactly who is a tanna, or amora, or gaon, or rishon. We can even tell you who is usually cited as an amora but is allowed to argue with a tanna.
For some reason people never heard or know who the savoraim were.
Woa, ok, I learnt since 4th(?) grade navi in a by school… haha, not only seminary girls
“Why do ONLY seminary girls get to learn navi?”
***
Not ONLY seminary girls. Young boys in yeshiva learn it too.
My haha was to Toi. Heimishe Mom, as Popa said, I think that most guys don’t have that problem, at least once they’ve been through a couple of years in yeshiva.
OneOfMany –
You should tell those men to look at the Yerushalmi in the beginning of Pei’ah:
??? ???? ??? ?’ ????? – ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??
The Gemara is saying that “Greek Wisdom” (which I assume refers to mathematics, the sciences, etc) is an “article of jewelry” for a woman, and therefore one may have his daughters study it (as opposed to himself, as it can possibly be a question of bitul Torah). Kind of irrelevant if women are to stupid to understand it.
Ummm, in my highschool we learned navi every single year. It wasn’t only my seminary years that I learned it. It happens to be I was very prepared for seminary since I did learn it already but there were many more medrashim that we learned that hadn’t been discussed in highschool.
yitayningwut – A very choshuv principal of mine once said that to me (pretty much in that lashon, too). Still irks me to this day.
Anyway, what does the gemarah mean, exactly? Is it better for a woman to learn science (over torah)?
I agree that most girls don’t need to learn all the meforshim, but now that I’m no longer in school and would like to learn some navi on my own, I’m grateful I’m able to open a navi to whatever perek I want and learn it as in depth as I choose to. Chumash and navi were my favorite subjects in school, so it wasn’t hard for me, but what works for one girl doesn’t work for the next one. Schools need to recognize that.
Start doing kiruv on a college campus, you will be proficient in many sifrei NACH before long just to keep ahead of the evangelicals and jews for j missionaries who are going after yiddishe neshamos.
I became quite proficient in sefer tehillim, yeshaya, yirmiya and much of tri asar after meeting a messianic jew on a business trip more than 15 years ago.
OneOfMany –
You mean a principal told you that girls are to stupid? That’s sad. Pretty ignorant too. How would he explain the fact that 60 percent of Bachelor’s Degrees currently go to women? And so on.
As for your question. I don’t want to get involved in the whole debate right now regarding the status of women with regard to studying Torah. But everyone agrees that women do not have the same obligation of Torah study as men, as the Gemara derives their exemption in Kiddushin 29b. If math and science are “like jewelry” for a woman, and you are exempt from learning Torah anyway, then why not learn the math and science? You can learn Torah also, but there is no reason to put so much emphasis on it, as if it needs to be the basis of the entire curriculum. Personally I think that the reason they are teaching girls Nach and all is simply because they got this idea that girls have to learn all day just like guys (which, by the way, I don’t fully agree with either), but they feel that girls shouldn’t learn Gemara, so what will they learn? Nach is the next choice! Which is stupid. Girls don’t need to learn all day. They should be taught Halacha and the basics and if they want to learn more, they should have the option, but otherwise they should be given the opportunity if not the push to grow academically in other subjects such as advanced math and the sciences etc. Anyway I got a bit carried away.
For those who would like to learn Nach did you know the OU has a program that finishes Navi every 2 and a half years.The 3rd cycle starts thursday
we dont mean stupid. we mean that the analytical reasoning that one needs to learn gemara is extremely difficult for women. not that theyre dumb. ok fine, not really dumb.
Toi –
I was referring to math.
Toi – If women really weren’t capable of analytical reasoning, they wouldn’t be able to manage advanced mathematics either. I guess I am a paradox, then…
yitayningwut – You seem to be saying (correct me if I’ve misinterpreted) that since women don’t have a chiyuv in talmud torah, etc., their knowledge of torah can be technically be regarded as equivalent in value to their knowledge of other disciples. I don’t agree with that. Isn’t there intrinsic value in learning torah, regardless of its role in the scheme of things?
And then there’s a logistical snag – girls that are content with learning the “basics” usually are really not interested in (or capable of) expanding their secular knowledge. The ones that are capable usually want the utmost in limudei kodesh too.
And the principal thing really wasn’t that bad as I made it out to be. It was regarding a request for an advanced physics class, and I think he was just trying to say that we wouldn’t be able to handle the theory. He did phrase it very offensively, though. Plus, I don’t think it’s right to just throw out that generalization regarding specific cases.
QB +1
In regard to the OP’s concern, I don’t think that gemara is more important than tanach, but I do think that learning gemara can help develop a student’s analytical skills more than learning tanach can. Perhaps that is why gemara is such a major focus for teenage students. But that in no way diminishes the importance of learning tanach, which I think should be done in every school.
OneOfMany –
Isn’t there intrinsic value in learning torah, regardless of its role in the scheme of things?
Perhaps, but it shouldn’t be pushed. Any “advanced Torah course” should be an elective rather than a required course.
The ones that are capable usually want the utmost in limudei kodesh too.
Unless guys and girls are very different, I don’t think you are right, and if it seems that way, maybe it’s simply a you-want-it-because-you-can’t-have-it motivation that’s behind it. In other words if you would change the system and make girls learn just as much as guys, they would have less of an interest. Just my conjecture.
I agree with you that it isn’t right to generalize. It’s ignorant and stupid and your principal never should have told you that. And I don’t know the details, but perhaps a limud z’chus – It could be he thought (clearly, mistakenly) that you personally could not handle such a course, and in his mind he believed that it would soften the blow to make a general comment about women than about your specific shortcomings, because in this way he is saying “don’t worry, you are normal.” Which clearly was the wrong thing to say, but I’m just saying that perhaps he didn’t mean to imply it the way you took it.
I’m getting a bit carried away again, but the on the topic of judging someones words in a favorable context, the Rambam writes:
“Should he notice any opinions with which he does not agree, let him endeavour to find a suitable explanation, even if it seem far-fetched, in order that he may judge me charitably. Such a duty we owe to every one. We owe it especially to our scholars and theologians, who endeavour to teach us what is the truth according to the best of their ability.”
Anyway.
By the way, I stated on another thread today that the Rambam’s opinion* is that the natural sciences are not just a complement to Torah, they are Torah. (In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that the Vilna Ga’on vehemently disagreed.) So by studying advanced physics you would be shteiging in limud haTorah according to the Rambam anyway.
*See, for example, his comments at the end of the fourth chapter in Hilchos Yesodei haTorah.
There is an over emphasis on Tanach in girls schools because being able to write a 77 page essay comparing and contrasting the understanding of the Ralbag, Rashi and Sforno in sefer yirmiyahu will give one the ability to be a better wife and mother. Guys don’t have a need to be a better wife and mother, hence, no emphasis on Tanach in yeshivos.
yitayningwut:
Unless guys and girls are very different, I don’t think you are right, and if it seems that way, maybe it’s simply a you-want-it-because-you-can’t-have-it motivation that’s behind it. In other words if you would change the system and make girls learn just as much as guys, they would have less of an interest. Just my conjecture.
Sheichus difference? Not sure what you are getting at. My point is this: there are people who like to learn and people who don’t. Girls who aren’t interested in learning torah most likely aren’t dying to learn advanced maths. Girls who like learning advanced maths will most likely also want to learn torah. Teaching the basics in halacha etc. and pushing secular subjects more won’t satisfy EITHER group.
It could be he thought (clearly, mistakenly) that you personally could not handle such a course, and in his mind he believed that it would soften the blow to make a general comment about women than about your specific shortcomings, because in this way he is saying “don’t worry, you are normal.”
I don’t think that’s what my principal meant, but good point. And I guess it’s all for the best anyhow. I still got to learn it later. 🙂
*See, for example, his comments at the end of the fourth chapter in Hilchos Yesodei haTorah.
Lol – aren’t you supposed to be referring me to math textbooks…
Yitay, the term “???? ?????” is in a grammatical form called
“??????”. Thus, it means “the wisdom of Greek”. From the Gemara and Rashi it seems that it was a form a rhetoric. It may have referred to the methods of the Sophists, who were accused of deception – hence the English word “sophistry”.
BTW, there is a joke about a bachur who finds a Tanach in hte bet midrash. He shows it to his chevruta and says “Look! Someone collected all of the pesukim in Shas into one book.”
Oh, and since nobody was impressed with my haftara knowledge yet, I will show off some more.
Next week’s is parshas ????, so it clearly we will do haftara from ????? ???? ??? ???.
The next week is ?????, and I can’t remember it right now. But, the next week is ????, which is easy ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????.
Seriously, I know more nach than the whole BJJ put together. Plus half of Haddar (which half?).
He shows it to his chevruta and says “Look! Someone collected all of the pesukim in Shas into one book.”
It’s a cute joke, but the point is true. I know about yermiya buying the field, because the gemara in gittin talks about it regarding the dinim of shtarros. (And maybe also because of the story with Ponovezh). We know about yael and sisra because of the tosfos in kesubos. I know about pilegech begivah because of the gemara in gittin (???? ??? ??).
OneOfMany –
Sheichus difference?
What I meant was that guys are not that way. Plenty of guys enjoy learning other stuff more. Some people’s heads are geared to the effect that they have a lot more potential in applied mathematics than in learning, and therefore they enjoy it more. I was just speculating as to why it may seem that all girls who like to learn, enjoy Torah the most.
Lol – aren’t you supposed to be referring me to math textbooks…
I didn’t really want to get into this, but as a general rule I have no objection to a girl learning, especially if it has any relevance to women (i.e. any sugya in shas that deals with anything other than a time bound mitzva). It just seems to me that the whole learning navi thing is in order to fill up the day with Torah because, after all, a girl can’t learn Gemara (…), and to that I object, because I don’t think the curriculum needs to be filled up with Torah so much. Girls should learn as much as they have to know in order to maintain an observant lifestyle, and past that they should have the choice whether to further their studies in Torah or physics etc.
Avi K –
I did not know that, thank you. I have always been under the impression that there were multiple things under the heading ???? ?????? because sometimes the Gemara seems to frown upon it inherently and sometimes just from a bitul Torah standpoint. I just think the statement of the Yerushalmi in context seems to imply something other than sophistry, but I may be wrong.
And lol 🙂
“Look! Someone collected all of the pesukim in Shas into one book.”
If I’m not mistaken, the Sasregener Rebbe Shlita put together such a sefer. He explains the passuk so it makes some sense why the gemara quoted where it does.
QB- 1. chill out.
2.Its called Yeshiva world. so bounce.
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