Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › WHY DO LITVOCKS ALWAYS SAY TACHNUN??
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November 4, 2024 8:41 am at 8:41 am #2329264Neville Chaimberlin Lo MesParticipant
“How is the fact that someone in Baghdad did not say tachanun affected what happened in Vilna?”
I didn’t say it did (although, as a side point, I might contend that it is relevant). The poster was implying that the only reason not to say tachanun is if you’re “looking for excuses” not to.“Chassidim changed minhagim of their communities, not litvakim.”
This is largely a fallacy, but one with so much traction that it would be hard to contend. At the very least, the second clause is easily debatable: how could any of minhag lita that is based on the Gra exist before the Gra? That means they at least changed those minhagim. In any case, I’m not defending skipping tachanun for a Rebbe’s Yahrzeit or anything like that; I just don’t think tachanun in general is as big of a deal and Litvaks like to pretend. Bare in mind, many if not most Litvish yeshivos skip korbanos every single day. We all have our weaknesses.November 4, 2024 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2329596Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant> Bare in mind
Can we not have pornography on this site?! Even in mind
November 5, 2024 10:59 am at 10:59 am #2329622Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant> how could any of minhag lita that is based on the Gra exist before the Gra?
How is debatable that Chassidim changed minhagim – whether in Lita or other places also? I don’t think any chassidim disagree with. Community separation went beyond davening – separate kehillot and shehita, leading to decrease in community income from taxes on meat and candles, etc.
I am not learned enough to evaluate how Gra’s changes relate to Chassidut. I’ve read that some of the R Chaim Volozhiner work is a response to chassidut, and I think mussar might be influenced also, but do not about the Gra.
November 5, 2024 11:00 am at 11:00 am #2329648Neville Chaimberlin Lo MesParticipantUm, wut?
November 6, 2024 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2329956GadolhadorahParticipant“Chassidim don’t have a real Mesorah, because it only dates back a few hundred years….”
How many hundreds of years does it take to officially “have a real Mesorah” ? I’ve always viewed the term a process through which minhagim are transmitted from one generation to the next
November 6, 2024 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2330171ZSKParticipant“I get it, you want to bash on Chassidim for not saying tachanun enough, but if you live in a glass house, don’t throw stones. It’s a reshus, and saying it when you shouldn’t might be worse than the inverse.”
Bash? No. Criticize? Yes. Let’s just say that if I wanted to “bash” Chassidim, I wouldn’t start with not saying Tachanun.
November 7, 2024 9:58 am at 9:58 am #2330413DaMosheParticipantGadolhadorah: one can’t simply start a new mesorah. They were passed down from parent to child and Rebbe to student, and go all the way back to Moshe Rabbeinu. The reason some groups have different ways of doing things can be explained in various ways:
– There are opinions that each shevet had it’s own mehalech – maybe the different minhagim now are based on those?
– Sometimes different students could understand their Rebbe in different ways, and then there was a difference in how they practiced.Chassidus did not have a mesorah. The Besht claimed that he ascended to Heaven, and Achiyah haShiloni taught it to him. There were many radical changes to traditional Judaism in the Besht’s teachings.
November 7, 2024 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2330528Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantGadol > How many hundreds of years does it take to officially “have a real Mesorah” ?
A good question. 3 generations? We have examples when innovations were introduced openly – writing down Torah she b’alpe, beis knesses after beis hamikdash, and it has to be acknowledged as such.
Reminds of a story of a teenager in Ashdod who left his kibutznik father and stayed in a yeshiva. When the father accused the Rav that he encourages the son not to follow customs of his father, the Rav responded: the son is changing the ways of the father, same way the father changed the way of the grandfather – so he is following his father’s custom.
November 7, 2024 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2330529Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant> Bash? No.
Are we going to have linux flavor wars now!?
November 10, 2024 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2330913Neville Chaimberlin Lo MesParticipant“How is debatable that Chassidim changed minhagim – whether in Lita or other places also? I don’t think any chassidim disagree with.”
Because many things considered “Chassidish minhagim” are actually examples of Chassidim following the Rema and Ashkenazi rishonim better than their Litvish counterparts (anything relating to shkiah, for example). Many other examples are simply reflective of differences between central European minhag (often following the Chasam Sofer) and eastern European, still nothing to do with Chassidus in a hashkafic sense. Many of the nusach differences are likely a result of this rather than “making stuff up” as uninformed people like to claim. Jews in Europe outside of Lita had a mesora. The fact that they now happen to be associated with Chassidus does not invalidate this mesora.The cases where Chassidim did actually make a change (eg. the placement of baruch sheamar or not wrapping tefillin on chol hamoed), you are correct that they admit to the change, unlike their Litvish counterparts who erroneously claim to be following an unaltered mesora. As far as who has made more changes statistically speaking, I’m not sure, but it’s definitely not pashut.
November 11, 2024 8:24 am at 8:24 am #2331375Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantto illuminate the discussion above:
Rabbi Avi Shafran wrote an article in Jewish Observer about Mendelssohn where he says, exactly as above,> fact that many [frum] people have a visceral, automatic reaction to the name Mendelssohn – for whatever reason.
In 2010 interview, he describes negative reaction from multiple members of Moetses, such as
> In the Novominsker’s response, he wrote that the thing that the article may have accidentally obfuscated was that Mendelssohn’s philosophy is a synthesis, and a synthesis is bad. We can’t have a synthesis, it’s evil, it’s a total perversion of Torah… .. of Torah and secular studies. He then notes that Rav Hirsch’s philosophy is not a synthesis, and that’s why Rav Hirsch is differentR Shafran then explains, in a view similar to mine, that he is not holding Mendelssohn as a halachik authority, but as a Jew who help certain opinions:
> I think that Mendelssohn definitely embraced secular culture more, but he wasn’t a rabbi. In other words, I wasn’t extolling him as a Torah authority. I don’t think the Novominsker Rebbe was really addressing what I was addressing. I wasn’t putting Mendelssohn up as someone to emulate. I made very clear, he wasn’t a rabbi at all, he was a philosopher. He was, you know, his life was in the salons, not in the Beis Midrash. He made no claim otherwise! I was simply saying that as a Jew, we have a totally warped picture of who he was. He wasn’t a freethinking rejector of halacha, who ate treife meat privately. In Boro Park, if you ask them to act out Mendelssohn’s life in private, you know, they’d say: You take a piece of pork, be mechalel shabbos. He was meticulously observant! But [in my view,] he had some hashkafic fine points that didn’t click.
November 11, 2024 8:24 am at 8:24 am #2331377Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantNeville, you seem to be separating two trends:
1) chassidim directly changing ashkenazi mesora based on sefardi, etc
ok, so we all agree on these
2) differences between central/southern european minhagim with Litvishe.
maybe. why these became the issue? it is either increased contact (Austro-Hungarian empire?) or, maybe more likely, chassidic influence in previously litvishe areas bringing those minhagim in. -
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