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“BTW I don’t buy your argument vis-a-vis the Tosafos in Yevamos. If that Tosafos held that a woman could be a dayan, it would have answered that for Devorah because it is the simplest teretz.”
Perhaps Tosafos’s starting point was that a woman cannot be a dayan and he is hesitant to change that position. If you only have the kashya from Devorah, you can easily answer that Devorah was different and keep to the original position. In other words Tosafos would only entertain the notion of a woman being a dayan when faced with the question from the drasha. Now the question is if in order to answer the other question Tosafos would say that a woman can be a dayan, would he then retract his chiluk of Devorah? I don’t think so – see the lashon of the Tosafos in Bava Kamma. It sounds to me as if he is saying that granted a woman can be a dayan as we see from the drasha, lemaaseh there is no proof from Devorah because Devorah might be different. However, I agree that the Tosafos in Yevamos definitely gives off the impression that a woman cannot be a dayan, and it is somewhat puzzling that he doesn’t address the question from the drasha.
The ???? ????? writes:
????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??”?
Also, the Beis Yosef when explaining why Devorah was different, gives an additional answer – ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? and R’ Avraham Azulai in his hagahos to the Levush says ?? ??? ????? ????? without even mentioning the ?????.
See also Shu”t Binyan Av 1:65
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52140&st=&pgnum=297
??”? ??????? ????? ??? ?’ ???? ??:
????? ?”? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ??? ???”? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ??”? ??”? ??’ ?’ ?”? ???? ????????? ?????’ ?”? ?? ?”? ?”? ?”? ????’ ????? ???? ???’ ??”? ?? ??? ???”? [???? ??????? ?”? ????? ??”? ?”? ???”? ??”? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ??”?] ???’ ???”? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ????
Would anyone object if instead of giving a woman semicha they gave her a certificate which says “(insert name) has demonstrated a proficient understanding of the laws of (insert category e.g. shabbos, niddah etc.)”? If yes then why? I don’t see how the conservative/reform argument could apply in such a situation. If they wouldn’t object then great. Now this may not have any relevance to people/institutions that specifically want to get women into equivalent positions as those of men, but for an individual woman this should be a fine arrangement.
Would you object if I gave a certificate which says “(insert name) has demonstrated a proficient understanding of the laws of (insert category e.g. shabbos, niddah etc.)” to a bunch of my friends and family?
Lior:
I’m not sure what your point is. Care to clarify?
My point is to question the value of your idea. What is to stop anyone from issuing the type of certificate you suggest to anyone else they fancy, qualified or not, based on whatever criteria or lack thereof they self-establish?
The same thing which is stopping anyone from issuing semicha to anyone else they fancy, qualified or not, based on whatever criteria or lack thereof they self-establish. I.e. nothing. Yet how many stories have you heard of charlatans issuing Semicha? Obviously people only take a semicha seriously if it comes from a reputable source. The same would be with a certificate.
Answer to the OP:
Because they’re too busy doing what they’re supposed to be doing.
“Answer to the OP:
Because they’re too busy doing what they’re supposed to be doing.”
If I may engage in some pilpul over here:
R’ Yisrael Salanter (in Iggeres 27) writes that there are two parts to learning Torah – limud hatorah and yedias hatorah. Limud Hatorah is simply to learn any part of Torah whenever possible. Yedias Hatorah is that you have to know Torah which includes knowing the halachic conclusions and mastering the methodology by which they are reached. Seemingly, a woman’s chiyuv of yedias hatorah in topics that apply to women should be identical to a man’s chiyuv. They both have to know how to properly observe the Torah. Now R’ Salanter writes that one can be mevatel limud hatorah in order to further the goal of yedias hatorah. So a woman should also be able to be mevatel her other responsibilities in order to further the goal of yedias hatorah. If you say that she doesn’t need to know because she can always ask someone, you can say the same thing about a man.
However, R’ Salanter explains that the chiyuv of yedias hatorah is based on “V’shinantum L’vanecha”. Therefore it is possible that we we would darshen ???? ??? ??? (the Gemara only makes this derasha by ?????? ???? ?? ?????), and it would come out that a woman doesn’t have a chiyuv to know any Torah – she just has to be able to observe it properly and knowing Torah would be a hechsher mitzvah so to speak, whereas a man aould have a specific chiyuv to know Torah independent of enabling him to observe it. And therefore the chiyuv to know Torah could override a man’s chiyuv to learn Torah but a woman wouldn’t have such a chiyuv to override her other responsibilities. (It could also be that limud hatorah is an exception in that any mitzvah can be docheh it, but than again I don’t think that the responsibilities that a woman would be “neglecting” by pursuing advanced learning would be an actual “chiyuv” in the first place.)
PAA: You stole that T’shuvah from the Beis HaLevi, no? Siman 6, maybe?
It is siman 6. I didn’t steal it. I don’t think he is saying quite what I said. He doesn’t seem to be working within the split between limud hatorah and yedias hatorah. But it is definitely a similar idea. But it doesn’t make too much sense – the Bais Halevi himself says that a woman has no chiyuv whatsoever to learn things that don’t apply to her so why would a man have such a chiyuv (mita’am yedias hatorah; obviously he would have a chiyuv of limud hatorah).
Sefer Hachinuch 77:
?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? (?)??? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??????
The Sefer Hachinuch clearly acknowledges that if the people are mekabel her then she can be a dayan and he also acknowledges that there are those who hold that a woman can stam be a dayan. Granted the Birchei Yosef (Choshen Mishpat 7:11) writes ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???”? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???????.
Anyway the Birchei Yosef then says ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ??”? ?????? ??????? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???’ ?”? which should allow for semicha if not for dayanus.
“And therefore the chiyuv to know Torah could override a man’s chiyuv to learn Torah”
The chiyuv to know Torah combined with the fact that knowing Torah enables one to observe the Torah.
Another reason to give women semicha:
Igros Moshe O.C. 1:40:
??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????
??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?”? ??????
PAA: The vast majority of mainstream Frum Jews, even most Litvish Chareidim and some Chassidim, are okay with women learning on their own and even giving Hora’ah at times. Most are okay with Yoatzot and don’t protest it, even if they won’t go near them themselves. What people are against is an institutionalized “Smicha” that has its basis in women being “equal” to men. (I put the word equal in quotes because their definition of equal is not a real equality.)
Ok so what about institutionalized semicha which doesn’t have it’s basis in being equal to men? Or even not institutionalized? A learned woman should be able to make an appointment with a granter of semicha – one who has nothing to do with equality – and be tested and be certified.
Halacha Pesuka Choshen Mishpat 7:4:
????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????
benignuman: The verbiage you suggest seemingly leaves the door open to women receiving smicha and becoming rabbis.
PAA: I’m not sure why you’d cite Rav Moshe to try to make your case. Rav Moshe said women cannot don a talis, even though m’ikur hadin they are not prohibited, because the motivation is feminism. If that weren’t the case here with becoming a rabbi/getting smicha, why would they be seeking such a position after thousands of years where it didn’t exist?
The case that I’m making from R’ Moshe has nothing to do with feminism. There is a difference between having semicha and being a Rabbi. R’ Riskin ordained women but he didn’t make them Rabbis; he just gave them a heter hora’ah. I haven’t heard of backlash coming anywhere near what R’ Weiss got. Because it seems that R’ Weiss is pushing for equality whereas R’ Riskin is pushing to certify learned women to answer halachic questions. I am talking about a R’ Riskin style semicha not a R’ Weiss style semicha. I’m not here to push feminist equality (maybe some other time I will). I am pointing out that I don’t see any halachic objections to certifying women as knowledgeable in halacha. Then I brought in R’ Moshe to show that there would be an important benefit for women to ask their questions to women as opposed to men.
Does anyone know which is the best place to buy kugel in Williamsburg? I like kugel a lot. How about tzibbilis kugel? Do they sell that also?
Does anyone know why the shaatnez checking place is in Williamsburg? Isn’t that like a yuppy neighborhood where yuppies from manhattan who are not yuppish enough to live in manhattan, live?
Also, why are the wedding halls in Williamsburg?
Why do people need to get married in a wedding hall? I’ve read the entire first mishna in kiddushin and it says nothing about wedding halls. It says that you can marry a woman on three roads: The silver road, the paper road, and the coming road. I assume the silver road means you are on your way to being rich, and the paper road means you are on your way to being learned. But what does the coming road mean? It is the road for people who are already coming back. It means you can marry a woman when you are old and she thinks you will die and leave her all your stuff. Is that how you all read it?
Does anyone know why we eat honey on rosh hashana? Some yeshiva or another sent me some honey.
How much do you think it costs to buy a house on your own island? If you have a house on your own island, like, why should anyone care what you do on it? Like lets say you just want to play world of warcraft all day.
Does anyone know what this thread is about? Becasue I thought it was about why women aren’t allowed to go to modernishes simcha’s, like a simchat bat, or yom haatzmauut.
Once you give smicha what’s to stop them from calling themselves and being rabbis any less than a male with smicha is entitled to call himself and be a rabbi? I don’t know what backlash R’ Riskin got on this issue but he certainly got a lot of backlash, to put it nicely, when he called the xtian deity a model rabbi and said we need to resurrect g-d.
Lior: Maybe because for thousands of years women never really had the time and opportunity to do such things and now they do? There are a lot more differences in the world between then and now than just feminism.
Lior:
It depends what you mean by “Rabbi”. If you are already granting them heter hora’ah then the title of Rabbi is purely semantics. What I am referring to and what R’ Riskin wanted to avoid is a woman having an official Rabbinic position e.g being the Rabbi of a shul. In that case there might be actual halachic considerations which would prevent it. So if someone or some group thinks there are halachic obstacles to having a woman serve as the Rabbi of a shul then let them say that it is assur for a woman to be a rabbi of a shul. They don’t need to make a gezeira on semicha atu being a rabbi of a shul.
PAA: If someone is granted smicha they by definition are entitled to call themselves and/or act as a rabbi. So women with smicha are women rabbis. And are entitled to do what men rabbis can do by virtue of their being a rabbi.
Sam: Shouldn’t those changes you speak of allow women today to be judges and witnesses? I would tend to think most women would sooner rather be able to be a witness than to be a rabbi.
Popa, more than pizza? They have the name Yerushalayim in common, you know.
Because Lee Ave. is in Williamsburg. The people who check their suits for shaatnez tend to be kugel eaters (not flying lukshen, AFAIK).
Because they serve kugel for simchas chosson v’kallah.
They used to get married in the future home, but with housing prices the way they are… No.
How big of a house? Where is the island?
Yes, apparently you were wrong.
Lior: We have a Drashah (that utilizes a societal/sociological truth) that precludes women from being witnesses. No one today can change a Drashah. Maybe Bimos HaMashiach we will Darshan that Passuk differently or apply its sociological implications differently(or society will change back). I would expect that, when we once again have a Beis Din HaGadol, lots of things will respond to societal changes that have occured over the past 1500 years. But for now, an Ishah is Passul L’eidus.
But we don’t have any Halachic reasoning inherently precluding a woman from getting a Heter Hora’ah. That’s an important difference.
After techiyas hameisim will society be like the 21st century or like the earlier times that all those who returned to life came from?
Lior: I don’t know. Presumably we will keep much of our technology, which will mean that everyone (more so women) will have much more time for learning Torah than they did in ancient times. I also don’t think we will revert to the ancient monetary systems. Some things will change societally and some will stay the same. And we will have a Beis Din to apply when the societal changes affect Dinim.
“PAA: If someone is granted smicha they by definition are entitled to call themselves and/or act as a rabbi. So women with smicha are women rabbis. And are entitled to do what men rabbis can do by virtue of their being a rabbi.”
There isn’t anything that you can do specifically because you have the title of “Rabbi”. There are various things that Rabbis do and some of them have no requirements, some of them have requirements that would only allow certain Rabbis to do them, and some are things that perhaps women cannot do. But that has nothing to do with certifying women as being knowledgeable in Yoreh Deah.
Nevertheless, once you give “smicha” by definition they can call themselves rabbis and many will act as such and take positions as such with the rabbinic ordination (smicha) legitimizing it.
If you would come out with a statement that it is assur to ordain women and you expect people to follow it then for the same price you can come out with a statement that is limited to what is actually assur and expect them to follow it. You don’t have to make gezeiros. Why don’t we actually say that you can’t give semicha to a man because once he has semicha he might do gittin and kiddushin despite not being knowledgeable in those areas. ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????. We don’t just invent gezeiros like that. And besides, if I were to grant that we would make such a gezeira then it should be noted as a gezeira not as “assur”.
So be forthright and clear that you’re advocating for Woman Rabbis. That’s what smicha is. Writing “There is a difference between having semicha and being a Rabbi” is simply muddying what you’re trying to accomplish. Someone with Rabbinic Ordination (smicha) is a Rabbi.
Additionally, women cannot sit on a beis din and a heter hora’ah is considered a license to do so. So a heter hora’ah doesn’t work for that reason as well. Furthermore, we should not deplete the title of Rav from its meaning of the way it has been understood throughout the doros. Moreso, advanced learning of Torah Shebaal Peh is forbidden for women so they cannot be Torah teachers in the full sense. And finally, there is an issue of tznius with women in public leadership positions (or speaking publicly in front of large gatherings of men).
I am not advocating that there should be women Rabbis. What I am advocating for is that if there are women who are motivated to learn Torah on a high level, then they should be able to be certified to answer someone halachic question. What happens after that is not my concern. If a person or a group feels that certain future steps are assur then let them say so and provide cogent halachic reasoning and there shouldn’t be any problem. At the very least, if you will not allow this certification, at least explain that it is not because it is halachically assur but as a gezeira to prevent future violations of halacha. Unless you actually believe that there is a halachic issue with certifying women as knowledgeable in halacha. If so, please read the mekoros posted here and respond accordingly.
As to the issue of advanced learning of Torah Sheba’al Peh, this has been discussed in many other threads, most recently http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-are-some-people-so-smart
Also, any sources mentioned here about women “paskening” would seem to take for granted that they are permitted to attain the requisite Torah knowledge to “pasken”.
As to the issue of public leadership positions, this has nothing to do with what I’m saying. If you (when I say you I don’t mean specifically YOU; I mean people in general) think that it’s problematic then come out and say that it is assur for a woman to have a public leadership position. There are women who speak publicly who don’t have semicha. These are two unrelated issues.
“I am not advocating that there should be women Rabbis.”
If you advocate smicha (Rabbinic Ordination) for women then by definition you advocate women rabbis. (Not you specifically, but someone advocating such.) Rabbinic ordination = rabbi.
What’s wrong with a yoetzet to fit the bill of what you’re describing about being certified to answer halachic questions? You also didn’t address my above point that a heter hora’ah is considered a license to be a dayan. ??? ????? ????
I think a yoetzet halacha is limited to certain areas of halacha. If a yoetzet halacha is indeed certifiably knowledgeable in all areas of halacha that a MAN with semicha is then I am fine with that. I don’t care what name you want to call it. A Yoreh Yoreh Semicha is not a license to be a dayan. Maybe you could argue that we shouldn’t give women Yadin Yadin semicha because that would be more geared towards becoming a dayan as opposed to people asking halachic questions. But even there3 I’m not sure I would agree. There is much that can be done with knowledge of Choshen Mishpat outside of dayanus. As for whether a woman can actually be a dayan it is not so pashut. Granted the Shulchan Aruch rules that she is pasul, but I quoted a couple of daios in the rishonim who disagree, and I also quoted several sources that if they are mekabel her then she can be a dayan. But it’s very simple – if you hold that it is assur for a woman to be a dayan then put out a proclamation that it is assur for a woman to be a dayan. There is no need to make a proclamation that women can’t be certified as halachically knowledgeable. Anyone who listens to your proclamations will not have women dayanim and anyone who doesn’t listen also won’t listen if the proclamation is against certification.
“in all areas of halacha that a MAN with semicha is then I am fine with that”
Why this intense focus on her being able to mimick “ALL areas of halacha that a MAN”? If she is less knowledgeable than a man rabbi, say for example areas of halacha that are particular and applicable only to a man, you are still unsatisfied?
This is not reform
“for example areas of halacha that are particular and applicable only to a man”
Let’s take Y.U. semicha for example. The standard Yoreh Yoreh covers Eiruvin, Bishul, Niddah, aveilus, tevilas/hecsher keilim, the different areas of halacha pertaining to and delineating the process of making kosher food, geirus, mila, and inyanei kiddushin. The only part that is not applicable to women is mila (and perhaps some of the kiddushin stuff).
Eim Habanim Smeicha – Al tikra Smeicha, ela Smicha
‘if instead of giving a woman semicha they gave her a certificate which says “(insert name) has demonstrated a proficient understanding of the laws of (insert category e.g. shabbos, niddah etc.)”? ‘
That is pretty much what Rabba Sara Hurwitz’s semicah certificate says. You can find a copy of it on the internet if you have a good search engine.
” women cannot sit on a beis din and a heter hora’ah is considered a license to do so”
I’ve seen a lot of heter hora’ah (yoreh yoreh semicha) certificates. None of them say that. I would presume that the yadin yadin semicha certificate would say that, but I’ve never seen one.
Charlie: It’s implicit in the heter hora’ah.
“It’s implicit in the heter hora’ah.”
If it were implicit then there would be no need for yadin yadin semicha. Yoreh yoreh semicha does not cover the topics needed to be a dayan.
Lior: So if we made a Heter Hora’ah certificate that explicitly excludes it there are no more complaints?
How is it implicit in a heter hora’ah that the certified can serve on a beis din if the heter hora’ah does not certify them in Choshen Mishpat?
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