Home › Forums › Controversial Topics › Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos
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January 9, 2018 8:47 am at 8:47 am #1446099YossiiParticipant
Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers and no one stands against them, Is most chardim okay with that
January 9, 2018 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1446759Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant1. It is not true that there are many people doing this. In fact, I have never, ever witnessed such a thing, even though I live in Eretz Yisrael, and even though I used to live in a very Chareidi neighborhood, nor have any one of my many acquaintances ever once mentioned seeing such a thing. In fact, it is only in the Coffee Room that I ever even heard of such a thing.
The fact that something is reported on the news does not mean that it is a frequent occurrence. It just means that it makes good news. (It actually doesn’t necessarily mean that it ever happened at all).
2. If there are a few people doing this, they are not Chareidi. Even if they dress Chareidi ( I have no idea if that is the case or not, since I never saw or heard of it, and don’t even know if it ever happens), that doesn’t mean that they are Chareidi.
You can’t judge people by the way they dress. Just like you don’t think the soldiers should be judged by the way they dress, so too others should not be judged by the way they dress.
3. If such people exist, they would not listen if any Chareidim told them not to do so. People who do things like this are not people who listen to Chareidim (or to anyone).
4. No, most (if not all) Chareidim are definitely not okay with name-calling!
January 10, 2018 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1446865zahavasdadParticipantLU
1. I know people who have seen this Chilul hashem with the soldiers with their own eyes. Just because you didnt see them, doesnt mean it didnt happen. I dont know if its alot or a little, but if I would guess, its on the smaller amount
2, When a rogue MO rabbi gives a mazal tov to an “Alternative” couple , Some in the charedi community blame the entire OU and RCA for this. Just because some claims to be MO and appears to do it under the MO community doesnt mean they endorse such things (This point was made to compare to the “All Charedim do it”)
3. The charedim do know whose these people are and in general the charedi population is told of the evils of the army , When you tell everyone how evil it is, there are some unhindged people who will go to far (Just like telling them all “Alternative people” are evil it just takes one meshugganah who is unhindged to go to a parade and stab and kill someone
January 10, 2018 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1447050YossiiParticipantLu
I sow countless flyers comparing chardi soldiers to pigs and everyone that lives in eretz Isreal sees these flyers.A kid hearing that the chardi soldiers are pigs etc. will throw eggs at them because he can’t play basketball or any sports and what’s so bad about throwing eggs at pigsJanuary 10, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1447031JosephParticipantThe rogue MO rabbi is an OU member (and previously RCA as well, until he got tired of the RCA – the RCA never got rid of him.)
January 10, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1447032JosephParticipantThe leaders of the army are evil. There’s no reason not to tell people that. The alternative people are evil as well, and people need to be told that.
January 10, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1447043refoelzeevParticipantI just read that a soldier was hospitalized because people threw rocks at his tank, causing him to hit a lamp post. I don’t know if there was any protests against this behaviour.
January 10, 2018 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1447066nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.
2) A rouge rabbi? Now I know you must be shilling for the OO. The announcementS (yes more than one, I actually saw them) were in the official news letter for the headquarters of the OO, HIR. That would be like the Vatican publishing a memo and you saying it was just the word of rogue priest. Your saying that this is a “rogue Rabbi” is proof that you are deliberately denying the actual issue. (I am not expanding further because that is not the topic here)
3) The “chareidi people”? Do they have horns and pimply, hooked noses?
And the chareidim are opposed to forced army service for many reasons, including that it is huge hindrance to basic shemiras hamitzvos. And in many, many instance, intentionally so. The overwhelming majority of chareidim are supportive of members of the army and explicitly so. We all know about how members of the IDF would visiti that Chareidi Gedolim for brochos, which they regularly give.January 10, 2018 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1447069Geordie613ParticipantUnfortunately there are people who dress Chareidi, and in fact dress like very pious people, who do shout abuse at soldiers and throw rocks at them. It is tragic, but it does happen.
Rabbi YY Jacobson has told us the way to treat soldiers and how we should think of soldiers who we meet.
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?a=45339January 10, 2018 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1447070ZionGateParticipant“…..Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers….” AND assaulting them physically.
What we need are rabbonim who follow the Torah’s dictate of Lo Soguru Mipnei Ish,
and in loud voice ask : RASHA…. Lomo sakeh es Reiyechu ? as Moshe Rabbeinu did. All the while keeping in mind that Dasan & Aviram were no angels as per Torah’s continuing narrative.
Some are silent because they approve, some don’t care all that much, some are afraid of the Kol D’alim G’var thugs.
When they get their toilet water shut off, garbage stinks not collected, spigot of $$$ from Jewish State pinched, mail delivery halted, it’ll all stop. Patience, my friend, patience.January 10, 2018 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1447071Geordie613ParticipantUnfortunately there are people who dress Chareidi, and in fact dress like very pious people, who do shout abuse at soldiers and throw rocks at them. It is tragic, but it does happen.
Rabbi YY Jacobson has told us the way to treat soldiers and how we should think of soldiers who we meet.
Go on to Torah Anytime and search for “How to Treat Israeli Soldiers”January 10, 2018 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1447141David111Participant“Why are we not fighting the radicals that bother soldiers like chillul shabbes”
Please describe hoe you fight the Chillul Shabbos?
I will not support anyone that bothers these chareidy soldiers but they should respect the ultra orthodox community and not [internationally] walk in these neighbourhoods dressed in uniform. (They treat in like chillul shabbes).
January 10, 2018 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1447174zahavasdadParticipantI will not support anyone that bothers these chareidy soldiers but they should respect the ultra orthodox community and not [internationally] walk in these neighbourhoods dressed in uniform. (They treat in like chillul shabbes).
The soldiers are the one protecting the nation especially in Jerusalem which is a terrorist flashpoint as there are both Jews and Arabs living there.
Imagine if you said such a thing to a US marine officer walking through Borough park
January 10, 2018 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1447184whattosayParticipantI have personall witnessed a soldier being shouted at. He was frum.
A friend of mine was in the army. When he went to a shtiebl in beis yisroel (not his brightest decision) he was spat on, shouted at and forcibly removed. Before Rosh Hashona the ringleader of the teens who were involved called him crying, asking for mechila.
A different, close friend of mine(who, strangely enough was chozer bitshuva im the army) told me how he almost threw away everything he had gained (in frumkeit)since one of the first times he went out in public with a kippa on, he was in uniform and a chassidishe child shouted at him from a balcony, calling him a naziJanuary 10, 2018 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1447187David111Participant“Imagine if you said such a thing to a US marine officer walking through Borough park”
I can’t imagine seeing marines in the streets of Boro Park. BH we live in a safe Country that has freedom of religion. Bucharim can learn in Yeshivah (or earn nice money on a job).
January 10, 2018 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1447189David111Participant“..especially in Jerusalem which is a terrorist flashpoint”
It’s a failing Country. Wasn’t worth the effort. Time for everyone to move on. No safty. No money. No religious freedom. What a waste of time.
January 10, 2018 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1447207zahavasdadParticipant<e> I can’t imagine seeing marines in the streets of Boro Park. BH we live in a safe Country that has freedom of religion. Bucharim can learn in Yeshivah (or earn nice money on a job).
It’s a failing Country. Wasn’t worth the effort. Time for everyone to move on. No safty. No money. No religious freedom. What a waste of time.
And one wonders why Moshiach hasnt come yet. Who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel when you can live in Borough Park
January 10, 2018 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1447209nishtdayngesheftParticipantI should have stated this earlier.
Unprovoked (yes, there are times there are provocations) , it is very wrong to throw rocks at or otherwise harass soldiers, and Jewish soldiers all the more so.
However, I must strongly protest the title of the thread “like chillul Shabbos”. I do not think you can even remotely compare the two and the response that is required.
The same with the protest and outcry, (as minimal as it actually was – a couple of articles published L”A) that is appropriate when there is a so called Orthodox group announcing that an aveirah chamurah, one that carries the oinesh of sekilah, is appropriate, and a life choice to be celebrated. Those who make such claims are apikorsim, and those complaining about protests of those statements clearly lack certain “sensitivity” to Torah commandments.
January 10, 2018 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1447254David111Participant“And one wonders why Moshiach hasnt come yet. Who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel when you can live in Borough Park”
We all need to move to Israel? Is this what’ll bring Moshiach? Am I missing something?
January 10, 2018 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1447261zahavasdadParticipantThe people who help build for the coming of Moshiach will have more Zchus when he actually comes
January 10, 2018 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1447307David111Participant100%
January 10, 2018 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1447345YossiiParticipantNishtdayngesheft
Although chillull shabbes is extremely chamur and even chayav skilla for transgressing shabbes there is a svara to protest against people that embarrass frum jews in public in the name of the Torah for tow reasons
1.everyone knows that chillul shabbes is asur2.you don’t need to die for shabbes but you are mechyuv to die and not embarrass another Jew
January 10, 2018 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1447365nishtdayngesheftParticipantYossii,
1. And yet there are people who purposely are mechalel Shabbos. That is why people protest. (And what you aver is not true, anyway)
2. This is not true.
And who is being “embarrassed”? That is completely not the issue. They are being harassed , not embarrassed. We are talking about someone wearing a uniform publicly, how is he being embarrassed?
The issue is that these soldiers are being harassed and there is no reason for that and attacking someone is ossur, but it is not embarrassing.
January 10, 2018 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1447367zahavasdadParticipantI dont know you got that you have to die before embarassing another jew That is not true. That doesnt mean it is right to do these things
January 11, 2018 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1447438whattosayParticipantYossii—You are not mechuyav to die rather than embarrass someone. The Loshon of the gemara is “נוח לו לאדם”-it is appropriate for a person etc
The Rambam on embarrassing another (דעות, ו, ח) (translation from chabad.org)
“At first, a person who admonishes a colleague should not speak to him harshly until he becomes embarrassed as [Leviticus 19:17] states: “[You should]… not bear a sin because of him.” This is what our Sages said: Should you rebuke him to the point that his face changes [color]? The Torah states: “[You should]… not bear a sin because of him.”From this, [we learn that] it is forbidden for a person to embarrass a [fellow] Jew. How much more so [is it forbidden to embarrass him] in public. Even though a person who embarrasses a colleague is not [liable for] lashes on account of him, it is a great sin. Our Sages said: “A person who embarrasses a colleague in public does not have a share in the world to come.”
January 11, 2018 10:00 am at 10:00 am #1447550HaLeiViParticipantYou want to see a protest against some neighborhood youngsters? Protests, by nature, are against a government. Youngsters are admonished.
However, you do give up admonishing after a while. But maybe we can be Yotze armchair Macha’a right now:
Antagonizing soldiers is wrong, counterproductive, despicable, and a Chilul Hashem!
January 11, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1447680Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantcontinuation of #1447679: Another misconception is that because these people are dressed Chareidi, others who are dressed Chareidi have the power to influence and stop them. These people aren’t listening to anyone. If I saw such a thing, I don’t know if I would be able to do anything about it, and I have a feeling that you wouldn’t be able to either.
If you think that you could, I would be interested in knowing what it is that you would do. For that matter, if you think there is something that someone should be doing, why don’t you just go ahead and do it instead of writing posts in the CR condemning others for not doing anything?
January 11, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1447679Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantI want to clarify a few things:
Of course it is a terrible thing to harass anyone unprovoked. And if someone sees such a thing, they should certainly be upset about it, and want to protest, and be upset if they see that there were witnesses who did not protest. If I saw people dressed in Frum attire harassing someone without prior provocation and I saw that there were others there who could have protested and didn’t, I would certainly be very upset!
However, there are several (perhaps understandable) misconceptions here:
1. The assumption that such things happen frequently. As it has already pointed out, that is far from the case.
2. The assumption that if someone is dressed a certain way, it shows something about their level of observance and the community to which they belong.Years ago, there was another (similar-type) of issue that people were upset about. At the time, I was studying in a certain program in EY, and one of the students (who was a modern baalas teshuva) asked one of the Rabbanim (Dati Leumi and very, very anti-Chareidi) about it. He explained that these people aren’t even Frum, let alone Chareidi. They are people who went off the Derech and are no longer Frum, but still wear the levush.
I used to work in a school located in Geulah. Once on a Friday night, I saw a bunch of men yelling at a car driving by. I wanted to say something, but couldn’t say anything to them (I think I actually tried, but they didn’t hear me- they were too busy running after and shouting at the car), so instead I said something to a group of girls standing nearby. From the way they responded, it was clear that they were against such behavior as were the rest of the community, and that they did not consider these people to be part of the community.
So when you see someone engaging in anti-Torah behavior, don’t assume they are Chareidi just because of their clothes. Just like if you saw someone driving on Shabbos wearing Chareidi clothing (and it was clear that there was no pikuach nefesh involved), you wouldn’t call him Chareidi, don’t call this guy Chareidi.
Just like someone who drives on Shabbos is by definition not Chareidi, someone who harasses another unprovoked is not Chareidi!
January 11, 2018 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1447668Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantAnd by the way, I consider myself to be Chareidi, and I speak out against “onaas devarim” and loshon hora and being nice to people far more often than I speak out against chilul Shabbos, and so do most Chareidim I know.
All the Chareidim I know, if they saw someone they knew engaging in the behavior you speak of, would certainly say something to them. The thing is – I don’t think that anyone I know knows anyone like that!
January 11, 2018 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1447667Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantNisht: “1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.”
Thank you! That was precisely my point. I don’t know whether or not it happens at all, but it certainly is not a frequent occurrence, as one might think from the way the op is phrased: “many chareidim”. If it were frequent, I would have witnessed it or spoken to an eye-witness at least once in my life!
It definitely happens with far less frequency than chilul Shabbos does, and it is certainly not “many” chareidim, if these people can be termed chareidi at all.
The chareidi community as a whole neither engages in nor approves of these actions. These people do not consider themselves to be part of the “Chareidi community” nor does the “Chareidi community” consider them to be part of their community.
January 12, 2018 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1448262lesschumrasParticipantLU, you are missing the point. When an OO synagogue wished mazal tov to a gay couple, CR commentators immediately blamed all MO and pointed a finger at the RCA for not repudiating the mazal tov. Where were your comments in that context? Your defense of Chareidi gedolim over their silence applies to the RCA
January 12, 2018 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1448281YossiiParticipantNisht:
Whattosay:
First tosfos on daf yud amud bais דברי המתחיל נוח is mashma that it’s a chiyuv and not just it’s comfortable to kill yourselves and not embarrass someone in public and(עיין פסחים דף כה: why it’s not counted in 3 sings that you need to kill yourselves over)January 12, 2018 12:47 am at 12:47 am #1448487JosephParticipantLC: The OU and RCA continued to allow membership for those toeiva supporters. (Well, OU does; he quit the RCA on his own, they didn’t chuck him.) That’s different than these miscontents who are not members of anywhere.
January 12, 2018 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1448498YossiiParticipantI see in some of the comments that people are claiming that it’s a very small Minority of chardim that harass chardi soldiers.I moved from eratz Isreal 2 years ago and when I was there there was posters and flyers everywhere comparing chardi soldiers to pigs,I have spoken to many many pleg yerushlmi guys and everyone was pro this behavior the pleg guys are probably 20% of the isreali chardi world and no rabbi speaks against it,when I went to the shtiblach next to my yeshiva,many times there was these flyers, i would throw them out and get screamed at and it was taken right out the garbage, I felt like I was doing a gutsy thing throwing them out when it should be common sense.I moved from eratz Isreal and live now in Lakewood and if these flyers would be in satmer or anywhere in Lakewood they would be thrown out very quickly. bottom line is if you see a poster with a chardi soldier picture with a face of a pig or the posters with a chardi soldier going out of the garbage and all the kids laughing at him then you are not doing your hishtadlus to stop the radicals and it should be stopped
January 12, 2018 7:30 am at 7:30 am #1448530zahavasdadParticipantSome people seem to have a different definition of Charedi
If someone is the child of a Rosh Yeshiva and a mother who is a Tzdekeas and the whole family is very helig, But this person R’L lies to his father about going to Yeshiva, sneaks out all the time and hangs out on the street with his friends while smoking pot and other juvenile deliquiences , but dresses charedi and goes home to his parents. is that person Charedi?
Many charedim inside the community are not willing to call such people charedi, but people outside the community are. and IMO those people are charedi, they might be charedim in name only, but as long as they live in the community and basically think of themselves as part of the community then they are part of the community. If they wish to leave, let them move to Tel Aviv with the rest of the hedonists, cut the peyos, drop the Levush and then people wont count them as part of the community, but until then, they are part of the community
January 12, 2018 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1448525MTABParticipant“Many Chardim are calling names to soldiers and no one stands against them, Is most chardim okay with that”
It’s not that common. I have seen enough soldiers in Charedi areas and nobody bothered them. The stories are grossly exaggerated.
Most of the most famous stories are where police dressed as soldiers and tried to provoke trouble.
January 12, 2018 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1448527David111ParticipantYossii.
You have clearly explained you how you fight these radicals.
Can you elaborate on how you fight Chillul Shabbos.
January 12, 2018 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1448531nishtdayngesheftParticipantLC,
Only you would consider the cases comparable.
1) With the OU, it has to do with claimed membership and giving credence to. The are allowing such a synagogue membership in their organization. Chareidi gedolim do not claim affiliation with the few lunatic radicals. Huge difference, but make no difference to you.
2) The uproar about OO membership in the OU is not just suddenly and about this one item. This is a long standing matter of contention amongst OU leadership for a long time.
3) It is a blatant, bald face lie by you to say that commenters smeared all MO. The most vocal commenters are people who consider themselves MO.
January 12, 2018 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1448489JosephParticipantLook at the chiluk between frum miscontents and non-frum/goyishe miscontents. The frum ones only yell at people; the non-frum/goyim go on drugs, alcohol and rob and assault people.
January 12, 2018 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1448550MTABParticipanthere’s the solution – stop drafting them
January 12, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1448590zahavasdadParticipantThere are plenty of “frum” people on drugs and booze
here is the solution DRAFT them and the army will whip them up into shape, If these people are as malcontents as people here say they are. a few months in boot camp will shape them up real quickly. Those push ups get real old real fast
January 12, 2018 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1448593☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantZD, you want an army full of druggies?
January 12, 2018 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1448620David111Participant“ZD, you want an army full of druggies?”
ZD wants “..whip them up into shape”
January 12, 2018 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1448610zahavasdadParticipantThis hasnt been the main discussion here, but in general protests against Chilul Shabbos generally dont work and look to the resignation of the Health Minister over Chilul Shabbos, not only did he not get what he wanted, he had to crawl back begging to be let back in the government
And protests against Movie theaters did not only not close them down, MORE people attended them because of the protests
Nobody stopped being Mechalel Shabbos because someone threw a stone
January 12, 2018 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1448609zahavasdadParticipantSome malcontent from Tel Aviv goes into the army and guess what, They shape him up real fast. If the army can shape up some hedonist from Tel Aviv , shouldnt they be able to shape up some malcontent from Bnei Brak?
January 12, 2018 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1448605David111Participantzahavasdad – “here is the solution DRAFT them and the army will whip them up into shape”
I’m glad that your being honest with your beliefs and ideology.
January 12, 2018 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1448656HaLeiViParticipantZdad, regarding protests not help the Shabbos cause, absolutely. In fact, I doubt anyone here argues.
January 12, 2018 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1448658zahavasdadParticipantZdad, regarding protests not help the Shabbos cause, absolutely. In fact, I doubt anyone here argues.
Unfortuantly Many seem in denial of this including some leaders and shown with the Litzmann resgination
January 12, 2018 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1448666JosephParticipant“This hasnt been the main discussion here, but in general protests against Chilul Shabbos generally dont work”
Exactly, ZD, you’re finally getting it!!! Protests against malcontents don’t work, exactly like you said. Whether the malcontents are mocking Israeli soldiers, engaging in chillul Shabbos or getting high on drugs.
January 12, 2018 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1448688zahavasdadParticipantIts not like these Malcontents torah is protecting Klal Yisroel, they arent even yeshiva
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