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Its because of acts like these that marriage is cheapened. And whether or not that feeling carries over to the Jewish world, its message seeps in and is destructive and poisoning.For those who say that they don’t believe such marriages are right, but how can they deny it to others: if such things continue, what kind of society would that create? Is this the kind of world you want to live in, your children to grow up in? if you don’t feel revulsion and give that over to your children, the sensitivities of the next generation (or lack thereof) will be so dulled. These acts are wrong and intolerable and if you don’t feel that way….. your sensitivities have been tragically affected.
Charliehall,the liberal, what was wrong with Lot “marrying” his daughters or Yehudah “marrying” Tamar?
to charliehall: “”unmarried couples publicly living together””
There are many views that in such cases, assuming they are both Jews, they have made a kiddushim by bi’ah, and she requires a “get” if she ever wants to marry anyone else. The complication is that if you are a “liberal” as to what is required to make a marriage you end up in a situation in which within a few generations most non-frum Jews are safek mamzerim. The “stricter” opinion requires intent to be married by halacha, which means regarding all marriages involving non-frum Jews are void which is very insulting to them but means their children can’t be mamzerim. It’s an ongoing dispute – that has nothing to do with “gay marriage”
jewishfeminist02: If they don’t file a joint return, they are required to file as a married couple filing seperately (which is usually expensive). If they file as unmarried (separate returns), they are violating the tax code and could be prosecuted if in doing so they pay lower taxes (as would be likely if they both have substantial incomes).
Akuperma: It’s a dead dispute. The world holds like R’ Moshe.
Mountied who said: Common-law-marriage is ONLY available in nine States. Anywhere else a religious marriage without a civil marriage will NOT result in legal (secular) recognition of the marriage. Such a couple CANNOT file a joint tax return.
1. In states with common law marriage it isn’t even an issue that a hupah is a valid marriage.
2. In other states, it depends on state law. In New York, the lack of a marriage license doesn’t affect the vallidity of the marriage – though it is a nuisance if you have to prove you are married (in effect you’ll have to sue to get a marriage certificate if you need if, e.g. for inheritance or child custody purposes). However the marriage is valid, meaning you could be prosecuted for tax fraud if you pay taxes as “single” (as would be the case if a two-income family). If you want to avoid having to file as “married”, one might consider a contract to be a concubine (2nd class wife) since under common law the status of concubine is not recognized – however if you have a proper kosher marriage you are probably married under the state law.
Just some random thoughts I have when I read these discussions:
I TRULY believe that marriage is cheapened by us everyday when Torah Observant choose to only date a girl/boy based on superficial things such as looks/money/who their family is etc. THIS cheapens marriage much more than those who marry because they fell in love with who a person is.
2. Why are we always picking and choosing what is wrong and worthy of being up in arms about? There are so many Toeivas and Torah prohibitions, and yet where are the masses of members of the Jewish faith to criticize those who are slimy in their business dealings (Devarim 25:13-16).
3. A similar thought, how can you be up in arms against legalizing gay marriage and not be up in arms when they open up a McDonalds in a Jewish area? Both are providing the vehicle by which Jews will be committing aveirahs. One step further, there’s no inherent taivah to eat a cheeseburger, but one who Hashem creates with the tayva of being attracted to the same-sex does have an inherent tayva similar to an individual has an attraction to the opposite sex! I would argue logically that we should judge less those who have an inherent tayva they are born with than one that is so easy not to do…!
4. The saying “don’t throw stones in glass houses” really rings true here. If every Jew spent as much time working on their own middos as they spend on criticizing other Jews for succumbing to their shortcomings we would honestly have a nation of Tzadikim.
There are many different aspects to the gay marraige issue:
1) Should states be allowed to sanction gay marriage?
2) Should states be allowed to prohibit gay marriage?
3) Should states be allowed to prohibit sodomy?
4) Should states saction gay marriage?
5) Should states prohibit gay marriage?
6) Do the answers to 4 & 5 change if the states are prohibited, by the federal government, from prohibiting sodomy?
7) Should Torah Observant Jews care one or another what the states do on this issue?
I’m sure somebody above already mentioned this, but if gay marriage were to be outlawed, it would be because of the Christian right. Anybody who is not religious – jewish or otherwise – has no reason to outlaw gay marriage.
Now, if we allow religion to dictate law in america, the same religion that is the majority (hint:it’s not Judaism) can create other laws that would stifle our ability to serve God and obey His Torah. It is a very slippery slope.
Therefore, I am of the opinion that we should allow our elected representatives to make this decision that does not affect us in the slightest.
What’s so hard, benignuman?
There are many different aspects to the gay marraige issue:
1) Should states be allowed to sanction gay marriage?
No.
2) Should states be allowed to prohibit gay marriage?
Yes, it should be prohibited.
3) Should states be allowed to prohibit sodomy?
Yes it should be prohibited, and it was in some states until recently when the same court that invented a “constitutional right” to abortion overturned it.
4) Should states saction gay marriage?
No.
5) Should states prohibit gay marriage?
Yes.
6) Do the answers to 4 & 5 change if the states are prohibited, by the federal government, from prohibiting sodomy?
Irrelevant as sodomy should be prohibited.
7) Should Torah Observant Jews care one or another what the states do on this issue?
Yes. The Gemora in Meseches Chullin Daf Tzaddik Beis Amud Beis right at the top of the Amud states that one of the “Zchusim” that the umos hoilam have is that they do not write marital contracts for “mishkav zochur” and the Gemora says the reason the gentiles weren’t destroyed is because they don’t write marriage contract to mishcav zochorniks. And the act itself is a violation of the Sheva Mitzvos and we are enjoined to enforce the Sheva Mitzvos.
I believe that same gender relationships should have a legal basis in this country (which is NOT a theocratic society). But whatever one wants to call that legal relationship, the word “marriage” should not be applied. All the rights that married couples have (and the deficits, as well) should be available to gay couples. There should be no question when a gay man is hospitalized, that his committed partner is his next of kin. But likewise, if that gay man incurs a debt, so should his partner be liable for it, to the extent that ANY legal spouse would be in the same circumstance.
“jewishfeminist02: If they don’t file a joint return, they are required to file as a married couple filing seperately (which is usually expensive). If they file as unmarried (separate returns), they are violating the tax code and could be prosecuted if in doing so they pay lower taxes (as would be likely if they both have substantial incomes).”
As I said, it really depends on your financial situation. Sometimes filing jointly saves money; sometimes filing separately (as a couple, NOT as unmarried as I also already specified) saves money.
MarketWatch has a really thorough article on the subject if you’re interested. I can’t post the link, but you can Google “Your marriage and the IRS”.
sam2 who wrote “Akuperma: It’s a dead dispute. The world holds like R’ Moshe. “
Many of the Religious Zionists, in Israel, in fact hold that marriages involving non-Orthodox Jews are valid, which is why they are so insistent that the Israeli government closely regulate marriage and divorce (a “frummer” approach is to follow R. Moshe and say that only frum Jews can possibly have the intent to be married “kdas Moshe v’Yisrael” and therefore there is no danger of the Am Ha-Artsim being safek mamzerim). Note that many new Baalos tsuevahos who were either married or “in relationships” before becoming frum do try to get a “get” to be certain, though since we are several generations into the “sexual revolution” the damage is done (if you have a “makel” attitude as to getting married).
One of the 2 cases went before the Supreme court invovled a Lesbian from NYC.
Her “friend” of about 40 years had died and because they were not legally married she owed a Tax Bill of $376,000 (Or somehting close to that)
She sued that if they were legally married federally she would not owe the money (They were married in Canada and NY at the time recognized marriaged performed elsewher) Since Spouces can inheit money tax free
Personally, I’m against gay marriage… but I hear the other side. The fact is, the only reason we know gay marriage to be immoral is because the Torah tells us. If it wasn’t for the Torah, nowadays, in our society, most of us would probably be pro-gay marriage. Now since we have the Torah we think it’s wrong… but if we would recognize that without Torah, we would probably agree with the pro gay marriage platform, how could we expect others to accept an anti-gay marriage platform without Torah? As immoral as we believe it to be, we only believe it to be immoral because the Torah tells us. How could we impose our religion on others? If we could impose our religion on others, what’s stopping them from imposing their religion on us?
Also, people argue it’s one of the 7 Mitvzos Benei Noach. So? Is it our responsibility to do kiruv among the Goyim? According to many, Chirsitianity is AZ for Goyim… should we be embarking on a campaign to make that illegal because they’re violating one of the 7 mitzvos benei Noach? If a candidate is pro gay marriage but willing to give a lot of $$$ to yeshivos… should we oppose such a candidate? We have to sacrifice Torah to do kiruv for Goyim? We care about them more than we care about us? Maybe we should worry about increasing Torah and doing kiruv for not yet frum Jews before we start worrying which one of the 7 Mitzvos Benei Noach that the Goyim aren’t keeping.
You are correct
However, Dovbear has written about this before and most people in this “Oilam” use Sefer VaYikra as a fig leaf for their hate.
The word Toeava refers to some other behaviors that people in the frum community seem to sanction time and time again.
Akuperma, get busy with the American law at which you are an expert, not with Halochah where you are not. Those Ba’alos teshuvah are made to look for a get only if possible as an extra chumrah. Btw, you attitude towards the Jewish people is nauseating.
What_is_in…, let me explain to you. Mishkav zochur is a chiyuv misa, yehareg ve’lo’yaavor and kares (for a Yid) and it’s assur even for a Ben Noach. Plus Maharal writes that no other aveirah attaches a person to the Sotan as much as gilui arayos. Cheating in business or treif are by far much less.
There are many fiduciary incentives to being married, tax breaks among them.
For some, their professed religion is poison “Sam Hamaves”
(Some ‘jews’ will excuse also euthanasia’giving high functionig animals human rights ,etc. etc.)
These people and their defenders must be thrown out of our people
and cease to exist
the most basic in religion and life is Don’t Do This
and oppose it with every fiber of your strength
Study and discover that EVERYTHING Else (murder included)pales in comparison
In short they, as much as they will pretend,mortally against religion and life
Otherwise you are better off dead
I wonder how many frum jews will meet , visit and vote for Christine Quinn when she visits Borough Park or Williamsburg
“This is not a proper Torah haskafa.”
It is, proof in T’nach. Sometimes Torah rules are overridden for the sake of peace with other nations.
I bet when it was prohibited by law for a white person to marry a black, all the white people were saying: “It will ruin the sanctity of marriage to allow people of different races to mix!! It’s immoral! Outrageous! What’s next? Men marrying men?”.
And now inter-racial marriage is not a big deal at all.
Interesting how its the same argument, different time period.
whats in a name, Obviously what you are saying is the truth.
I think this is part of what scares us (as perhaps it should), to the younger genration it isnt even a debate. Gay marriage is a done deal maximum ten years. The way we (well most of us) view interrarcial marriage is how our children will view gay marriage. This is a problem since it is called Toeiva so while of course there is nothing technically that would change if they are “married” or not, the issur mishkav zachar is completly independent of whether they c;aim they are “married” it is the accepting attitude that is fueling the misguided battle.
A greta example of this shift is opinions on “dont ask dont tell” It was originally suported by Democrats and opposed by Republicans who wanted a ban. a little over a decade later it is supported by Republicans and opposed by Democrats. The tide is shifting and unstopable and scares many.
The issue for many is more of a human rights issue. For some, the answer is that the Torah forbids, and these people must suffer discrimination, or worse. Some people are not comfortable with this Mehalach. They don’t see why there is some kind of emphasis about this Averia over many others, including financial crimes, sex abuse, Chilull Shabbos and others. Why this dafka causes more extreme reaction than to other aveiros which are done. THis I think is the main divide on this issue. I personally am schizophrenic on the issue, I would say I am teiku. As Frum person, I cannot accept that whole gay experience as valid in any way, but as person who has lived in this world, I see the point about over zealousness on this averia over so many others. It seems unfair, without justification.
It would be an interesting question if I was invited say to such a wedding, say a relative.
What_in_…, are you frum? Do you know that Rambam paskened that we have an obligation to enforce the 7 mitzvos on the Umos if we can?
Ubiquitin, you are wrong! Gemorah in Chulin says that one of the zechusim the Goyim have is that they do not officially marry men.So it is an issue.
They don’t see why there is some kind of emphasis about this Averia over many others, including financial crimes, sex abuse, Chilull Shabbos and others. Why this dafka causes more extreme reaction than to other aveiros which are done.
The response to that is that it is very different from people who do any other aveira personally. Here, what they davka want is for societal recognition and participation in their aveirah. That is what marriage is, and is what the want. California already gave them all the legal effect of a marriage–just not the societal blessing, and that is what they were complaining about.
Adams , see my post about the special chumrah of this aveirah. Would you go to an intermarriage wedding which is less chomur?
Crisis,
You are quoting dovbear? He is a fool, besides being misguided. No wonder you suffer such crises if who you look up to is a misguided fool.
Canadian Mountie & Mdd,
Only Lubavitch holds that we are responsible for getting non-Jews to keep the Sheva Mitzvos. Their position is based on a Rambam (which is not quite as muchach as they say), but the rest of Torah world firs like the Ramban that we are not required to encourage the non-Jews to keep the sheva mitzvos, and we certainly aren’t required to enforce them.
You are misreading the Gemara in Chullin (you are mushing together two different memras). All it actually says on the topic is that the non-Jews accepted 30 (additional) mitzvos and that they only keep 3 of them (one of those three not writing kesubos for mishkav zachor). If we are not required (and don’t actually) encourage non-Jews to keep the Sheva Mitzvos themselves, we surely are not required to encourage non-Jews to keep the additional mitzvos they were mekabel.
Adams,
In addition to what Popa wrote, I would add that many Orthodox Jews care because mishkav zachor is also forbidden to non-Jews (just because we don’t enforce the Sheva Mitzvos, doesn’t mean we don’t care).
Benignuman, I do not think we don’t hold like the Rambam. It’s just the general apathy and amaratzus. Especially, because for most of our golus we could not do it and even now we are very limited regarding this chiyuv. It does not mean that we don’t pasken like that. Especially that Halochah is usually like Rambam against Ramban.
i think we care specifically here because we view it as concrete evidence of the moral breakdown of the society we live in, where human rights and morals have been ousted by whatever fels good. these ‘goodists’ seek to cloak whatever they feel to be good for them as moral. typical left wing approach.
mdd
You are cute, and I suppose you expect anybody to beleive that you oppose gay marriage, becasue you care so much about goyim and want to avoid their destrcution.
LOL
Ubiquitin, I care about the ratzon Ha’Shem and the proper state of the human race, first. And I care about the good Goyim who do what they are supposed to do. Nothing to laugh about!
Benignuman, you can learn the Gemorah in Chullin like that but it is, for sure, mashma that it is a big thing that they don’t(didn’t) do it.
“I wonder how many frum jews will meet , visit and vote for Christine Quinn when she visits Borough Park or Williamsburg”
Probably fewer than voted (by landslide margins) for Mike Bloomberg, who ought to be much more problematic than Quinn. While both support same sex marriage, Bloomberg’s ex-wife and current girlfriend aren’t Jewish, and neither are his kids. Quinn OTOH violates absolutely no issur by having a female partner because neither is Jewish.
And as I alluded to earlier about half of American Orthodox Jews voted for Mitt Romney, a polytheist.
mdd: No, I think ben read that Gemara perfectly. People today say it like the Gemara meant it was a huge deal. But to quote a prominent Rav I once heard, “The Gemara says they have 3 things they get a Z’chus for. Okay. Now they’ll have 2.”
I’ve felt that for frum Jews who never get married, the option for 2 friends of the same gender to live together and share expenses, assets, etc. should be an option. Such a situation would be strictly platonic, but would afford such individuals the comfort of friendship and companionship, as well as stability.
You’re describing older singles who have roommates/suitemates. Nothing wrong with that, but I’ve never heard of an arrangement in which they share assets.
I was very much against gay marriage until recently. I heard a speech on Ted, I believe the speaker is Andrew Solomon. I think it is something everyone should listen to!
“I find it fascinating how many Christian values have slipped into what people think is normative Jewish opinion.”
Thank you @CharlieHall!!!
But most people here would argue that “This is the mesorah from Sinai!!”
I guess it helps to be completly ignorant of history.
The most basic problem with gay marriage, for all the non Torah observant here such as crisis and Charlie who seem to think that the Torah view is not important, is the redefinition of marriage.
Marriage was the beginning of a family unit, including all that is included in a family. It is not merely a financial contract, which is what I see some proposing here, including it as a reason why marriage in itself is not osur. Because of that were the case how can constructive abandonment be a reason for divorce? That has nothing do with finances and has everything to do with a marriage presupposing intimate relations.
The deconstruction of a family unit is something that should concern any reasonable person who is concerned about society in general. If liberals feel left out from this definition, that is their own fault.
It is pointless to expand further here, because the staunch liberals who post here seem less than intelligent and have proven concretely that they have issues with reading comprehension.
crisis +1
You know, Voltaire was a nasty anti Semite, but he wasn’t stupid. So when he writes in Candide “First, tend your own garden”, I think he’s onto something.
As well, living in a free society is not a zero sum game. You don’t get everything you may hope, wish or pray for, and you shouldn’t expect such from your government. What you should hope, wish and pray for is the freedom (as an individual in golus) to do what your God tells you to do, and for everyone else, the govt, other individuals, other faiths, to leave you alone with your freedoms.
If you want those freedoms for yourself, in a free, democratic society, you have to recognize that others with other agendas and other perspectives want their own freedoms, and unless you can demonstrate in a free judiciary that such freedoms of theirs impinge upon yours or cause you physical harm or loss of property, you must accept for them what you demand for yourself.
I have no argument about how you interpret what the Torah expects your perspective to be. None at all. As I wrote earlier, I am not pro-gay marriage either, because the only meaningful understanding of marriage I hold is a halachic one, and marrying anything other than a man to a woman halachically is like marrying a parrot to a rubber band.
But that isn’t the issue. The issue is – are you prepared to live in a free society or not? Do you understand what that means? Do you get that when the supreme court makes a ruling, you have no other recourse under law to advance your perspective, other than electing someone who shares your views to the presidency, and hoping that he or she will be able to change the complexion of the court and reintroduce the matter in another way?
What it boils down to is this. Orthodox people who are pro Gay marriage I don’t understand either. But Orthodox people who reconcile themselves to the reality of living in the medina shel chesed I do understand. They don’t and cant live in a fantasy world where all their taines are answered and all their perspectives are shared.
If you want to continue to enjoy the freedom to be a halacha observing Jew in America, you will, sooner or later, need to understand that the other 330 million of you have equal access to those freedoms. HKBH put you there, not in Iran. I’m pretty sure he knew what he was doing. But if you disagree, you can go to Iran. I hear they don’t have any M’Z there, so you can be pretty sure that marriage won’t be an issue.
to Jewishishfeminist02 who wrote “You’re describing older singles who have roommates/suitemates. Nothing wrong with that, but I’ve never heard of an arrangement in which they share assets.”
Its quite common for long term roommates (housemates, whatever) to end uphaving joint accounts, shared assets, often buying a house or car together. When the relationship ends (voluntarily or through death), it can create great complications (and of course, great opportunties for parnassah for lawyers).
And it has nothing to do with gender or sex.
Quinn OTOH violates absolutely no issur by having a female partner because neither is Jewish. ”
Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach which are incumbent on the entire world, also include arayos. And part of arayos is maasei Canaan and Mitzrayim (of which my understanding included female same gender immoral activity.
Charlie,
I fail to understand why you are so concerned about Bloomberg’s religiosity when you defend the apikorsus of the coordinator of the IRF vaad hagiyur. The michsholim from that are much more dangerous.
Sam2, see the Gemorah for yourself. It is in Chullin, around 92A-B.
Fkelly, I do not know who Andrew Solomon is nor do I care. We know what Ribono shel Olam said.
“Its quite common for long term roommates (housemates, whatever) to end uphaving joint accounts, shared assets, often buying a house or car together. When the relationship ends (voluntarily or through death), it can create great complications (and of course, great opportunties for parnassah for lawyers).
And it has nothing to do with gender or sex.”
Where do you live? I have never met or heard of a single person using the arrangement described above. Neither has my husband.
It makes sense to share grocery bills, cleaning expenses, etc. But a joint bank account and a shared car? Why would anyone do that, and where are they hiding?
mdd: I have not heard of him either nor do I care who he is. I saw the Gemara. I still think P’shat is precisely as ben said.
Oomis: Ma’aseh Eretz Mitzrayim is not an Assur form of Arayos for Goyim. The Rambam mentions what they are in Hilchos Melachim.
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