Why are some people so smart?

rationalfrummie –

Yitayningwut: speak for yourself. If you don’t value halacha l’ma’aseh, you have a problem. If you are saying only Gemara b’iyun is valuable, you also have a problem.

Sure I value the study of halacha l’ma’aseh. That’s not the point.

The point is that you are expecting women to be satisfied with something no ben yeshiva would be satisfied with, and you consider that perfectly reasonable.

No, it isn’t reasonable.

If rationalfrummie wants to come with a cut-and-dry claim that God does not want women to study Gemara b’iyun, that’s one thing. But he didn’t say that. He directly implied that the satisfaction derived from learning Nach and Halacha is the same as from learning Gemara b’iyun and that therefore women shouldn’t complain. That is a disingenuous claim, and it makes a joke of a serious issue.

WIY – But there are plenty of people who enjoy learning Gemara more, so pretending it doesn’t have anything the other limmudim don’t also have is sweeping the matter under the rug. The fact is they are being denied something they just van’t get elsewhere. If you want to claim that such is Hashem’s will, fine. But let’s at least own up to the facts here.

Tell you what: personally, I’ve never really had any particular urge to learn gemara (my dad asked me if I wanted to when I was younger and I kind of wrinkled my nose and said it sounded too complicated), but I’d feel a lot better about not being able to (by the system, at least) if someone would give me a reason why. The discussion recently came up in a class in school led by a very well-known rav who was asked the question and said it wasn’t part of the mesorah. A girl then responded that until the time of Sarah Schenirer it was just barely part of the mesorah to teach women any Torah in-depth at all, but now it’s acceptable- would gemara ever gain that level of acceptability? He looked very uncomfortable and completely skirted the issue (which I’ve discovered usually entails repeating whatever was said already in an authoritative voice and then going into a whole convoluted mashal that doesn’t really apply in the hopes that by the time it’s over we’ll have forgotten the question already).

If the girl’s point was incorrect, then why didn’t he say so? If she was right, then why not give some other answer if there is one?

Is there a real answer besides mesorah and the whole thing about women’s brains working differently that we’ve chewed to pieces on that other thread? If women want to, why can’t they?

Fine- so a) can someone give me a source for girls not being allowed to learn gemara and b) why wouldn’t he say that outright as opposed to going on a whole long diversion? Of course, this is something I should really bring up with him instead of random online people but the point still stands. I was talking about it to someone in my class and she said she thought he didn’t want to get us annoyed- but seriously, if you think something’s correct, then what other people think about it shouldn’t matter.

I’ll be really honest, setting aside whether it’s proper or not for Bais Yaakovs to be teaching whatever it is that they teach, I laugh inside when we learn all kinds of random things in-depth with sheets photocopied out of gemaras but that when it comes to bringing the sefer into the classroom- chas vechalilah.

writersoul: Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 1:13. It’s quoted in Shulchan Aruch YD 245 (maybe 246).

That said, the Drishah on that Siman in the Tur says that if a girl volunteers to learn on her own then it’s totally fine. While this P’sak is not publicized so much, most seem to assume like it. Some extend this Drishah to mean that if a girl volunteers to learn you are then allowed to teach her without any parameters. Many do not like this extension of the Heter. But most knowledgeable Rabbonim would not fault you if you opened up a Gemara on your own and started learning.

It would seem that the overeducating of girls has produced more bad than good as far as far as shalom Bayis is concerned. Many girls feel that they know just as much as their husbands sometimes they know more and it causes them to look down on their husbands and feel superior. This of course leads to serious shalom Bayis issues because the wife doesn’t hold her husband in high esteem.

The Igros Moshe YD 3:86 says that the Chachamim commanded that women should not be taught Mishna since it is oral Torah and it is like teaching them tiflos(promiscuity) and it should be avoided. However, they can be taught Pirkei Avos since it has Mussar and has hanhagos tovas.

In The Sefer VaYoel Moshe(Satmer Rebbe) Maimer Lashon Hakodesh 33(page 436) says teaching Rashi to girls falls into the category of teaching tiflos and is an issur chamer Meod.

JF, great point. Put that in Popa’s thread.

It is interesting, by the way. I have heard several Gedolim speak that they are very upset about the fact that people think they can just look up a bunch of Shittos on Bar Ilan and thinking they can argue with major Poskim. “Being a Talmid Chacham is about much more than being able to use a search engine properly.”

I’m definitely NOT. Many here can attest to that.

When you learn, the concepts shape your thinking. A great memory is required to quote the exact words, but to mention a general location, or a topic without a location, is not the work of memory. When The Frog uses Google to get the words of the Pasuk, obviously awareness of the Pasuk preceded the search. That kind of Bekius in Tanach I am unfortunately far from (as of now).

You might notice that sometimes Sam2 says that he feels like there’s a Gemara someplace. That is because, when you allow the Torah to create your attitudes, instead of twisting it to fit yours, you can eventually assume that the strong bias you have about a certain issue is not unfounded.

Pulling up a Sugya from here or from there is no different than how people pepper a conversation with anecdotes of their life. It doesn’t take a great memory, but it requires active participation.

StreekGeek, simple cause they were jews.

The way the geometric progression of parentage works, we are all, or mostly related to those few legendary women who functioned as “behind the curtain” roshei yeshiva. They gifted us our smarts.

i don’t think learning torah could possibly be bad unless you are forced to do it. as a female, i do occasionally look up things in the gemara, mishnayos, and plenty other sfarim, but only if i find them quoted in a different spot (ishei hatanach, mikra’os gedolos, sefer halacha, etc) and want to investigate further/clarify. i do sometimes get distracted and read the next gemara too, but i don’t think it’s the end of the world. i also have a fairly decent grasp of aramaic so it’s easier for me.

and speaking of bais yaakovs- when i was in high school we learned photocopied or written out gemaras left and right. usually it was shayach to whatever we were learning…

Question:

If one can accept nishtaneh hateva that various physical processes changed then why can’t one say nishtaneh hateva in regards to the minds of women?

It could be in regards to both. But if we grant that it’s a possibility then there should be no objection to women learning.

“I don’t think there is an objection per se, its just the way things have been done since the first BY school was formed.”

Do they not teach the past 90+ years of history because they didn’t teach it when the first BY school was formed?

“The seculars claim that women are not only currently intellectual equals but that they have always been intellectual equals, and that nothing changed physically or intellectually to make them more equal in contemporary times but rather they claim that they were suppressed in the past.”

On what basis would someone state that currently, women are not intellectual equals? If there is no basis and you believe that thousands of years they were not equal then you can simply say nishtaneh hateva. The main argument that people use today in favor of women learning is that they have demonstrated intellectual equality, e.g. by becoming doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. (For the record I don’t know if “intellectual” is the precise word which should be used, but I can’t think of any one word which would be more precise.) Now if someone thinks that this is not true then let him/her hold that women are not capable of learning. But if someone thinks that it is true then why not say nishtaneh hateva to avoid any problems. Especially considering that it is very sensible that people’s intellectual/emotional capacity would change based on their life circumstances – i.e. someone who never had any education would have a much harder time learning gemara. So for instance, if all a woman ever had to do was cook and have children, then it would make sense that in certain regards she would be “intellectually inferior” (and presumably a man in that situation would also be inferior) but once women do the same things as men it would make sense that this would change.

“What exactly in today’s reality dictates that women should be learning? What has changed since the original BY that would obligate girls to learn?”

There are two seperate issues. 1)Is there a reason why women specifically nowadays NEED to learn 2)Do the reasons why in the past women were not supposed to learn still apply nowadays.

I was discussing the second issue. (I am more than willing to discuss the first issue as well, in a minute.)

“but on the other hand, there is no reason why they should.”

The reason why they should is to know the halachos.

“And why try to pigeonhole a nishtaneh hateva argument for essentially the purpose of trying to advance a political desire of equality.”

I might agree in regards to those who are trying to advance a political desire of equality. But there are plenty of others who aren’t.