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PBA, you really should stop drinking.
I heard a really interesting joke (though used in an entirely different context):
If you told smokers that all the cigarettes they used were made with lard, they would stop smoking. If you told them it’s an issur di’oraisah to damage your body, and smoking damages your body, they’d continue anyway.
There is no such thing as smoking just a little. Cigarettes are the one legal product that can kill when used exactly as directed. It can kill not only the user, but people around that user who have no intention of using that product themselves. They are forced to “smoke” as non-participants.
Even were it not assur to kill oneself (v’nishmartem m’eod es nafshoseichem), it most certainly is unquestionably assur to cause harm/potential death to another person. Anyone who believes it does NOT cause harm to others, after all the reports that prove otherwise, is simply a thoughtless, inconsiderate person, whose negligent and depraved indifference to life in pursuit of his hano-ah, demonstrates a singular self-centeredness that is not consistent with Torah values. Our Gedolim who smoked made a few mistakes back in the day, because they were unaware of the serious and life-threatening ramifications of smoking, or they would have paskened differently. Today, I doubt a responsible Gadol would say it’s perfectly OK to smoke. And the exhorbitant amounts of money used to buy the smokes, could surely be put to far better use, don’t you think?
abe- that because there are enough people who smokers can rely on and fool themselves. ma shi’ein kein with lard. interestingly enough, lots of people frum your camp watch tv and movies knowing that theyre gonna end up seeing or hearing or thinking things they shouldnt, but also wont eat lard! who wouldve known.
What I was saying is that while the studies done are neutral, the way the results are reported are biased toward not smoking. True, smoking is unhealthy. That is why I quit. That does not mean that the way studies are reported should be biased toward whatever makes smoking sound so deadly. The result of that is some of the extreme opinions we’ve seen here. If no one regularly smokes indoors near you, your exposure to secondhand smoke is so minimal, that describing their actions as “depraved indifference” is as silly as it is extreme.
Someone here wrote that a smoker is more than 50% likely to die from smoking. Really? Prove it. What study are you citing? Does this include a 96 yo smoker who has a heart attack?
My point with the lung cancer numbers is just to show a) there’s a significant risk w/o smoking, and b) if you and 178 other people smoke, odds are none of you will get lung cancer.
frumnotyeshivish -“What I was saying is that while the studies done are neutral, the way the results are reported are biased toward not smoking. True, smoking is unhealthy.”
So if the results are biased -why do you say – “smoking is unhealthy”?!?
Health- It’s unhealthy; everyone agrees. He’s just pointing out that presenting evidence in a way that shows an obvious bias makes people blow it out of proportion.
no one regularly smokes indoors near you, your exposure to secondhand smoke is so minimal, that describing their actions as “depraved indifference” is as silly as it is extreme.”
First of all, you have no idea who smokes indoors near me or not. I have no smokers in my home, but I worked in an office where for years there were smokers. People who smoke are generally NOT particularly concerned with offending other people who cannot stand smoke. They smoke in their homes and expose their children to that secondhand smoke all the time. That IS depraved indifference, knowing what we know about the danger. Nothing silly about it at all.
This question has to be the dumbest question I have heard in a while. Are you just anti Yeshivish or are you just another nut looking to pick a fight? Yeshiva bochurim need an outlet, they dont watch movies, hang out in the mall, browse YWN (at least we hope so) etc. I am not condoning the smoking part, it is very wrong and very dangerous however we must pick and choose our battles. I am a smoker and I am smoking since 5th grade, my parents took away my money, grounded me numerous times, punished me in anyway possible, only made things worse. My wife drives me insane about my smoking and it makes things worse. Let us smoke and just daven that WE grow out of our stupid addiction and ridiculous habit. Shomer P’sayim Hashem
whataguy – Your not trying to be a Troll, right?
Toi -“Health- It’s unhealthy; everyone agrees.”
He doesn’t. He said the researchers were biased with their conclusion.
“He’s just pointing out that presenting evidence in a way that shows an obvious bias makes people blow it out of proportion.”
He was talking about the research, not about individual people or even the Gov. If you think the research is flawed -why say -“smoking is unhealthy”?!?!?!?
whataguy -“Yeshiva bochurim need an outlet, they dont watch movies, hang out in the mall, browse YWN (at least we hope so) etc.”
Well how about this? Fressing Chulent Thurs. nite. I think this is a better outlet than smoking, but yet this is Ossur in some Yeshivos, but not smoking.
“I am a smoker and I am smoking since 5th grade, my parents took away my money, grounded me numerous times, punished me in anyway possible, only made things worse.”
Wow! Who gave you your first cig?
“My wife drives me insane about my smoking and it makes things worse.”
Yea -imagine that -She actually cares about you?!? Wow -what a wife! (Goes along with “whataguy”!)
“Let us smoke and just daven that WE grow out of our stupid addiction and ridiculous habit. Shomer P’sayim Hashem”
How about this? Get medical help for your addiction besides just Davening. It’s not a Mitzva to be a Pesi!
whataguy,
You are an addict in denial. Like a typical addict, you seem to say you can’t help it, you blame others, and that you need something to help you relax. In your case it’s tobacco, in others it’s something else. In any case, it’s just rationalization. If people really need an outlet, let them try exercise or playing music or another creative hobby.
The passuk ‘?????? ???) ???? ????? ?) does not apply to someone who knows what he is doing is wrong. That person is not a Peti.
He’s not in denial. smokers are generally not in denial.
Health- the way you pick apart every sentence is annoying.
Health – Toi got it. Not very difficult. Oomis – you left out the word IF in your quote. Clearly you HATE smoking. Clearly I don’t. Let’s get past that. People who smoke, smoke indoors, in front of their children? Perhaps some do. Most people I know, don’t. As far as smoking indoors next to adults, if the area is not designated as a smoking area, it is obnoxious to smoke w/o asking if it’s ok. See, we agree on s/t. As far as your extreme hatred is concerned, IMO you lose all credibility in this area.
Health – to clarify further – I don’t think the methodology of the studies are flawed. What bothers me is after the raw numbers come back, there’s someone sitting there thinking, how can I portray these true numbers in the way that most demonizes smoking? The reason the CDC (center for disease control or the gov.) does this is because “smoking is the #1 preventable cause of death in society” so they are on a mission to demonize it. I don’t like being manipulated by anyone, especially a power figure who thinks they’re acting in my benefit. I’ll decide for myself, thank you. Don’t give me averages over medians, because they are lower. Don’t do tricky things like saying – smoking increases the risk of lung cancer by 2000%. Lung Cancer is one of the deadliest and most common cancers. Every year x amount of people die from cancer. Or saying something like – Every year x amount of people die from smoking-related diseases, when the large majority of people who die from heart attack and stroke are not smokers. When calculating how many years a smoker loses on average, don’t use the life expectancy numbers unless you also include all smokers who surpassed that number. Little tricky things, and they drive me crazy.
Toi -“Health- the way you pick apart every sentence is annoying.”
Yes, isn’t it?
Part of the fun of being a member of the CR.
frumnotyeshivish said:
“As far as smoking indoors next to adults, if the area is not designated as a smoking area, it is obnoxious to smoke w/o asking if it’s ok. “
Yes, many of of find many smokers to be obnoxious. Quite often they don’t understand that they are causing others pain and/or discomfort. Even smokers that smoke outside often don’t realize that by smoking by the door, they stink up the doorway as the rest of us pass through. The smoke often comes inside. And when the smoker comes inside, they stink – their hair stinks, their clothes stink, and their breath stinks.
Health- your a bochur in your early twenties ot late teens just oozing with the hashkafos that your heilig’ rabbeim have taught you and the razor sharp wit that hurreving for the last two years has earned you. get a grip.
I didnt tealize health was oozng with hashkafos, more with sarcasm if you ask me, wich health obviously doesnt since he is sooooo smart. if he has been “hurreving for the last two years”, he surely takes gr8 pains to assure it doesnt show
Toi -“Health- your a bochur in your early twenties ot late teens just oozing with the hashkafos that your heilig’ rabbeim have taught you and the razor sharp wit that hurreving for the last two years has earned you. get a grip.”
Thanks -you just took many years off my life. I feel much younger now.
frumnotyeshivish -“Health – to clarify further – I don’t think the methodology of the studies are flawed. What bothers me is after the raw numbers come back, there’s someone sitting there thinking, how can I portray these true numbers in the way that most demonizes smoking? The reason the CDC (center for disease control or the gov.) does this is because “smoking is the #1 preventable cause of death in society” so they are on a mission to demonize it.”
They are on a mission to demonize it because that’s what their statistics told them.
“I don’t like being manipulated by anyone, especially a power figure who thinks they’re acting in my benefit. I’ll decide for myself, thank you. Don’t give me averages over medians, because they are lower. Don’t do tricky things like saying – smoking increases the risk of lung cancer by 2000%. Lung Cancer is one of the deadliest and most common cancers. Every year x amount of people die from cancer.”
Do you even know how rare it is for a Non-smoker to come down with lung cancer? But keep saying that they are making up the statistics!
“Or saying something like – Every year x amount of people die from smoking-related diseases, when the large majority of people who die from heart attack and stroke are not smokers. When calculating how many years a smoker loses on average, don’t use the life expectancy numbers unless you also include all smokers who surpassed that number. Little tricky things, and they drive me crazy.”
Those little trickly things are based on their statistics. Again don’t tell me that their statistics aren’t flawed, but the way they portray them are. They are saying what their statistics have told them to say. There is no hidden agenda. If you don’t like their statistics -do your own. Or just be like every other smoker -“I don’t care if it’s a good possibility that I’ll die young or come down with a deadly disease -I’m going to smoke anyway -no matter what”!
Health- Never woulda guessed. Guess you camouflage your age too well.
you know i was scannig through this post and i was thinking that if i would smoke all this would do is make me want to smoke more you have to understand why most people smoke its because of insecurities and all this talk of how your only hurting yourself and everyone around you makes them feel more insecure also if you ask smokers most of them would want to quit except they have 101 excuses why they cant so just keep in mind how you would feel if everyone was telling you all this
Health – there is a disconnect between our understanding of “statistics”. Let’s take lung cancer for example. The way I’d imagine a study done is either to measure incidence in a representative sample, or take the total population/population with lung cancer, and withing population with lung cancer smokers/non-smokers. Provided that responsible scientists or statisticians are working on it, the results are indisputable.
My rough math, which took some digging on the CDC’s website, estimates the following incidence: 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer in non-smokers, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer. What does the CDC and its literature, and all healthcare professionals say? 20 times more likely. This number is 100% true, but it is derived from the two incidence rates, and phrased in the way to maximize emotional import. That is problematic. There is someone poring over all the results of the studies, and figuring out how to use the numbers to most demonize smoking.
frumnotyeshivish -I disagree with you. They don’t phrase it the way they researched it because they want the population to get someting out of the research. Just saying one out of this or that -doesn’t mean anything to most people. Most people aren’t even college educated. So they phrase it in a way everybody can understand. Saying 20X more likely -people will say -“Ooh, maybe I shouldn’t smoke because a lot more smokers get lung cancer than Non-smokers”!
Are Electronic Cigarettes Healthy? A Way To Smoke Nicotine Without Tobacco?
ADP) — It’s what many smokers are calling a “miracle technological breakthrough.” But, could making the switch to electronic cigarettes really change your life?
January 24, 2012
The use of electronic cigarettes has skyrocketed over the past 12 months. Creators and product users now say you can enjoy a cheaper healthier cigarette without the bad smells, second-hand smoke, or cancer causing chemicals. With these huge claims, we decided to investigate e-cigarette use amongst users.
After providing multiple electronic cigarette kits to our test group, we received shocking results. First we found that product users did actually save money. The claim from e-cigarette manufactures is that smokers who make the switch can save over $1,000 per year. We found that the actual cost of smoking for our test group was nearly cut in half.
Many doctors are now recommending the product and Dr. Panariello told us that with E-Cigs there is virtually no risk of getting cancer. These conclusions come from studies which show that nicotine is about as equally harmful to your health as caffeine. These studies also show that the real harm in traditional cigarettes comes from the tobacco smoke and the hundreds of additional added chemicals.
With the lack of second-hand smoke, smokers are excited to find that many businesses allow them to smoke e-cigarettes indoors. Many have also received special permission from their employers to smoke e-cigarettes in the work place.
In the United States, over 500,000 smokers have already switched to electronic cigarettes. Sara Silk is one of the many whose life has dramatically changed thanks to the product. She informed us that she “smoked almost two packs a day for 16 years,” and she thought that she would never quit. To her surprise though, when she tried electronic cigarettes she was able to “quit smoking regular cigarettes two days later.” Sara told us, “I recommend this product to anyone who plans on quitting. Unlike gum or patches you actually feel like you’re still smoking, which makes the transition so much easier… I feel like the chains of my addiction have finally been broken for good.”
We have received a number of positive testimonials such as this one and we feel that as more and more Americans are made aware of this new technology, that more and more smokers will make the switch.
Electronic cigarettes can be used with real nicotine cartridges or with zero nicotine to facilitate the ease of quitting for users desiring to do so. Our interviews and research have found that the electronic cigarette will quickly become the #1 choice for smokers looking to lead a healthier lifestyle. With the high cost of smoking traditional cigarettes, and with the danger cigarettes bring to your health, we give our recommendation and “thumbs up” to anyone looking to give these devices a try.
Overall user feedback for this new product has been very positive.
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