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How do we know someone has no diseases? If they lived a certain type of lifestyle, they might have done serious and potentially permanent damage to their bodies and to their chromosomes. I would not dismiss a shidduch out of hand, but I would want to thoroughly investigate the situation.
WIY
There are certain diseases that people could transmit to their spouse if they had a past. That is the reality. Many of these diseases could not even come up right away, it could take many years. A girl who is marrying someone wouldn’t even imagine that she is being put at risk. Now is that fair?
Now in Mexico, before you get married the govt makes you take a blood test to make sure you are not HIV positive. That is for only one of the many infections that could be transmited. Suppose someone comes out positive? Suppose his wife comes up with something after being married for a few years? What should they do, blame it on a blood transfusion? I really don’t want to imagine what that shalom bayis will be like then.
WIY, again I have to say that you are not being logical but totally illogical. Secrets come back to haunt you and bite you in the behind. If you are not upfront with your potential spouse someone else will dig up the dirt and it will come out sooner or later. This is a tremendous sakana for Shalom Bayis and may lead to divorce. I know this for a fact and I have seen this happen. No one likes to be tricked or lied to and in case you haven’t heard lies by omission are also lies. There are gentle ways of telling someone about one’s past without chasing them away. And if a potential spouse chooses not to know well then that is their choice and one they both choose and accept to live with. In that case there are no lies because all the information was offered and rejected.
There are two major past discretions that one would need to discuss. One as mentioned before is drug use and the other is promiscuity. Both of which can have effects in the future. Heavy drug use can damage the brain, can damage major organs as well as cause emotional issues in the future. In addition, once you recover from drug addiction you are considered a recovering addict for the rest of your life. There is also a possibility that your children will be predisposed to alcohol and drug abuse so that is something that you have to be very concerned and careful about, meaning staying away from all forms of substances. In order to do that one would need the support and cooperation of their spouse. Imagine having an alcohol free home without an explanation. I can’t see that happening.
As far as having other partners prior to marriage, aside from the HIV factor, there are other factors which can be experience versus innocence. And of course the emotional factors of comparing one partner to another.
Should a young woman find out that her husband had other women before her and she knew nothing about it, that may end her marriage on the spot. No matter how frum the young man was at the time of the discovery. No matter how eidel or fine he was at that time. He would be looked upon as a liar and a gazlan. He would no longer be seen as “eidel or fine” no matter how much he had changed. Not only would this destroy his marriage, but it can cause HIM to lose bitachon and go back down.
I am telling you WIY, your male attitude and perspective is a very foolish and dangerous one. I am giving you a female perspective and letting you know right now. That if you had anyone in your life that you advised to keep his past a secret and not find a way to gently tell his future spouse that there are things in his past he is not proud of, but he is very proud of the way he has overcome his past and has risen above it and turned his life around; then you are guiding him down a path to disaster. Any bochur that finds themselves in this position should speak to their own Rav and even ask for their assistance in discussing the issue with the young woman.
There is one thing that you said that is quite true. A young man that has to work himself back up from such a low madreigah to such a sweet and emesdik madreigah is someone to admire and not shun. i agree wholeheartedly as I am a champion for Kids-at-risk. And they do deserve every chance in the world to succeed and live a beautiful and fulfilling life. Hashem has picked out their basherts, and those who are truly their sole mates will understand and admire them for who they are and for the courage it took them to be completely honest and respectful of them. Because marriage is based on honesty, trust and mutual respect. Not on lies and secrecy.
It seems that many kids go off due to emotional reasons. Either they were verbally abused by their teachers, principals, Rabbeim, Menahilim….
Why is it that in this generation we are so sensitive and if we are mistreated, we are ready to throw in the towel with regards to Yiddishkeit? Are people more sensitive these days? Or are the Rabbeim less qualified and more insensitive?
If these teachers, principals, Rabbeim, Menahilim, etc. are supposed to be representative of teachers and leaders of Yiddishkeit, which teaches us to have respect for and treat kindly, our fellow Jew, and not shame him,
and then they verbally abuse a student, or shame him in front of an entire class, creating a Chillul Hashem,
what is the student supposed to think?
If the teachers and leaders of Yiddishkeit preach one way and act another way, the students see them as hypocrites and want nothing to do with a Frum lifestyle.
ANONYM613, unfortunately you are correct and that is one of the big issues. We as parents, adults, mechanchim, teachers and Rabbonim have to be exemplary role models of yiddishkeit if we want our children to follow in our footsteps and continue in our heritage.
Many people forget that our mitzvos pertain to how we act to children as well as adults. Hashem does not put an age limitation on bein adom lchaveiro. It is also important to note that when a child seems overburdened and stressed out maybe due to something that is happening in the home, in many cases their mechanchem ignore it instead of address it and try to help the child to lessen the burden. Illness in the family is a huge burden for children and when c”v a parent or a sibling dies people usually have rachmonos and show concern just for the adults, the spouse or the parents who suffered the loss. They think kids are resilient and will just pop back. But that is not the case, kids need a lot of care and attention to help them through a loss. They have a lot of questions and they lose their bitachon and need assurances and reassurances that their bitachon will return. They need to know that Hashem did not abandon them, and that He didn’t punish them by taking away their parent or sibling, and it was nothing that they did that caused it to happen.
When a child need the support and understanding most from the people he relies on the most it is just business as usual.
If I found out my husband had been with another woman and did not tell me about it, our marriage would be over. I may not be entitled to a get, but he certainly would cease being my husband in any way.
If I had found out while we were dating, I still would have married him. We were very close, dated for 1.5 years and divulged many very personal things to each other. I absolutely would have married him, assuming a few things:
1) The previous relationship was over
2) He did not have HIV or other STD
3) He understood what caused the relationship and dealt with that as well
I think my husband is an amazing person and absolutely worth it. No person is perfect and I accept him for who he is. If that had been part of his past (it wasn’t), that would have been fine. Lying about it would not.
If a guy is going to keep a secret, then a girl should also. Why should a girl lose out a great guy because of her past but a guy won’t?
Started your marriage on a lie is a bad idea.
If the girl doesn’t want to marry you for past experiences, then she isn’t the girl for you.
“Ok you dated 1.5 years. Mthats not the norm for most circles.”
Promiscuity before marriage is much further from the norm than the above.
If a girl kept her past hidden and did not tell her husband that she was not a besulah when she got married, would he not feel the same way? In many cases there is no blood the first night and there are many possible reasons for that these days. Or she fakes the blood somehow, but the truth comes out later, then its ok because she turned her life around and a Rav paskened that one does not have to divulge their past?
Don’t you think that a man would be just as devastated and want a divorce?
her kesubah would be invalid, since a besulah receives a different kesubah than one who isn’t. the marriage itself i believe is null and void without a divorce. (this is not the case in the reverse situation.)
So right, this is not a matter of halacha that we are discussing here it is a matter of an emotional nature and human nature. It is irrelevant that the Kesubah is invalid, would he marry her again then with a new kesubah? The kesubah issue can be easily rectified.
The question is would he not feel betrayed? Would he just continue business as usual or would he say the kesubah is invalid and you are no longer my wife!
WIY, if I were dating in the shidduch system knowing there are men who hide their past, what would my motivation be for revealing my own? Especially if no one will find out.
And what if a woman is still a besulah but has a past? Should she reveal that? Technically, she doesn’t have to for the ketubah.
Honesty really is the best policy.
I think the problem is that we spend to much time in the YWN Coffee room and little time with our kids.
WIY, the point that you are dancing around with is that no one can be sure that the truth will not come out. NO ONE can know whether He or SHE will or WON’T find out. THAT is an impossibility. There is no way that YOU or anyone else can know that. So you are talking about an impossible situation. AND more likely than not in todays society of loshon horah you can probably count on the spouse finding out more so than not.
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